The truth about cruise staff working conditions and pay?

[nijh]

Thebooler - I'm just guessing here but I imagine they are told that must not treat any tips as 'theirs' until the end of the cruise.

[4Sheets2theWind]

I watched the C4 programme, and being a typical Brit I struggle with the idea that X can't just pay a decent wage and do away with the tipping culture. Sure they would need to communicate this to the prospective cruisers, but if, as so many have said, cruisers understand that the gratuities are a necessary part of the total cruise cost then surely those cruisers are sophisticated enough to understand when those costs have been included in the base price. I'm afraid that the fact that auto-tip a norm in the cruise industry at the moment just doesn't carry that much weight for me. Norms change, and I'd like to see X be a leader on not just a follower in terms of employee welfare and staff motivation. (BTW, has auto-tip always been part of cruise culture, or has it become more prevalent in the past few decades as cruising has gone more mass-market?)

 

The C4 programme made it clear that if the tips are short then then X make up the wage, but that was still only to a very low level - approximately half the expected wage if I recall correctly. It just seems to me that too many low paid staff are carrying too much risk. The actual wage they receive is at the whim of the passengers, particularly so for backroom staff (who in some cases will have little or no influence on individual passengers generosity). I recall a thread somewhere on CC a while back where a cruise had a particularly bad experience. I can't remember the cruise line, but it was something like extreme weather, novo-virus or mechanical failure which adversely affected many if not all passengers. The upshot was at the end of the cruise a lot of passengers were not happy how the cruise line had handled the situation, and showed their displeasure by removing the auto-tip. Apparently some of the crew were in tears as they had worked their butts off for a week, and through no fault of their own were going to earn a lot less than they would normally get.

 

Finally a challenge to Mr Bayley. If you genuinely believe that tipping is the way to go for X try this…The Bayley-tip. Its a virtual auto-tip (no real monetary value to the cruiser). The cruiser can opt to remove it in exactly same ways as auto-tip. For unsold cabins the Baley-tip is zero. Mr. Baley draws a minimum wage salary (for the country he is resident in - US I assume). At the end of the year, the bonus/stock options/any additional renumeration or benefits to which he is entitled based on the performance of X (which I assume already makes up a large % of his total package) are multiplied by the % of Baley-tips still in place - fleet wide. If all cabins were full and not a single passenger removed it then get gets 100%, if not he gets less. Then he would be just as susceptible to the whims of the disgruntled passenger or non-tipper. Fair?

[Ma Bell]

I give up. It works for the great majority of cruisers and if it becomes bad enough on certain itineraries I'm sure they will just automatically add them on for certain cruises or booking areas, just as they have increased bar prices on certain cruises to make up for the removal of gratuities on bar tabs.

[Suzy Smith]

Suzy Smith - yes they do have to hand them in.

 

If Dispatches had done anything like a decent job in reporting rather than just, and I quote, "an exposé" then indeed this may have been raised.

 

Do you have evidence that they have to hand them in or is it just something you have heard? There seems to be a lot of guesswork and hearsay on these boards about staff conditions and pay, but what was in the Dispatches programme was factually correct (Celebrity would have their lawyers on them if it was not) and the undercover reporter had nothing at all to say about having to hand in his cash tips.

 

And as thebooler has already asked - what if the crew member has spent cash tips given early in the cruise and the passenger removes the auto tips at the end?

[Ma Bell]

It seems than anyone who has an opinion that is different from yours is automatically wrong, but I am intrigued to know how you have obtained your inside information. From staff, who may have their own agenda? What happens if a passenger takes off the auto tip towards the end of the cruise, do any earlier tips from that passenger have to be handed in retrospectively?

 

If the crew had to hand in their cash tips I am sure Dispatches would have been only to keen to add this to the list of grievances.

 

It has nothing to do with opinion, it's the way it's done. Many people who have sailed with Celebrity for a long time are aware of how things work. We've met lots of people through the years in all kinds of positions and the story is the same.

 

They started do the auto tips a few years ago because of the problems experienced with some itineraries. They thought this would make it more understandable to people with different cultures who wanted to know ahead of time what the cost of gratuities should be. As it turns out, that really isn't the problem with many of them. Obviously if things continue this way they will have to include them in the non-refundable price of cruises booked in countries with this culture. Maybe it will make it seem more reasonable even if it is exactly the same amount except there will be no chance to remove them.

[MEcruzr]

"... what if the crew member has spent tips given early in the cruise and the passenger removes the tips at the end?"

 

They don't get our "on account" gratuities until after the cruise. Cash tips? You can't remove those. LOL

[wvufan]

Many cheapskates look for reasons to remove their tips and to either reduce or not tip at all.

 

If the service is not flawless, they feel justified in stiffing the crew member.

