ADA access to the Sanctuary

[RickEk]

Apparantly, that is EXACTLY what they have on the ships that do have a wheelchair lift on the Sanctuary deck.

 

It's not a misrationalization. You just have to be familiar with modern engineering. Yes, it would take some maintenence, as does everything on a ship that is exposed to the elements. Hmm, the mechanics of the tender and lifeboat cranes comes to mind...

 

I do have some knowledge of construction engineering. I don't design ADA contraptions, but I am a construction engineer for a health care company.

 

I'm only familiar with the Skywalker removal from the video, but it did come from a floor that still exists, and went into an enclosed structure that no longer exists...there had to be a shaft.

 

FYI... Actually, the lift that existed in Skywalkers on the Grand Princess (and exists on her sisters) still required folks in wheelchairs to be pushed up the tunnel into Skywalkers. There the lift would take them to the upper level where the dance floor was...

[Amuse Bouche]

Sorry, that sounded grumpy.

 

Well, it seems that some are more defensive of Princess and some of us are more for handicapped person accomodation. To me, given the average age of cruise passengers, it seems it just makes good business sense to accomodate. For many people, cruising is the least strenuous way to have a vacation and see the world. It should be a priority! I'm a fairly young person, and I know of at least half a dozen people I know who were near the end of their time due to illness and opted for a cruise because they were no longer able to get around easily. Imagine if your time were limited, and you had to see Maui from a balcony because you weren't helped onto a tender. Or if you wanted to lay in the sun and drink lemonade because you were having a "good" day, but the lounge hogs got to them first...

Depressing, I know, but these are the realities.

[montgomeryfamily]

Respectfully... this is not true. The decision to tender a guest in a wheelchair is at the sole discretion of the Captain. That decision is made with passenger and crew safety foremost in mind, therefore, if conditions do not permit safe transfer of wheelchair-bound passengers to and from the tenders, they will have to stay on the ship. There certainly is no blanket "if you're in a wheechair, you can't tender" policy at Princess.

 

 

First, let me amend my statement--the Princess blanket policy of precluding tendering for those in wheelchairs applies to any person/wheelchair combination which weighs more than 50 lbs, so in theory, if there is a person who weights approximately 35 lbs or less, they could tender, assuming the weight of an ultralightweight wheelchairs.

 

Obviously this would only permit small children to be able to tender in their wheelchairs, assuming a wheelchair weight of only 15 lbs or so. So this policy precludes almost all of the wheelchair bound passengers from tendering.

 

 

This is the Princess policy for tendering with wheelchairs which is copied directly from the contract of our booking on the Royal Princess.

 

 

 

WHEELCHAIR NOTIFICATION

... For the safety of all involved; passengers and mobility devices will not be transferred in/out of the tender if physical lifting of 50 pounds or more is required. ...If passengers are unable to tender or disembark because of circumstances outlined above there will be no refund or credit for missed ports.

 

 

Now, I am going to describe the reality we experienced based upon the several Princess cruises we have taken over the last two or so years since this policy went into effect (and we have taken four Princess cruises in the last two years). Before that time, crew member teams would lift the passenger sitting in his/her wheelchair onto the tender. Yes, there may have been times of bad weather or some other circumstance which prohibited tender, but mostly that also precluding any tendering. And that decision to preclude tendering was made after arrival at the port.

 

Our experience is that for the most part, the Princess Patter for that port day, which is written and distributed the night BEFORE arrival at the port, states that passengers in wheelchairs will not be permitted to tender. When we went on a cruise after the Princess no tendering of wheelchairs/passengers over 50 lbs policy went into effect, we did not know about this change of policy as we had not read this previously and it was not in the Patter so we would go down and the tender crew/officers would tell us that you have to be able to walk onto the tender--they would not transfer a passenger seated in a wheelchair. Then they began putting it in the Patter, but as I said, that language was put in when the Patter was written well before arrival at the port. And after that, on later cruises on the few occasions when it was not in the Patter, we would go down and the tender crew would always say that the passenger had to walk onto the tender or no tendering. When it was in the Patter, I would go down and ask if we could tender with our wheelchair bound family member and was always told only if he could walk onto the tender. So on our last four Princess cruises our wheelchair bound family member has not been permitted to tender at any port. It was not due to weather, sea conditions, etc.

