Formal Night Dilemma with No Solution

[Babo02]

BTW - this is what I did when confronted with that situation. One of the outfits I had packed for informal night was a long silk patterned skirt, that has a stylized hem line, with a dressy black top. It wasn't the type of outfit that I would normally wear on formal night but it fit right in.

 

Many of us go on these cruises to see the world and not to dress up. I wore the same outfit all three formal nights as did most of the women at our table (who we had never met before).

 

If I had met and liked you, I wouldn't have cared what you were wearing or how many times you wore the same outfit to dinner. You may enjoy dressing up and I may not, but we can still be friends and enjoy the same meal in the same dining room.

 

I think this thread has been discussed up on every cruise line forum and it's unfortunate that so many people are shallow enough to only be concerned with clothing.

[FinelyCruising]

I think this thread has been discussed up on every cruise line forum and it's unfortunate that so many people are shallow enough to only be concerned with clothing.

 

No, It is not discussed on every cruiseline forum. In certain other forums people already know what is expected of them and there is no discussion needed.:p

[C 2 C]

it's unfortunate that so many people are shallow enough to only be concerned with clothing.

 

And similarly I'm of the view that some people are so shallow as not to care at all. It's a complex society where certain standards are implied but where some people choose to totally ignore them. We all find ways to be happy in our own corner of the world. This is not a single issue problem. People will never totally agree on anything whether it is the quality or quantity of food, dress code or the lack or interpretation of one. The problem is one of attitude towards fellow passengers. We all have images of what we want on our cruise or at our table. If some guy sat down at my dinner table with a muscle shirt and baseball cap reversed, I have already judged his attitude and we would not be compatible.

[woodofpine]

One is to judge another person's 'attitude' by what they wear??

 

Not a word spoken, but you KNOW this silent neighbor's 'attitude' by muscle shirt, blue blazer (what night?), or bhourka? Really... That IS fascinating... Whose attitude again?

 

Could there be the remote possibility, you think too much? (It's a complex... society) ;)

[C 2 C]

One is to judge another person's 'attitude' by what they wear??

 

Much more eloquently expressed:

“Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy, / But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy; / For the apparel oft proclaims the man.”

William Shakespeare

 

"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society."

Mark Twain

[Karynanne]

One is to judge another person's 'attitude' by what they wear??

 

Not a word spoken, but you KNOW this silent neighbor's 'attitude' by muscle shirt, blue blazer (what night?), or bhourka? Really... That IS fascinating... Whose attitude again?

 

Could there be the remote possibility, you think too much? (It's a complex... society) ;)

 

Now wouldn't a "bhourka" be considered "formalwear?" I wonder if some are embellished with sequins...

[Bridge Maven]

Earlier in this thread I posted in jest that Bernard Madoff wore very fancy suits while he destroyed the lives of many people with his ponzi scheme, but I was only half kidding.

 

When I was growing up I was taught to always be appropriately dressed but my parents also said that it was important for us to find a career that we enjoyed and then do our job as well as possible while making a positive contribution to society. They also emphasized that by living a productive and honest life a person will feel good about themself and gain the respect of their peers. At that time no truer words were ever spoken.

 

Unfortunately, in recent years people started judging others by their wealth and lifestyle without even caring about what they did to earn it or if they acquired their fortune honestly. The consequences of that change in thinking is obvious.

 

This is why I don't like to judge people by things that I consider to be superficial, such as how they dress.

[VTSKIandCRUISEGUY]

I was at 2 weddings in the last few months, where good old-style tuxes were not the norm, even though these were black-tie affairs.

At the most recent, a fancy shin-dig in Manhattan, I was one of the few wearing tux with bow tie & cumberbun. Less than 1/2 of the men were wearing tuxes, but mostly with regular white shirts and plain black ties. Most of the rest wore dark (mainly black) suits. I felt so out of place, even though I was wearing the "traditional" black tie outfit.

 

I will feel very comfortable wearing nice slacks and a sports jacket on my October Constellation cruise. Maybe I'll bring a tie, so that if it turns out to be a very formal crowd, I can always put it on.

[Can'tstopcruising]

My husband bought a new tux et al two years ago for our son's wedding. He prefers the bow tie, wing collar, cummerbund etc.

 

The young now wear shirt with a regular collar and a regular tie.

 

Bridge Maven, I agree, all too many people are impressed by wealth. It's nonsense! I am impressed by health!

[woodofpine]

NJSKI - YOU'VE got some sort of ATTITUDE Buster!! :D

 

Mark Twain and Shakespeare... Clements was generally correct, but usually tongue in cheek - so I don't recommend his wisdom on the Constellation cruisers 3/13/10...

