Princess fine art no more !

[Corfe Mixture]

There is a much better way.

On a good cruise, a Park West Art Auctioneer can take in $1.5 Million.

Princess could just as easily get rid of the Art Auction and add US$500 to your cruise fare.

That way they still get the same money and your sensibilities are not offended.

 

Why don't you contact them and suggest it?

 

That arithmetic only applies if the cost of the art, to PW, is ZERO and PW then hand over ALL the revenue to Princess. :rolleyes:

[caribill]

There is a much better way.

On a good cruise, a Park West Art Auctioneer can take in $1.5 Million.

Princess could just as easily get rid of the Art Auction and add US$500 to your cruise fare.

That way they still get the same money and your sensibilities are not offended.

 

Why don't you contact them and suggest it?

 

They could replace the "art" gallery with some cabins to bring in some income.

[GUT2407]

They could replace the "art" gallery with some cabins to bring in some income.

 

 

How many cabins will they fit in that space, maybe 2 or 3.

 

If $1.5M is right they are going to be expensive cabins.

[ar1950]

That arithmetic only applies if the cost of the art, to PW, is ZERO and PW then hand over ALL the revenue to Princess. :rolleyes:

 

No matter what the actual math is, I doubt that the art program would exist if it wasn't making some good coin for Princess (or every other cruise line where it is done). :D

[GUT2407]

Sad.

 

But might save me some money.

[Corfe Mixture]

No matter what the actual math is, I doubt that the art program would exist if it wasn't making some good coin for Princess (or every other cruise line where it is done). :D

 

True, but, after PW expenses and their margin, I could not envisage Princess getting more than 10% of the sale price and probably more like 5% which even 'on a good cruise' where the sales revenue is $1.5m Princess are making somewhere between $25-$50 per berth.

 

Not bad additional revenue for Princess, but certainly not the $500 per berth suggested in an earlier post.

[ar1950]

True, but, after PW expenses and their margin, I could not envisage Princess getting more than 10% of the sale price and probably more like 5% which even 'on a good cruise' where the sales revenue is $1.5m Princess are making somewhere between $25-$50 per berth.

 

Not bad additional revenue for Princess, but certainly not the $500 per berth suggested in an earlier post.

 

I would agree with the observation about the $500 per berth being way out of line, however, even if the revenue was in the low-ball $25 - $50 per berth range it must be enough to justify keeping the program as a revenue source. That was my only point.

[PRINCESSTHE BEST]

I used to love seeing the Wylands, Bill Macks and Nechitas, but none of these appear to be working with PW.

[emmak8]

I would never buy art on a cruise ship! I'd love to meet someone who is happy with their ParkWest purchase.

[PRINCESSTHE BEST]

I would never buy art on a cruise ship! I'd love to meet someone who is happy with their ParkWest purchase.

 

I don't know anyone one is happy with their PW purchase, but I know lots of people who are happy with their PFA(GFA) purchases.

[mek]

I would never buy art on a cruise ship! I'd love to meet someone who is happy with their ParkWest purchase.

 

I have to think there are a lot of people who have bought art on a cruise that are perfectly happy with their purchase because they bought it for the right reason - they like it. Many people never have any exposure to private galleries or have any idea how to even buy a piece of art. If they see something they like on a ship and are happy with their purchase then great.

 

I have a problem with people who "invest" in the stuff they buy on a ship,(or other places for that matter), who know nothing about art and buy into the investment hype. Better they go to some small private gallery and buy something they really like from an unknown artist. IMO, they have a much better chance in hitting the jackpot by doing that - if that's their goal. But to me, that is the wrong reason to buy art.

[Shoalwater]

I don't know anyone one is happy with their PW purchase, but I know lots of people who are happy with their PFA(GFA) purchases.

 

We made many fine purchases form PFA over a few years, are very pleased with the pieces, and were at the Connoisseur Cruise cruise level, but were never able to schedule one. When Princess went to PFA we were well aware of the reputation but decided to look in to give them a chance.....forget about it. There has been much posted so I won't waste my time expanding on this, but it was a sleazy, most uncomfortable carnival show. PW called to invite us on a Connoisseur Cruise and I asked to be dropped from their list. For those that don't know, the art dept basically paid for your Connoisseur Cruise as a debit against your art account, and if you bought up to that amount of art you basically owed nothing for the cruise. It was a great deal, but not with PW in charge. Let them keep laser printing all that "free art" on-board...