 

 

We have complained to Princess post cruise and the Princess response was to point out that language in the contract/notification I highlighted above about the 50lb weight limit. Princess has told us that this is Princess policy now.

 

So to those who made the comment to disagree with me about this--do you have any direct personal experience--either you or someone you were traveling with who was confined to a wheelchair (and weighed more than 35-40 lbs)--being transferred to a tender by Princess within the last two years? Because I would certainly be interested in getting the dates of those occasions if there were any.

 

Now for those who will respond that it is ok for Princess to have a blanket policy re the weight restriction because it is unsafe/could cause injury for Princess employees to have to lift more than 50 lbs, I point out that we have cruised on Princess since before their takeover by Carnival and that Princess, until approximately two years ago when the policy went into effect, always had trained lift crew teams to lift wheelchair bound passengers onto tenders (with the only restriction prohibiting scooters/motorized wheelchairs and very heavy passengers, made on a case by case basis). In addition, both Royal Caribbean and Celebrity still used lift crew teams to transfer wheelchair bound passengers to tenders. Finally, if there is a concern about crew safety/avoidance of injury, then Princess should install the tendering system that their sister subsidiary, Holland America, uses.

Edited March 6, 2013 by montgomeryfamily

[Cruise Junky]

Wouldn't it be extremely dangerous for multiple people to be lifting someone into a tender? No wonder they stopped this.

[montgomeryfamily]

The ADA issue has been pretty much hashed out, but just in case people come and look at this later I'd like to add a few points.

 

As noted, the ADA only requires 'reasonable' accommodation. If a facility can show the cost or providing accommodation exceeds the perceived benefit, then they do not have to do it.

 

In determining that, it is also considered whether the item in question is 'core' or 'unique'. For example, on a cruise ship, access to one's cabin or the dining facilities would be core features. The Sanctuary, being an add on feature (and this is the key part) with functionally similar areas being available around the ship, even if not as nice, would probably not qualify.

 

Basically, given that there are already accessible loungers throughout the ship, with drink and food service, there's no ADA requirement in play here.

 

 

Loonbeam, I disagree with your analysis, but since it is after midnight, I am not going to go into details at this time but do intend to post later in the day when I have more time. In the meantime, I refer anyone interested to the Dept of Justice (DOJ) ADA site. I believe it is clear from the cases taken by DOJ (and settlement agreements contained on their site) that the standard is not cost outweighing perceived benefit (at least not in monetary terms). Certainly you can also research and review the federal regulations and various court cases, but I think the DOJ site provides ample clarity.

[montgomeryfamily]

Wouldn't it be extremely dangerous for multiple people to be lifting someone into a tender? No wonder they stopped this.

 

As I said, Royal Caribbean and Celebrity still do this (and other cruise lines may also, but I don't have personal knowledge of that). These are trained lift crews. Using trained lift crews is also currently how Princess plans to handle the emergency evacuation of mobility impaired guests--in fact, the Princess plan is not just for wheelchair bound guests, but for those using walkers and otherwise mobility impaired who will need the additional assistance in the event of an evacuation. It is in Princess' emergency plan for these trained lift crew teams to go to the muster stations and evacuate the mobility impaired by carrying them onto the life boats.

 

Installation and use of the wheelchair tendering system does not require any lifting!

[Loonbeam]

I was definitely oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. It's not strictly a financial equation. You could also factor in relative quality of facilities, etc.

 

But as a general rule, I think my point holds. If a company can demonstrate either significant barriers to accommodation and/or the availability of approximately equivalent accessible alternatives, in many cases they will not be forced to commit to the modifications.

 

I should point out I am speaking in the legal sense only, not the business sense. It often makes sense from a business standpoint to exceed the legal requirements.

 

 

Loonbeam, I disagree with your analysis, but since it is after midnight, I am not going to go into details at this time but do intend to post later in the day when I have more time. In the meantime, I refer anyone interested to the Dept of Justice (DOJ) ADA site. I believe it is clear from the cases taken by DOJ (and settlement agreements contained on their site) that the standard is not cost outweighing perceived benefit (at least not in monetary terms). Certainly you can also research and review the federal regulations and various court cases, but I think the DOJ site provides ample clarity.