 

W.S. 300 years earlier subtly and significantly qualified his comment with 'oft' which keeps an open mind over "I have already judged...":eek:; I doubt the Bard judged books by their covers... ;)

 

Bridge Maven - years ago I had a fine looking secy-asst. Always dressed to the 9's in the finest threads she was - drove a big SUV "Eddie Bauer" edition leather interior... Very 'compatible' I'm sure... except with her creditors when the bankruptcy was filed... they didn't like her 'attitude'... :D

[FinelyCruising]

In this circumstance, I really think that suggesting people who judge others have no right to do so, yet find they feel they are quite right themselves to object to a dress code they already judged as unsuitable for their purposes are quite off the mark.

[sunshine 229]

One is to judge another person's 'attitude' by what they wear??

 

Not a word spoken, but you KNOW this silent neighbor's 'attitude' by muscle shirt, blue blazer (what night?), or bhourka? Really... That IS fascinating... Whose attitude again?

 

Could there be the remote possibility, you think too much? (It's a complex... society) ;)

 

 

I think you miss the point that what he is being judged on is not only what he is wearing, but also the fact that he is chosing to disregard the dress code which he has been informed is expected. The appearance of the clothing may be a part of it, but the unwillingness to follow a simple social code is a bigger part.

[sunshine 229]

Earlier in this thread I posted in jest that Bernard Madoff wore very fancy suits while he destroyed the lives of many people with his ponzi scheme, but I was only half kidding.

 

When I was growing up I was taught to always be appropriately dressed but my parents also said that it was important for us to find a career that we enjoyed and then do our job as well as possible while making a positive contribution to society. They also emphasized that by living a productive and honest life a person will feel good about themself and gain the respect of their peers. At that time no truer words were ever spoken.

 

Unfortunately, in recent years people started judging others by their wealth and lifestyle without even caring about what they did to earn it or if they acquired their fortune honestly. The consequences of that change in thinking is obvious.

 

This is why I don't like to judge people by things that I consider to be superficial, such as how they dress.

 

But would you be willing to judge them by their willingness or unwillingness to put themselves to a little trouble to make other people around them comfortable or happy.

 

This whole dress discussion cuts two ways and I mention again...if clothing is not important why is it so important to some not to wear what is requested in the dress code. It seems that whenever the phrase "it's no big thing" comes up it is always in the context, "It's no big thing so let me do what I want" not in the context, "it's no big thing so I'll just do as requested to please the people around me."

 

Obviously following the dress code is a BIG THING to those who flaunt it so why should it not be a BIG THING to those who object?

[Can'tstopcruising]

But would you be willing to judge them by their willingness or unwillingness to put themselves to a little trouble to make other people around them comfortable or happy.

 

This whole dress discussion cuts two ways and I mention again...if clothing is not important why is it so important to some not to wear what is requested in the dress code. It seems that whenever the phrase "it's no big thing" comes up it is always in the context, "It's no big thing so let me do what I want" not in the context, "it's no big thing so I'll just do as requested to please the people around me."

 

Obviously following the dress code is a BIG THING to those who flaunt it so why should it not be a BIG THING to those who object?

 

Maybe it's a big thing to those who flaunt it and to those who object, but no big thing to the rest of us.

[jgnova]

I like getting dressed for dinner because of the way it makes me feel. Taking cruises is the one vacation mode we can afford where someone else takes care of our needs for the time we're away. My wife and I both work and then come home to deal with the normal household stuff (no maids or butlers on our government paychecks, sorry). So getting on a cruise gives us the luxury equivalent to staying in a $400/night hotel with all of the meals thrown in.

 

Getting dressed and going to a nice dining room where someone else brings our meal while I enjoy talking with my lovely wife, who is also dressed in something nicer than she wears to work or around the house, and getting to know our table mates is a major reason for taking a cruise. People who are dressed formally tend to act formally. They eat slowly, talk softly (after they've swallowed their food), don't interrupt others, etc. People dressed as they do when they're sitting at a ball game tend to act like they're at a ball game.

 

The undergrad school I attended in the mid- to late-sixties had dress-up dinners two nights a week. Yes, a lot of us objected to it (one friend came to dinner one night wearing the required jacket & tie but not much else as his form of 60's rebellion), but most of us did manage to change out of the jeans and T-shirts for those meals. And the dining room felt different on those nights - it was quieter and the meals lasted longer.