 

We seem to forget that they are human beings with the same kind of problems that we have. They might feel sick, they might have just gotten a dear John letter, a parent or other relative might have died day before, or any number of things that might impact their performance. But, they don't have the luxury of taking a day off like most of us can.

 

It would be totatlly unreasonable for them to be on top of their game every day-but we seem to expect it. And many punish them when they are not.

 

It's a good thing my pay wasn't docked for all the days when I didn't do a great job.

 

Unless service is flagrantly unacceptable, we will always tip the recommended amount, and usually add a bit at the end of the cruise.

 

To not tip is to be blatantly ungrateful for all the blessings we have that enable us to cruise.

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE Baby :D:D Bob and Phyl

[snow bunny]

I as a Canadian get rather frustrated when others say that we "Canadians" do not tip accordingly. Here in Canada we do have a minimum wage but we tip when we are at a restaurant, get our hair done, have a manicure, etc. Or at least most of us do! My DH and I tip a customary 15% and if the service was great then 20%. So I suggest that the cruise ships pay the staff a fair wage which will increase the cost of cruising, do away with any type of discount (because why should the staff suffer if they can't fill a ship based on the new cost), and if I get great service I will add my own personal tip! Celebrity is no different with staff salaries nor do they differ greatly with their "tip guidelines" than any other "mass market" cruise line. I always pre-pay our gratuities as then I know what the actual cost of my cruise is and I don't have a large on board bill at the end of what has always been an excellent holiday. Thank you to all of the staff on every ship we have sailed on because I truly can say we have never had a bad holiday on a cruise ship!

 

Snow bunny

[Suzy Smith]

It has nothing to do with opinion, it's the way it's done. Many people who have sailed with Celebrity for a long time are aware of how things work. We've met lots of people through the years in all kinds of positions and the story is the same.

 

They started do the auto tips a few years ago because of the problems experienced with some itineraries. They thought this would make it more understandable to people with different cultures who wanted to know ahead of time what the cost of gratuities should be. As it turns out, that really isn't the problem with many of them. Obviously if things continue this way they will have to include them in the non-refundable price of cruises booked in countries with this culture. Maybe it will make it seem more reasonable even if it is exactly the same amount except there will be no chance to remove them.

 

It would be perfectly reasonable to include the gratuities in the price for UK cruisers and would avoid misunderstanding in a country where a "tip" is just a nice little extra, not part of a basic wage. It has been suggested that passengers from certain countries understand the system on cruise ships, but just don't want to tip, but most Brits (unless they have visited the US) have never heard of a system where staff rely on tips for their actual wage. Why would they be expected to know this?

 

Prices quoted for goods and services in this country have to be the total price that is paid (including all taxes and any extra charges). It is not the "culture", but the law, in the UK. If cruise lines make the tips compulsory and non-refundable, they would no longer be able to show them as a separate item, as they would be part of the total price of the cruise. It is true that the price paid is the same, but to our eyes this would be a more honest way of pricing.

[tx121]

I have a friend who works on celebrity as a waiter and they are by far making a lot more money it seems then I do on land! He says they can pull in from $3000 - $5000 /month. The base is low, but they get tips to make up for it..just like on land, the waiters/waitresses get paid under minimum wage and make more on the tips. As far as the contracts, yes they do work everyday --but they also get a 2-3 months off a year straight. I just dont get why the media keeps trying to put down cruiselines. My friend also said that if you want to resign and break your contract, you can do so. No one is forcing you to stay! Why don't they report on better things like the economy....i think that is more important then picking on a cruise line. pathetic!

[Ma Bell]

It would be perfectly reasonable to include the gratuities in the price for UK cruisers and would avoid misunderstanding in a country where a "tip" is just a nice little extra, not part of a basic wage. It has been suggested that passengers from certain countries understand the system on cruise ships, but just don't want to tip, but most Brits (unless they have visited the US) have never heard of a system where staff rely on tips for their actual wage. Why would they be expected to know this?

 

Prices quoted for goods and services in this country have to be the total price that is paid (including all taxes and any extra charges). It is not the "culture", but the law, in the UK. If cruise lines make the tips compulsory and non-refundable, they would no longer be able to show them as a separate item, as they would be part of the total price of the cruise. It is true that the price paid is the same, but to our eyes this would be a more honest way of pricing.

 

That's great. If it's not possible for people to adapt to customary practices of certain businesses and "do as the Romans do", I guess that would be a good suggestion. If I had an attitude that everything in the world needed to be done the way I am accustomed to, I wouldn't bother to travel because I might have my psyche upset on a regular basis.

[CI66774]

I'm beginning to think some of the people who want a "decent" wage just don't want to tip these people. If that's the case, don't cruise. This is the system in place at this time. You can show your support of your position by not cruising - oh wait, that means more workers will get laid off - and I'm I'm sure they'll appreciate your concern for them.