[Loonbeam]

I had actually heard a story about someone (crew) being seriously injured loading a tender when I worked with Princess a few years ago. No idea if a wheelchair was involved, but if it was could be impetus for a policy change.

 

Wouldn't it be extremely dangerous for multiple people to be lifting someone into a tender? No wonder they stopped this.

[pablo222]

I had actually heard a story about someone (crew) being seriously injured loading a tender when I worked with Princess a few years ago. No idea if a wheelchair was involved, but if it was could be impetus for a policy change.

 

...or the follow-up lawsuit was.

[TracieABD]

I was on the Star in Feb. True story: I was on a tender that allowed a passenger with manual wheel chair to self propel into the tender. He was able to push in with very few accomidations. He, in his chair, locked in on the loading platform and the crew attached two leashes onto the wheels and posts on the tender.

 

I am wondering if there is still discretion per ship.

 

BTW, he was the last one loaded on, and the first loaded off. I don't remember him being lifted.

[montgomeryfamily]

TracieABD, what port was this? I am aware of three ports that provide their own tenders which are special tenders that will allow wheelchairs and even scooters/electric wheelchairs to roll on and be locked in without any lifting (not using the Princess tenders). So perhaps this port had that type of tender available? I would like to find out so we would know about potential tendering options. We have not been on a Princess ship which has stopped at one of these ports since this policy went into place, so I don't know if the Princess tender crew would prevent us from tendering onto a port tender if they did not have to provide any assistance to the wheelchair?

 

We really miss being able to go to Princess Cay. It was one of our favorite ports. On our last cruise I was able to book a cabana, but when the Princess tender crew wouldn't allow us to board the tender, we had to go to the shore excursions desk and cancel it--they allowed us to cancel since Princess would not allow us to tender.

[montgomeryfamily]

I was definitely oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. It's not strictly a financial equation. You could also factor in relative quality of facilities, etc.

 

But as a general rule, I think my point holds. If a company can demonstrate either significant barriers to accommodation and/or the availability of approximately equivalent accessible alternatives, in many cases they will not be forced to commit to the modifications.

 

I should point out I am speaking in the legal sense only, not the business sense. It often makes sense from a business standpoint to exceed the legal requirements.

 

 

I believe this statement/analysis is quite different from what you stated earlier and more accurate. Reasonable accommodation doesn't require a structural change where there is significant structural barriers to accommodation, but there is a requirement in such a case that alternate accommodation be provided where feasible. Examples would be placement of a ramp where there are stairs, providing a pool lift instead of rebuilding the pool for sloped entry, and providing a lift to go from one level to the next level.

 

Princess also has not included reasonable accommodations in their newer built ships where there would not be a structural barrier because those could be part of the design. This goes beyond designing to reduce/eliminate steps. For example, on Celebrity in newer ships (put into service 2008 and after), the theatre, which is built in a similar fashion as the Princess theatres entering from a high level and going down to the front via steps, there is a lift for wheelchair users and other mobility impaired to use to be able to go to and use seating at the front of the theatre instead of only being limited to the seating at the back. The Crown Princess, Emerald Princess, and Ruby Princess (2006, 2007, and 2008) did not incorporate any such feature--wheelchair users still have to sit in the back (of the "bus"...uh, I mean theatre :)) Not only is this a considerable distance from the stage for the performance, when a movie is shown in the theatre, the overhang from the balcony cuts off the upper portion of the movie screen.

 

 

In addition, where there is an alteration or remodeling of a structure, the company is supposed to revisit whether there is any longer a significant structural barrier and in the remodeling/alteration to incorporate accommodations. Princess doesn't appear to have done this---the creation of the Piazza/International Café area, the addition of the Sanctuary to various ships, and the major restructuring of the Grand to remove Skywalkers.