 

So, to defend Xellent's comment about someone showing up in a baseball cap, I would concur in the opinion about that person. Hats belong outside, T-shirts belong on the beach or playing field - and the person who insists on his/her "right" to dress (or not dress) that way is infringing on my right to enjoy a quiet, formal meal - and is probably the grown-up version of the adolescents who show up at our house every Halloween in their school clothes expecting a treat. They don't get it that the costume is part of the ritual - and yes, wearing a tux or gown is like wearing a costume on stage - and the associated formal behavior during and after dinner is part of the role that we enjoy playing to our own applause.

 

Yes, we keep beating this obviously dead but stubborn horse - and Celebrity would really help through consistent enforcement of their published dress codes and continuing to differentiate themselves from RC by promoting themselves as the affordable luxury line with a focus on relaxation and quiet over climbing walls and ice rinks.

 

j

[sunshine 229]

I love your post jgnova, especially this part:

 

"and the associated formal behavior during and after dinner is part of the role that we enjoy playing to our own applause."

[2sunny]

I've read posting after posting about people who ignore the dress code on formal nights. How gauche. How rude. How self-centered.

 

Now we've become part of the problem.

 

We're bk'd on a Panama Canal cruise in Oct. Dh informs me that he absolutely refuses to take a suit. His best offer is a navy sportcoat with cotton pants. I suggested he could rent a tux and save on luggage space. I could have saved my breath. I'm not even sure he'll wear a tie. (I plan to pack one myself just in case he happens to "forget" which he's been known to do before.)

 

I know they'll let him into dinner b/c I've seen people wearing jeans and t-shirts on formal night--I just never expected to be part of the you-can't-mean-us crowd. Will there be other men similarly dressed, or should I pretend I never met the man before that evening?

 

M/R

 

My first question is - is this 'really' OK with you? Or would you like to dress up and fit in with everyone else?

IF your answer is yes - I would tell him that 'you' would like to participate, 'properly' in the formal nights. I am willing to bet that over the years that the 2 of you have been together YOU have done many, many things, that you do not particularly want to do 'for him'. I think perhaps he could consider 'doing formal night' for you!

I hear you say "he does not want to wear a tie", that sounds to me like he is only thinking of himself, would he reconsider and think about the fact that this is a shared vacation and perhaps YOU would like him to wear a tie. My DH wears a tie to work every day and yet gladly wear his tux on formal nights.

Formal nights can be very romantic.

On every Celebrity cruise we have been on we have seen cruisers asked to leave the restaurant because of their inappropriate dress. We have seen MANY turned away at the door. On one formal night I had a 'person' that was at the table next to us, but due to seating was back to back with me removed. He was wearing torn, ugly jeans, dirty boots, a graphic tee shirt and leather jacket. The maitre'd' apologized to our table and he was asked to leave and change his clothes, if he dressed properly, he could return!

On our last cruise there was a table of 3 elderly couples, by all appearances they were quite wealthy and from what they said they had been cruising for many, many years. For the first formal night the ladies were dressed properly but the men had on dress pants and short sleeve Cuban style sport shirts (very expensive looking.) Near the end of the meal the maitre'd stopped at their table and very politely explained to them that they would not be permitted to return to the other 2 formal nights unless they dressed as the rules stated. They threw a fit, talked about how important they were, how they each were in an expensive suite, how many times they had cruised, etc., etc. But they never returned to the dining room again.

Celebrity is quite serious about their dress code and I applaud them for it. IF I am sitting near anyone that is not dressed properly I ask that they be removed. EVERYONE knows the rules before they pay their first dime. IF you do not intend to go by the rules, eat in your room or sail Carnival - they do not care how you dress. Sorry - but rules are for everyone.

Rules say you have to wear a bathing suit in the pool - would you like it if my husband and I decided to swim in the nude ? How about if we reached over with our hands and started eating off of your plate? How about if we took your seat while you were in the pool and threw all of your things on the deck? Your husband knows what is proper behavior - he is acting like a little boy that says "I am going to hold by breath until I get what I want"! AND YOU ARE LETTING HIM GET AWAY WITH IT!

If he will dress properly tell him you both have to eat in the room because he does not understand proper manners. What would you do if this were your 6 year old child?

[Scottygirl1]

I like getting dressed for dinner because of the way it makes me feel. Taking cruises is the one vacation mode we can afford where someone else takes care of our needs for the time we're away. My wife and I both work and then come home to deal with the normal household stuff (no maids or butlers on our government paychecks, sorry). So getting on a cruise gives us the luxury equivalent to staying in a $400/night hotel with all of the meals thrown in.