[BruceMuzz]

True, but, after PW expenses and their margin, I could not envisage Princess getting more than 10% of the sale price and probably more like 5% which even 'on a good cruise' where the sales revenue is $1.5m Princess are making somewhere between $25-$50 per berth.

 

Not bad additional revenue for Princess, but certainly not the $500 per berth suggested in an earlier post.

 

Don't quit your day job just yet.

 

Park West has varying contracts with different cruise lines.

The average percentage of revenue for the cruise line is just under 50% of the sales price.

 

Medium to small cruise ships take in around $100k - $300k in Art sales every 7 days.

Big cruise ships take in $1 Million to $2 Million in Art Sales every 7 days.

I have seen it go as low as $50,000 and as high as $3 Million.

 

The Art Auctioneer makes more profit for the cruise line than any other single employee onboard the ship.

The Art Auction makes far more revenue and profit per square foot than any other revenue venue onboard.

The Art Auctioneer - with his incentive percentage pay - earns far more than the Captain or any other employee onboard the ship.

Those terrible Art Auctions do more to keep your cruise fare lower than any other single factor.

Edited July 27, 2015 by BruceMuzz

[Corfe Mixture]

Don't quit your day job just yet.

 

Park West has varying contracts with different cruise lines.

The average percentage of revenue for the cruise line is just under 50% of the sales price.

 

 

I defer to your obvious inside knowledge on the margins generated by on board art sales, and how they are distributed, but no matter how you look at it, $1.5m revenue does not equate to $500 per pax unless 100% of the margin goes to Princess.

 

Whatever, given your detailed knowledge of these matters and not wishing to debate minor arithmetic issues, could you please fill in the following substantial gaps in my knowledge.

 

If the cruise line gets 50%, then how is the other 50% split?

What portion is PW's operating costs, including auctioneers fees etc.?

What portion is PW's profit on the sales price?

What portion goes to the artist?

 

How does this split compare to a normal gallery?

Does Princess' 50% come out of PW's margin?

or

Is it available only because the sale price is double what you expect to pay, before taxes, in any normal Fine Art gallery?

 

Before you answer can I suggest you Google 'Park West Gallery Lawsuit' and consider explaining why, if they get 50% of the revenues, none of the cruise lines have been cited as co-defendants in any of the cases?

Edited July 27, 2015 by Corfe Mixture

[BruceMuzz]

I defer to your obvious inside knowledge on the margins generated by on board art sales, and how they are distributed, but no matter how you look at it, $1.5m revenue does not equate to $500 per pax unless 100% of the margin goes to Princess.

 

Whatever, given your detailed knowledge of these matters and not wishing to debate minor arithmetic issues, could you please fill in the following substantial gaps in my knowledge.

 

If the cruise line gets 50%, then how is the other 50% split?

What portion is PW's operating costs, including auctioneers fees etc.?

What portion is PW's profit on the sales price?

What portion goes to the artist?

 

How does this split compare to a normal gallery?

Does Princess' 50% come out of PW's margin?

or

Is it available only because the sale price is double what you expect to pay, before taxes, in any normal Fine Art gallery?

 

Before you answer can I suggest you Google 'Park West Gallery Lawsuit' and consider explaining why, if they get 50% of the revenues, none of the cruise lines have been cited as co-defendants in any of the cases?

 

As I mentioned, each cruise line has a slightly - or more than slightly - different deal with Park West. I have not managed a Princess Ship for many years, so cannot tell you exactly what they are doing today.

 

Generally Park West offers 2 different price tiers of art; One tier pays 40% of the gross selling price to the cruise line; the second tier pays 60% of the gross selling price to the cruise line.

When averaged out, the total usually comes to just under 50% of the total selling price of the Art.

 

When Princess had their own in-house operation, they kept 100% (minus a very small overhead).

 

I manage cruise ships. I am not an Art Auctioneer.

I sign all the financial reports every day, telling me how much Art was sold, how much of that sale my company gets, and how much additional we charge the Art Auction Company for the onboard space they rent from us, the cabins their staff occupy, the medical care they might receive from us, satellite telephone calls they make, their air tickets to and from the ship, their bar bills, and the food they eat onboard every day.

 

The costs that the Art Auction Company has to cover from their percentage of the art sales is not my business nor my concern. I also care / know nothing about how much they pay the artists, nor do I care or know where they bought this art or how much they might have paid for it.

 

I have never managed an art gallery, so have no idea how Park West - or any other Art Auction company on ships - compares to one on land.

 

I am also not a lawyer - thank God. Can't help you on the details of any lawsuits.