[Suzy Smith]

That's great. If it's not possible for people to adapt to customary practices of certain businesses and "do as the Romans do", I guess that would be a good suggestion. If I had an attitude that everything in the world needed to be done the way I am accustomed to, I wouldn't bother to travel because I might have my psyche upset on a regular basis.

 

But your attitude is exactly that - you feel that everything in the cruise world should be done the way you accustomed to, regardless of the fact the Celebrity is operating in countries where business is done differently. And it is not a case of "do as the Romans do", but "do as the Americans do"!

[SantaFeFan]

But your attitude is exactly that - you feel that everything in the cruise world should be done the way you accustomed to, regardless of the fact the Celebrity is operating in countries where business is done differently. And it is not a case of "do as the Romans do", but "do as the Americans do"!

 

You have got to be kidding!!!!!!! :confused::confused::confused::confused: It is not Ma Bell's custom we are talking about - it is the custom of the cruise industry!!! Celebrity operates world wide. Do you actually believe that at every port, in every country, Celebrity should change it's policies, it's "customs", to satisfy those anal retentive types in that particular country who refuse to understand that it isn't about them, but about a policy that the cruise line has decide works for them? How many times do people have to explain this simple reality before you will EVER GET IT????? If you are so unwavering about your belief that how your country does it is superior to anywhere else, then you should NEVER leave your country's borders. How in the world do you deal with customs in other countries if you can't even deal with this? Unbelievable!!!!!! :eek::(

[Ma Bell]

But your attitude is exactly that - you feel that everything in the cruise world should be done the way you accustomed to, regardless of the fact the Celebrity is operating in countries where business is done differently. And it is not a case of "do as the Romans do", but "do as the Americans do"!

 

If the custom of the cruise lines was to operate in the way you think is "proper", it wouldn't bother me one bit. That's just not the way it is.

 

I took my first cruise in 1974 and have cruised on different cruise lines with different registries, multinational crews of all kinds and the great majority of them operate similarly. They must think it works or it wouldn't have lasted so long. There are also all inclusive cruise lines, but even those designate a certain portion to gratuities. Where you make your mistake is to suggest that cruise ships operate in countries. They visit countries but they operate on the high seas. They are owned by companies or corporations, many of which are based in the US, but there are also many based in other parts of the world.

 

I guess my suggestion is if you don't like the business, don't patronize it.

[Project_gal]

It seems than anyone who has an opinion that is different from yours is automatically wrong, but I am intrigued to know how you have obtained your inside information. From staff, who may have their own agenda? What happens if a passenger takes off the auto tip towards the end of the cruise, do any earlier tips from that passenger have to be handed in retrospectively?

 

If the crew had to hand in their cash tips I am sure Dispatches would have been only to keen to add this to the list of grievances.

 

I do not know how the person to whom you address this question knows but I can tell you how we do. We always pre-pay [rather than auto-pay] our tips and know from conversations with our butlers over the years that they know about this from day 1. Because they know we have pre-paid our tips they are happy to volunteer information about the system without us asking - usually as a "thank you" for having done so. Conversations often continue into a discussion of the whole system. The consistent story we hear convinces us that what you have questioned is in fact the case.

 

Sue

[Davyjonesrugrat]

It seems than anyone who has an opinion that is different from yours is automatically wrong, but I am intrigued to know how you have obtained your inside information. From staff, who may have their own agenda? What happens if a passenger takes off the auto tip towards the end of the cruise, do any earlier tips from that passenger have to be handed in retrospectively?

 

If the crew had to hand in their cash tips I am sure Dispatches would have been only to keen to add this to the list of grievances.

Suzy we are banging our heads against a brick wall, some people on here cant even take examples without taking them for word. I put forward suggestions to prove points and yet they seem to think that I dont pay tips......Mention not doing the normal and they seem to have a red mist drop down........ I suppose its due to their 'I know all' status

 

rgds

[thebooler]

Thebooler - I'm just guessing here but I imagine they are told that must not treat any tips as 'theirs' until the end of the cruise.

That's possible, and is probably the case. having worked in tourism over many years though, I've yet to meet, or work, with someone who handed everything over. Even now in the UK, where tips are taxable, it's widely known that not all tips are declared.

This leads us to another issue. Are tips on cruise ships taxable? If they are, does the employer or the employee pick up the tab for them?

[thebooler]

I give up. It works for the great majority of cruisers and if it becomes bad enough on certain itineraries I'm sure they will just automatically add them on for certain cruises or booking areas, just as they have increased bar prices on certain cruises to make up for the removal of gratuities on bar tabs.

It may "work" for the great majority of cruisers, but does this make it right? Would you be happy in a job where your earnings were directly determined by the customer?