 

In fact, there are many areas in which Princess could easily provide accommodation but they don't (but other cruise lines do). For example, the heavy doors to the pool area make it very difficult for wheelchair users to enter those areas by themselves--replacement of the doors could be done, but automatic door openers (push the button) would achieve the same result. The same holds true for the heavy stateroom doors--none of the wheelchair accessible staterooms have automatic door openers. The new window suites have one wheelchair accessible suite--when the hallway was created, the heavy door to the lobby was fitted with a magnet and there is a button to trigger the magnet--but the button is approximately six feet high.

 

I just believe that no one at Princess considers these ADA issues, and yes, we and many others have written comments on our surveys, filled out those "let us know" cards, and otherwise communicated with Princess on these types of issues.

 

Whiterose, Princess does have an accommodation obligation, to some extent, in the provision of interpreters and other accommodation (but I know captioning is still controversial). I am sorry you have had this experience. I hope that you have requested accommodation in this regard from Princess on your upcoming cruise and that it will be provided to you.

 

Both Royal Caribbean and Celebrity provide interpreters and if you are giving advance notice to Princess of your need, they should be also. NCL learned this the hard way, in a 2010 consent decree with the Department of Justice (DOJ), so they also provide interpreters. You would think that Princess would take note of that. I am glad to provide you the information as to the DOJ consent decree with NCL involving accommodation of hearing impaired and the contact information for DOJ, especially if you are not provided accommodation services on your latest cruise.

 

While wheelchair users/mobility impaired do face various accessibility obstacles, they are able to enjoy much of the entertainment, games, etc--that is a major reason we still cruise on Princess. So from my perspective, you are missing a large component of the Princess cruise experience.

Edited March 7, 2013 by montgomeryfamily

[TexasRices]

They dont apply at all, its not an american ship!

 

ADA does apply, when they sail out of American ports.

[Putterdude]

Dudette has MS and either uses a walker or a wheelchair. She chooses to travel in wheelchair as from a practical perspective it is the only way she get around the ship or do shore excursions. With aid she can handle a couple of steps. So I am coming from having a bit of knowledge about issues of accessibility. She has never been refused tendering but if the seas are rough she does not want to go ashore even if she can roll on and off the tender. As for the lack of accessibility to the Sanctuary its no big deal in her mind there are lots of other places that are accessible to her. Having said all that, I also have time for advocates, they are the people who continue to hold government and companies feet to the fire when it comes to accessibility and I have no doubt that disabled persons would not have what they have today if it weren't for the advocates. Before closing off on this ramble I must say that overall we have found Princess and their crews very accommodating and attentive to the needs of the disabled.

[caribill]

As for the lack of accessibility to the Sanctuary its no big deal in her mind there are lots of other places that are accessible to her.

 

The Crown, Emerald, Ruby, Royal and Regal all have ADA access to the Sanctuary.

[chengkp75]

They dont apply at all, its not an american ship!

 

Actually, to a degree, they do. The US Supreme Court decision of Specter v. NCL requires the cruise ships to do whatever is "easily done" to make areas accessible (like removal of thresholds), but does not require all aspects of the ADA to be implemented if it requires "significant design changes". So not all areas of ships must be accessible. It also does not apply the ADA to the ships' "internal operations" without a specific legislative act from Congress stating that Congress wants this to apply to foreign ships. The ADA is applicable in limited fashion because the ships are "providing service or accommodation" while in US ports.

[FritzG]

Respectfully... this is not true. The decision to tender a guest in a wheelchair is at the sole discretion of the Captain. That decision is made with passenger and crew safety foremost in mind, therefore, if conditions do not permit safe transfer of wheelchair-bound passengers to and from the tenders, they will have to stay on the ship. There certainly is no blanket "if you're in a wheechair, you can't tender" policy at Princess.

 

This policy is listed in the patter for every tender port. However in our last 6 cruises wheelchair passengers were on every tender we took.

 

Princess needs to be consistent on this policy--either accommodate wheelchairs or don't. We met many passengers who believed what was in the Patters and didn't go ashore. When they found out that others had gone ashore with assistance they were very unhappy, rightfully so.