Edited July 27, 2015 by BruceMuzz

[ar1950]

Very interesting conversation about the art and profits. It says more about the "value" of the art, at least to me. I mean if the cruise line gets approximately 50% of gross sales and the art auction company can, apparently, comfortably cover all of their associated expenses and overhead plus buy the art and still make enough to stay in business......hmm.....:confused:

"What was the price on that print again and why can I buy it cheaper from you than I could on land?" :D

Edited July 28, 2015 by ar1950

[iceleven]

Auctioneers know how to create "auction fever." And cruise ships are perfect for this set up. Passengers get excited, they have no means to do their "due diligence" and research the true value of the piece. How is it possible to be on a cruise ship, with limited access to the internet?

 

There is nothing "original", nothing that can be bought on a cruise ship that will be an investment. Buy something if you find it pleasing to your eye and know you will enjoy it but also know that you will be charged additional fees for them to mail it to you, additional fees if you want a similar frame. You can find art work of equal or better quality on the internet but you won't get that "free" glass of sparkling wine. :D

[ar1950]

 

.......................... You can find art work of equal or better quality on the internet but you won't get that "free" glass of sparkling wine. :D

 

Ah ha! Now we know where the value comes from......:cool:

[suzyed]

Somehow I can't think of the card playing dogs or dancing olives as fine art!

 

I agree!

On our last cruise on the Crown, I walked through the art "gallery"...there were a few pieces that were ok, but I don't think there was even one that I would think of buying.

We used to find the Park West auctions a bit more entertaining...and bought one piece and had it framed and sent to us. It was priced well and no, I don't consider it true artwork. It is a beautiful large picture that looks great in our house! We had no issues with them.

Nothing more, nothing less. ;)

Edited July 28, 2015 by suzyed

[suzyed]

I look at it a great way to pass a few hours on a sea day. Free Champagne and a show. Sit at the back and you get to see the "plants".IMHO

 

Yes! :D;)

[suzyed]

Hank,

I do take exception to being called a "sucker" for enjoying something and getting a good deal on it. I have looked up some of the items we have purchased online prior to the auction and found the price they go for on board to be quite a bit lower. Then I found one in a port gallery once that was 5 times the price it went for on board and it also was a print. We do enjoy them every time we walk through and see them on the walls. We also have originals from galleries and from artists and purchased an original on our last cruise. The auctions are enjoyable and that is what cruising is all about, so no need to slander those that find a part of a cruise, that you don't, enjoyable.

 

Herb

 

I'm with you Herb!

Edited July 28, 2015 by suzyed

[Loonbeam]

As far as the lawsuits go, think of the cruiseline as the Landlord and PW as the tenant. Unless it can be shown that the landlord is contributory to any situation, they cannot be included as a defendant (I am oversimplifying here).

 

Commission wise, 50 percent sounds about right from my experience with auctions. Out of that, they have to pay expenses, etc as noted, The auctioneer team probably sees about 5% after incentives, which means $50K per week if they can average $1M in sales (sounds like a lot, but if they can generate a few biggies - plus framing and shipping adds up.)

 

Artists generally don't see much money on prints, which is what the majority of sales are. At one point, I had the opportunity to buy prints of some of the same types of prints (not 'embellished') in the realm of $1000 per gross (144). And the margin on framing is even higher, especially if they outsource it.

[GUT2407]

I'm with you Herb!

 

I don't know why those who hate the auctions so much spend so much time worrying about them.

 

I only buy what I like, but actually know a little about art and do my homework. I have been very happy with my purchases.

[ar1950]

I don't know why those who hate the auctions so much spend so much time worrying about them.

 

I only buy what I like, but actually know a little about art and do my homework. I have been very happy with my purchases.

 

No hate here. We have bought a couple of prints when PFA ran the auctions. We never considered them investments, only something that we liked. Just find this whole thread a fun read and couldn't resist a comment or two. Art, like food, obviously, is very subjective. :cool:

[suzyed]

I don't know why those who hate the auctions so much spend so much time worrying about them.

 

I only buy what I like, but actually know a little about art and do my homework. I have been very happy with my purchases.

 

We have as well.

Not sure if you have seen Park West do this, but they will have auctions where there will be 5-6 pieces turned backward and you bid on them sight unseen with no obligation to buy them once you see it. We purchased a very large Linda LaKinff print at a fantastic price..I'm talking about $30! We had them frame it and deliver it to our home. Framing is expensive, but their prices were not out of line with any other framing shop. The piece when framed is just stunning!! It's the first thing you see when you walk into our home!