 

All employees should be paid a decent wage by their employer. Tips and gratuities for services rendered should be an "extra".

 

I appreciate the difference in tipping "culture" between the states and the UK, but I prefer the UK way. Every waiter/waitress/ bar person/cleaner gets a minimum wage no matter where they work or for whom. Tips received after this are normally in the event of someone going above and beyond the call of duty to ensure someone has an enjoyable experience.

 

Cruise companies use the "flag of convenience" excuse to avoid acting within certain laws which pertain to our various different countries.

[thebooler]

"... what if the crew member has spent tips given early in the cruise and the passenger removes the tips at the end?"

 

They don't get our "on account" gratuities until after the cruise. Cash tips? You can't remove those. LOL

Do try to keep up................................:rolleyes:

 

The question was.........If a crew member receives a cash tip on Day 1, and spends it ashore on Day 3, then the guest removes the auto tips on the final day of their cruise, does the crew member then have to find this cash tip and hand it in, considering they've already spent it. LOL

[thebooler]

It would be perfectly reasonable to include the gratuities in the price for UK cruisers and would avoid misunderstanding in a country where a "tip" is just a nice little extra, not part of a basic wage. It has been suggested that passengers from certain countries understand the system on cruise ships, but just don't want to tip, but most Brits (unless they have visited the US) have never heard of a system where staff rely on tips for their actual wage. Why would they be expected to know this?

 

Prices quoted for goods and services in this country have to be the total price that is paid (including all taxes and any extra charges). It is not the "culture", but the law, in the UK. If cruise lines make the tips compulsory and non-refundable, they would no longer be able to show them as a separate item, as they would be part of the total price of the cruise. It is true that the price paid is the same, but to our eyes this would be a more honest way of pricing.

 

Maybe the cruise companies don't want them to be a part of the total price? :eek:

BTW I agree with all you are saying about paying a decent minimum wage. Tips are an "extra".

[Corinium]

You have got to be kidding!!!!!!! :confused::confused::confused::confused: It is not Ma Bell's custom we are talking about - it is the custom of the cruise industry!!! Celebrity operates world wide. Do you actually believe that at every port, in every country, Celebrity should change it's policies, it's "customs", to satisfy those anal retentive types in that particular country who refuse to understand that it isn't about them, but about a policy that the cruise line has decide works for them? How many times do people have to explain this simple reality before you will EVER GET IT????? If you are so unwavering about your belief that how your country does it is superior to anywhere else, then you should NEVER leave your country's borders. How in the world do you deal with customs in other countries if you can't even deal with this? Unbelievable!!!!!! :eek::(

 

I agree with Suzy on this one. All she is saying is that when Celebrity is selling into the UK market and we are paying in sterling they should quote fully inclusive prices in accordance with UK practice. Azamara do it so Celebrity could do it as they are both owned by RCCL.

So SantaFeFan thinks that the rest of the world is analy retentive when they don't like or understand US cruise line practices even when they are cruising outside US waters ? Unbelievable !!!

[Aus Traveller]

That's possible, and is probably the case. having worked in tourism over many years though, I've yet to meet, or work, with someone who handed everything over. Even now in the UK, where tips are taxable, it's widely known that not all tips are declared.

This leads us to another issue. Are tips on cruise ships taxable? If they are, does the employer or the employee pick up the tab for them?

Most staff on cruiseships do not pay income tax so the tips are not taxable.

 

A previous post mentioned "working 14 hours a day". That might have been mentioned on the infamous TV show. The maximum staff can work is 10 hours for a seven day a week schedule. This is the maximum and includes any training required.

[Esprit]

This leads us to another issue. Are tips on cruise ships taxable? If they are, does the employer or the employee pick up the tab for them?

 

I can only comment on the UK Income tax. A UK citizen working at sea (including cruise ships) who works away for a qualifying period in a fiscal year can claim the Seafarers Earnings Deduction. This means all income (salary, commission, & tips) is exempt from UK tax and is not taxed by other tax authorities either.

One 6 month contract would not be enough to qualify.

The likelihood is that this applies to all nationalities and includes senior officers

[thebooler]

I have a friend who works on celebrity as a waiter and they are by far making a lot more money it seems then I do on land! He says they can pull in from $3000 - $5000 /month. The base is low, but they get tips to make up for it..just like on land, the waiters/waitresses get paid under minimum wage and make more on the tips. As far as the contracts, yes they do work everyday --but they also get a 2-3 months off a year straight. I just dont get why the media keeps trying to put down cruiselines. My friend also said that if you want to resign and break your contract, you can do so. No one is forcing you to stay! Why don't they report on better things like the economy....i think that is more important then picking on a cruise line. pathetic!

How many days paid holidays are included in your friends 2-3 months off? I'd assume at least 30 days, as is the norm?