[Steelers36]

 

We really miss being able to go to Princess Cay. It was one of our favorite ports. On our last cruise I was able to book a cabana, but when the Princess tender crew wouldn't allow us to board the tender, we had to go to the shore excursions desk and cancel it--they allowed us to cancel since Princess would not allow us to tender.

 

Beginning next year, some itineraries are going to the new Amber Cove in DR in lieu of Bahamas. This newly built port stop by Carnival Corp has a dock, so it is like what they added to Grand Turk several years ago. I don't know where you like to sail, but most Caribbean stops are at a dock. So the new Eastern Caribbean route will have no tenders if you pick the right one.

 

I realize you'd like to be able to choose any cruise, but just wanted to mention the new Amber Cove. It could well be that Princess will eventually phase out Eleuthera as a stop.

[TexasRices]

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

 

 

You are absolutely correct Whiterose, that it's not just about mobility. I would encourage you to try Royal Caribbean. They have devices for the hearing impaired in their theaters - and I have seen captioning on their movie screens. So while the smaller shows may not be something you can enjoy, at least you would have a bit more access than you have had on past cruises.

 

At the end of the day, regardless of what's available...it all boils down to an individual's willingness and determination to make the best of any situation. Thank you for that reminder.

Edited August 10, 2015 by TexasRices

[Pierlesscruisers]

I had a feeling that they had the lift infrastructure in place with Skywalkers. That would have been a VERY easy retrofit. Shame on them.

 

Not being a structural engineer myself, and assuming from your statement that you are knowledgeable in that field, why would it have been such an easy retrofit?

 

Tom

[Pierlesscruisers]

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

 

I'm very sorry for your hearing loss, but I certainly do admire your ability to accept that problem and do what you can to enjoy life to the fullest. If something similar ever occurs in my lifetime, I hope that I can live with it as well as you apparently do! Maybe we'll be on the same cruise some day and my wife and I can buy you a drink or something!

 

Have a great cruise!

 

Tom

[Thrak]

I'm about to leave for my 25th cruise on Princess even though I have been denied access on every Princess ship. I have a severe hearing loss and am denied "access" to virtually alll of the onboard entertainment. I cannot hear the shows, the movies are not captioned, I cannot enjoy any of the games or quizzes, gee whiz lots of times I cannot even hear my waiter.

 

And yes I tell the staff every time I get on board, I fill out the end of cruise forms etc. If you have a handicap of any kind you're not going to get "equal" access. However, this does not stop me from enjoying my cruise. I'm sure other passengers think I'm rude or stupid but the reality is I often cannot hear what people are saying so I'm shy about joining in a conversation. I wish with all my heart this was not so but it is and I have to live with it.

 

While I can understand that it would be extremely displeasing to many passengers to caption movies in the theater or on MUTS I simply can't understand not providing closed captioning on the stateroom TV. It's not like it's new technology or something that would have to be on in every cabin. Hotels do this all the time.

[pablo222]

 

I'm only familiar with the Skywalker removal from the video, but it did come from a floor that still exists, and went into an enclosed structure that no longer exists...there had to be a shaft.

 

There was a motorized ramp, not an elevator to skywalkers on grand.

[CRUISEWITHH]

Can anyone tell me the daily fee for the Sanctuary?

[Plant]

Here's what I found on the Princess website: "The Sanctuary is located on upper decks, near the Lotus Spa. Half-day passes for The Sanctuary are available for $20 per person, for 8 am to 12:30 pm or 1 pm to 5:30 pm or later. Guests choosing to indulge with an outdoor massage may also enjoy an hour’s use of The Sanctuary area after their treatment. The Sanctuary is featured onboard Caribbean Princess, Coral Princess, Crown Princess, Dawn Princess, Diamond Princess, Emerald Princess, Golden Princess, Grand Princess, Island Princess, Regal Princess, Royal Princess, Ruby Princess, Sapphire Princess, Sea Princess, Star Princess and Sun Princess."

 

Here's where I found this info:http://www.princess.com/news/backgrounders_and_fact_sheets/factsheet/The-Sanctuary-An-Ocean-of-Calm-on-Princess-Ships.html?zoom_highlight=sanctuary#.VcqXJWfbIqQ

 

Hope this is helpful :)!