 

Getting dressed and going to a nice dining room where someone else brings our meal while I enjoy talking with my lovely wife, who is also dressed in something nicer than she wears to work or around the house, and getting to know our table mates is a major reason for taking a cruise. People who are dressed formally tend to act formally. They eat slowly, talk softly (after they've swallowed their food), don't interrupt others, etc. People dressed as they do when they're sitting at a ball game tend to act like they're at a ball game.

 

The undergrad school I attended in the mid- to late-sixties had dress-up dinners two nights a week. Yes, a lot of us objected to it (one friend came to dinner one night wearing the required jacket & tie but not much else as his form of 60's rebellion), but most of us did manage to change out of the jeans and T-shirts for those meals. And the dining room felt different on those nights - it was quieter and the meals lasted longer.

 

So, to defend Xellent's comment about someone showing up in a baseball cap, I would concur in the opinion about that person. Hats belong outside, T-shirts belong on the beach or playing field - and the person who insists on his/her "right" to dress (or not dress) that way is infringing on my right to enjoy a quiet, formal meal - and is probably the grown-up version of the adolescents who show up at our house every Halloween in their school clothes expecting a treat. They don't get it that the costume is part of the ritual - and yes, wearing a tux or gown is like wearing a costume on stage - and the associated formal behavior during and after dinner is part of the role that we enjoy playing to our own applause.

 

Yes, we keep beating this obviously dead but stubborn horse - and Celebrity would really help through consistent enforcement of their published dress codes and continuing to differentiate themselves from RC by promoting themselves as the affordable luxury line with a focus on relaxation and quiet over climbing walls and ice rinks.

 

j

 

Well said, bravo!!! Exactly my feelings. :o

[J & G]

IF I am sitting near anyone that is not dressed properly I ask that they be removed.

 

We should consider ourselves forewarned....the fashion police really do exist....and they might be sitting right next to you! So dress appropriately!

 

Keep up the vigilance.....the dining room will be a better place for it!:D

[YOW]

jgnova, thank you for the eloquent post.

 

This thread could have ended there -- now it's all over but the shouting... right, 2sunny? ;)

[hcat]

If you go to the prom ,dress for the prom!

[Bridge Maven]

We should consider ourselves forewarned....the fashion police really do exist....and they might be sitting right next to you! So dress appropriately!

 

Keep up the vigilance.....the dining room will be a better place for it!:D

 

It appears that the fashion police only exist on cruise critic because I have never observed this situation on a Celebrity cruise ship. However, based on our experience, most passengers either follow the dress code perfectly or wear something close enough to fit in.

 

A passenger who wears something that fits in, such as a sports jacket and tie, would not have any affect on my overall enjoyment of a cruise but I would be turned off enough to leave the dining room if I ever encountered a passenger who was rude enough to make an issue over the way a table mate was dressed.

[woodofpine]

In this circumstance, I really think that suggesting people who judge others have no right to do so, yet find they feel they are quite right themselves to object to a dress code they already judged as unsuitable for their purposes are quite off the mark.

 

People will do what they do... they always do... And people have 'the right' to judge until they're blue in the face...

 

My point is that you CAN Judge until you're blue in the face, but the only thing you're executing is your own contentment. Regardless of how many commiserators you gather, or how 'right' by rule you are; That's an absolutely ridicules expenditure of mental energy!

 

I think you miss the point that what he is being judged on is not only what he is wearing, but also the fact that he is chosing to disregard the dress code which he has been informed is expected. The appearance of the clothing may be a part of it, but the unwillingness to follow a simple social code is a bigger part.

 

OK - they're non-conformist, and they don't 'share your values' in this little slice of life. So - you're right. How unhappy are YOU all going to make YOURSELF over it? The notion that these folks set out with intent to rent space in your head is almost funny.

 

Maybe it's a big thing to those who flaunt it and to those who object' date=' but no big thing to the rest of us.[/quote']

 

Amen. One person's 'flaunt' is another person's 'What? Oh.'

[Bridge Maven]

Within my lifetime acceptable attire for various situations has evolved considerably. Maybe men who wear sports jackets and ties instead of a suit or tux on formal night are one step ahead of the game and will be trend setters :)

[FinelyCruising]

A passenger who wears something that fits in, such as a sports jacket and tie, would not have any affect on my overall enjoyment of a cruise but I would be turned off enough to leave the dining room if I ever encountered a passenger who was rude enough to make an issue over the way a table mate was dressed.

 

BUT, people just might be ready to select a better cruise line than Celebrity because of the constant insistence by people to dumb it down to a diminshed level. And people wonder why there is no more lobster.:cool: