Panama Canal widening Freedom Class?

When the Panama Canal widening is finished will it be able to take Freedom or Voyager Class ships?

Has anyone heard any info on when the work in the Panama should be able for traffic?

Thanks in advance.

When the Panama Canal widening is finished will it be able to take Freedom or Voyager Class ships?

Has anyone heard any info on when the work in the Panama should be able for traffic?

Thanks in advance.

I thought I read that the new locks would be large enough to handle Freedom and Voyager class ships, but that the ships are too tall for the Bridge of the Americas.

I thought I read that the new locks would be large enough to handle Freedom and Voyager class ships, but that the ships are too tall for the Bridge of the Americas.

According to Wikipedia, Bridge of the Americas has a 201 foot clearance at high tide.

I think that does constrain some of the bigger cruise ships.

Theron

A little while ago they were talking about a April 2015 opening, maybe a little optimism has set in because the latest unofficial rumblings are January 2015. So perhaps in any event the first half of 2015 might be a good target date.

As Bob pointed out with the Bridge of Americas is somewhat of a problem, but I don't think it is a complete deal killer. The Bridge presently has a clearance of 201' at max high water, Freedom/Voyager class have to be under 213' in order to clear the Great Belt Bridge for delivery from the shipyard. Looks like it's a no fit... however present Canal policies allow ships with an air draft of 205' to pass on a case by case basis. Now you add into the calculations that the tides at the Bridge have a range of 20'... so "theoretically" you could add another almost 20' to the 201' clearance with timing of max low water. There is some wiggle room here, I just really don't know how far they would wish to go. also, I really don't know what the exact air draft of the Freedom/Voyager ships is or what (or if any) modifications that could be made to trim their air draft.

Any other thoughts about something larger than a Vision class ship being able to make the Panama Canal crossing once the expansion is finished in fall 2015 (maybe)?

Still want to plan for Fall 2015 Panama Canal cruise, but a larger ship would make planning easier.

Any other thoughts about something larger than a Vision class ship being able to make the Panama Canal crossing once the expansion is finished in fall 2015 (maybe)?

 

Still want to plan for Fall 2015 Panama Canal cruise, but a larger ship would make planning easier.

The Radiance class can fit through the canal now, though I don't believe there are any transits planned for Radiance class ships. However, even after the widening, there's still the problem of of insufficient vertical clearance for Voyager/Freedom class at the Bridge of the Americas. I've not heard any news about the bridge issue.

One of my pics from years gone by:D

Bridge of Americas 47 years ago

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=250173&d=1351612676

When the Panama Canal widening is finished will it be able to take Freedom or Voyager Class ships?

Has anyone heard any info on when the work in the Panama should be able for traffic?

Thanks in advance.

At the welcome back party on FOS in May, that question was asked of the captain. His response was no.

Not sure that RCI wants to pay the fee for bringing a ship that size through.

Not sure that RCI wants to pay the fee for bringing a ship that size through.

Actually it won't be that bad... in a manner of speaking. Cruise ships of that size go by passenger berth which is $134/per. Usually government fees and taxes on your fare are a tad larger for a Canal cruise than a similar length non Canal cruise... so you know who really pays it in the end:)!

This question was asked at Captain's Corner last week on Allure and Captain Johnny said they have no plans to send any larger ships to the Canal and additionally mentioned they have no plans for any west coast sailings either.

This question was asked at Captain's Corner last week on Allure and Captain Johnny said they have no plans to send any larger ships to the Canal and additionally mentioned they have no plans for any west coast sailings either.

Darn!:(

One of my pics from years gone by:D

 

Bridge of Americas 47 years ago

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=250173&d=1351612676

Not trying to one up you... but here are a couple of my contributions and yes, I took the pictures:D. Same bridge... different angle. But I swear it could not have been 47 years ago:eek:!

Not trying to one up you... but here are a couple of my contributions and yes, I took the pictures:D. Same bridge... different angle. But I swear it could not have been 47 years ago:eek:!

 

Xcellent pics. Wouldn't it be wild if we were there exactly the same time:D

read the canal opening has been delayed. Now expecting completion about July 2015. (pushed back from April). Was hoping some new ships would make a full transit through. Nothing has been set by any cruise line that far in advance.

read the canal opening has been delayed. Now expecting completion about July 2015. (pushed back from April). Was hoping some new ships would make a full transit through. Nothing has been set by any cruise line that far in advance.

I just came off of a Panama vacation and visited the locks... actually had dinner at the Captains table on the Vision with the lead Authority for the new Locks. He brought all the blueprints for the locks for the Capt and "talked shop" with him for quite a length of time.

I asked him point blank how long the completion delay will be, and he mentioned "hopefully Dec 2015". There are only 4 of the new gates delivered from Italy... 16 more still in Italy and the company to transport them went bankrupt. They are looking for another solution. There's also some "extremely complex" issues regarding the electronics/cabling/etc needed to be installed along the entire length of the locks. For the most part most of the labour has been local (Latin American and primarily Panamanian) but it seems their seeing issues with next the step in getting hi tech labour in that the locals cannot do.

Our tour drove right through the area where the new locks will be built, a drive that will no longer exist when the new canal is dug up as a bridge will have to be in place. Also witnessing the amount of work so far completed, I personally mentioned that I cannot see anything being completed unitl 2020! I really can't... the amount of work yet to do is astronimical, I can't see it being done ny 2015 when projects like the big dig in Boston for example were over 15 years.

Having said that, he wasn't sure that bigger cruise liners would go through anyways. The new locks will hold approx 1200 foot length and 176 foot wide ships (with 2 foot clearance each side) ... so far so good for Yoyager class, but Voyager is 207 feet high. He did mention the issue will be the bridge and not the locks.

The other issue is cost... The highest price paid so far for any ship going theu the locks was the NCL Dawn (per Capt Srecko) at about $450,000. That's based on gross tonnage/capacity... The Legend for example would've been somewhere between $300,000-$350,000! I can just imagine what the Voayger would cost for RCL... and divide that back to the per person cabin costs of the paying customer. May not be at all profitable to bring a big ship through even if the bridge was high enough anyways.

I just came off of a Panama vacation and visited the locks... actually had dinner at the Captains table on the Vision with the lead Authority for the new Locks. He brought all the blueprints for the locks for the Capt and "talked shop" with him for quite a length of time.

 

I asked him point blank how long the completion delay will be, and he mentioned "hopefully Dec 2015". There are only 4 of the new gates delivered from Italy... 16 more still in Italy and the company to transport them went bankrupt. They are looking for another solution. There's also some "extremely complex" issues regarding the electronics/cabling/etc needed to be installed along the entire length of the locks. For the most part most of the labour has been local (Latin American and primarily Panamanian) but it seems their seeing issues with next the step in getting hi tech labour in that the locals cannot do.

 

Our tour drove right through the area where the new locks will be built, a drive that will no longer exist when the new canal is dug up as a bridge will have to be in place. Also witnessing the amount of work so far completed, I personally mentioned that I cannot see anything being completed unitl 2020! I really can't... the amount of work yet to do is astronimical, I can't see it being done ny 2015 when projects like the big dig in Boston for example were over 15 years.

 

Having said that, he wasn't sure that bigger cruise liners would go through anyways. The new locks will hold approx 1200 foot length and 176 foot wide ships (with 2 foot clearance each side) ... so far so good for Yoyager class, but Voyager is 207 feet high. He did mention the issue will be the bridge and not the locks.

 

The other issue is cost... The highest price paid so far for any ship going theu the locks was the NCL Dawn (per Capt Srecko) at about $450,000. That's based on gross tonnage/capacity... The Legend for example would've been somewhere between $300,000-$350,000! I can just imagine what the Voayger would cost for RCL... and divide that back to the per person cabin costs of the paying customer. May not be at all profitable to bring a big ship through even if the bridge was high enough anyways.

Thanks for the very interesting back channel info... can't get enough, never seems to be enough real news coming from the project.

I had been curious to know what the actual air draft for the Voyager class ships was. I knew it was "around" 210'... being only 207 is even better if they ever decide to bring one of these class of ships through the Canal. The Pacific entrance of the Canal has a considerable tide and even with one of their "higher" low tides the absolute distance between the height of the water and the bridge would be in the vicinity of 216' at slack water. I just don't what sort of margins the ship operators and Canal people could be comfortable with. Perhaps there are some modifications that can be made to one of those ships' air draft that would not be prohibitive.

The financial difficulties with the company transporting the gates tho the Canal is certainly not anything that has surfaced in all the stuff I have read. That could be huge, the good thing is the ship that is transporting the new gates has already delivered 4 of them to the Atlantic side. Since the ship is already in service perhaps it will be just a matter some renegotiation.

There probably concerns as to how profitable sending one of the larger class ships to the west coast, in spite of the sticker shock of the Canal tolls, I don't think that will be a stumbling block as much as much as the ship being as profitable as they would like it to be. The bloom falling off the Mariner's Pacific rose isn't so long ago. The toll for the Canal is actually a charge that is passed directly to the cruise passenger. Present Canal tolls for large passenger ships is $134/berth occupied or not. I was just looking at the Government Fees and Taxes portion of some cruises and all of the Canal cruises were well north of $300pp for a 10 day partial Canal cruise. The GF/Tax of a similar length Caribbean cruise was only $135. The cruise lines are able to keep the sticker shock out of the cruise fare in this manner by not having to include the tolls in their fare.

I have tried to find out why that NCL ship paid such a high rate for a transit of the Canal. It is basically a similar sized Panamax ship with around 2200 berths, so it should have been in the 300 to 350k range as similar sized cruise ships. The only reason why that I can come up with is they did not have an advanced booking (which costs $35000 above the tolls) and had to buy a transit slot on bid. The Canal offers one Panamax slot in each direction to the highest bidder daily.

Thanks again for sharing.

Actually it won't be that bad... in a manner of speaking. Cruise ships of that size go by passenger berth which is $134/per. Usually government fees and taxes on your fare are a tad larger for a Canal cruise than a similar length non Canal cruise... so you know who really pays it in the end:)!

Cannot happen because of physical size, but just for conversation.........$134/berth X 3600 berths = $482,400. Not exactly chump change.

Cannot happen because of physical size, but just for conversation.........$134/berth X 3600 berths = $482,400. Not exactly chump change.

I'm not sure what you mean because of physical size as it the ships can fit through the new Canal locks as presently configured and the math can be made to work on the bridge in question. You are correct $482,000 is not amount you going to fish out of the sofas, but the economies of scale make a ship with 3600 berths no more expensive to transit the Canal than a ship with 2000 berths on a per passenger basis. You are taking more "cargo" through the Canal so the price goes up:).

Any other thoughts about something larger than a Vision class ship being able to make the Panama Canal crossing once the expansion is finished in fall 2015 (maybe)?

Heck-I'd be thrilled on a Vision class and on a Partial. That's what I really wish they would bring back!!

Work does not allow us to do a full transit nor do all those sea days appeal to us but could swing and enjoy the Partial itinerary for sure.:)

This question was asked at Captain's Corner last week on Allure and Captain Johnny said they have no plans to send any larger ships to the Canal and additionally mentioned they have no plans for any west coast sailings either.

Isn't he the Captain who stated that the Mariner would never abandon Florida as her home port? Perhaps he isn't as privy to the company's decision making process as he would like you to believe.;)

A little while ago they were talking about a April 2015 opening, maybe a little optimism has set in because the latest unofficial rumblings are January 2015. So perhaps in any event the first half of 2015 might be a good target date.

 

As Bob pointed out with the Bridge of Americas is somewhat of a problem, but I don't think it is a complete deal killer. The Bridge presently has a clearance of 201' at max high water, Freedom/Voyager class have to be under 213' in order to clear the Great Belt Bridge for delivery from the shipyard. Looks like it's a no fit... however present Canal policies allow ships with an air draft of 205' to pass on a case by case basis. Now you add into the calculations that the tides at the Bridge have a range of 20'... so "theoretically" you could add another almost 20' to the 201' clearance with timing of max low water. There is some wiggle room here, I just really don't know how far they would wish to go. also, I really don't know what the exact air draft of the Freedom/Voyager ships is or what (or if any) modifications that could be made to trim their air draft.

About 35 years ago, I took a drillship under the Bridge of the Americas for a canal transit. We had the big drilling derrick sticking up, but I don't know the exact air draft we had (gee, it wasn't that long ago, you'd think I could pull up that figure!:p). Any way, we had to ballast to maximum draft, fold down a 10' high A-frame on the top of the derrick, and pass under the bridge at low tide. We had to have the Chief Pilot of the Canal do the piloting for that leg, and we calculated there would be 6' of clearance.

As we got closer to the bridge, the traffic on it stopped to see whether we would hit (I would have sped off the bridge if I thought it would get hit), and the guy we sent to the top of the derrick with a radio was last seen hauling a** down the ladder, so we were a little concerned. We made it.

Doing this with a cruise ship would most likely require some "parking" time to match the tide window with an available transit slot, and as for us, it cost a premium for the close clearance and all precautions the Canal Authority took. Granted, this is when the canal was under US operation, but if anything, the Panamanians have increased the "extras" they charge.

My neighbor (both here in FL and Panama) was a senior pilot for the Canal and had a similar experience with the Crane Titan which came to the Canal from Long Beach in the late 90s. The boom had to be placed in such a manner and they had to wait just south of the BOA for absolute low water so they could get it under. I suspect that in the case of the Voyager class ships having an air draft of 207' and the Canal's 205' they maybe close enough to come to some sort of accommodation. You are absolutely correct about the "extra" charges that this sort of operation may come with. The Canal authorities have been far from bashful in tacking on the extras or raising tolls for that matter. I just wonder what the tallest vessel, rig, crane or whatever they have eased under that bridge.

Of course this whole discussion may be all be for naught if they don't have plans to bring one of the "tall" ships through.

I'm not sure what you mean because of physical size as it the ships can fit through the new Canal locks as presently configured and the math can be made to work on the bridge in question. You are correct $482,000 is not amount you going to fish out of the sofas, but the economies of scale make a ship with 3600 berths no more expensive to transit the Canal than a ship with 2000 berths on a per passenger basis. You are taking more "cargo" through the Canal so the price goes up:).

I was referring to the height issue from a practical point of view, not purely mathematical. Could clear the bridge at low tide, but there could be trouble at peak high water, and since there is no way to coordinate every sailing with low water, it doesn't seem very practical. The other alternative would be some kind of modification to the stack, but I just don't see the costs justifying the sailings of the larger ships. My free opinion, and you know what they say...."Free opinions are usually worth exactly what you paid for them ;)

Id love to go on a Panama Canal cruise, I just don't think I would enjoy a smaller ship then what I am used to going on..