Princess fine art no more !

[Redwing55]

Just got off the Coral a week or so ago. I've enjoyed attending the PFA art auctions for a bit of change, getting a chance to learn about an artist or two, and look (buy) at some art for our residence.

I felt PFA did a pretty good job on these points. I liked the variety of art, though I didn't like all the styles- who does? The pace and atmosphere was relaxed, enlightening, and never intimidating- at least to me. And, for us, the prices were better than reasonable- especially if one wanted it framed.

 

Well, my experience on the Coral completely changed my enjoyment. I'm no expert, but know a bit about art. What was explained by PW, was confusing at best. For people unfamiliar with art, I doubt they knew what exactly they might be bidding on. Yes, they did review the type of art, but so quickly, that it may have confused me more than enlightened. I was listening since if I were to buy anything, I wanted to know the "quality" of the piece if it were not an original. It was hard to truly understand what type of piece it was- though a "label" was given on each piece. Strike 1

 

I should have said this first, but one was required to sign up and get a card. This is a bit intimidating, and frankly may have lost a few people. Princess used to use one's cruise card- much better. Strike 2

 

The atmosphere was far from relaxed. That may work for some, but didn't sit well with me. Though I'm a bit older, I do like upbeat things, just not a rah rah atmosphere while looking at art. Maybe that works for others better?

Included in this atmosphere was cheering by PW members- hooting and the like. This wasn't a sporting event, but they tried to create that cheering type atmosphere. Strike 3

 

There were other negative things, but I've bagged on them enough.

 

On a plus note, the prices appeared pretty fair- if I understood what I might be bidding on. They also had tons of giveaways and I'm not sure if there was much value in them. Maybe so, maybe not. But the audience did LOVE yelling back answers to get more tickets to win the items. I like a bit of that, but it was way overdone. Anyway, from what I gathered, if one was really interested in a piece, it looks like the best way to try and buy it is to put in a notice ahead of time- I forget what it is called, and you'll get the piece lower than if you didn't submit the notice- provided others didn't bid on it. I think that's how it worked anyway. Point is, check things out BEFORE the auction, not AT the auction.

 

Finally, this was my first time on the Coral and the gallery was pretty small. I would believe this hasn't changed a bit. I was more used to the Emerald size galleries and missed seeing all the works up close and personal. But that's not PW's issue.

 

So, I'll still check out the auctions in the future, but not with the anticipation that I had before. I admit without Wyland on the list of artists, my passion has ebbed a bit. Maybe some new ones will catch my eye.

 

So, don't give up on the auction, just don't expect the same experience as with PFA. For me, Princess and I both lost out on this. I usually buy a piece each cruise, and nothing came close to my interest this time. Oh well, they'll be another cruise in my future eventually.:)

[Plant]

Well, the "Art Auctions" are really not auctions. If you find a piece you like you can buy it without bidding (or by bidding against no one else). I'd suggest that you only buy what you love and don't expect that anything will be an "investment".

 

We love our purchase's, but we didn't spend the big bucks on them :eek:!

[Grego]

It only generates money because a lot of people like to have things to look at in their homes, like us. You don't have to buy anything you think is "ugly" and the prices for the prints are much better than in any gallery as I have compared them. Each to their own.;)

 

I agree. We have purchased over 30 real works of art on both Princess and RCI voyages. They are wonderful pieces and the prices were a great value. They have been recently appraised at much more than we paid for them (even with the framing! ) and we are glad we purchased them.

Agreeably, there are pieces that I wouldn't place in my garage, but there is different tastes for different folks.

At least the auctions offered some education to those that wanted to know about artists and their work. Those not interested can do something else.

[Lyndria]

We just got back from our first cruise. We were on the CB. We attended the last art auction, held on Friday. I thought the whole process was fascinating, as I had never attended any kind of auction before. My husband hated it. He was very annoyed at the high pressure sales tactics. We ended up walking out because the saleslady continued to pressure us, even after we told her we weren't interested.

 

I did enjoy the Gallery, and I thought there were some beautiful paintings in there.

[Hlitner]

I haven't bought art on board a ship, but I strongly suspect the purchase order has an arbitration clause, precluding suits. Does anyone have a copy of their receipt if they bought something from the 'new' PFA?

 

You raise an interesting point, and one that has been raised in prior lawsuits (and there have been a few against PW) and "cruise art auction scam" blogs. These auctions are held in International Waters and are not subject to any of the protections that exist in many states (and countries) that have consumer protection laws. So when you make a purchase on a ship (be it art or otherwise) you do it on "faith" that everything is as stated. If not, you will find yourself in the legal fog of purchases made on the high seas. And another issue are the cruise lines, which normally will not even listen to any claims or complaints...and simply say you should deal with the Art Auction company. Good luck :)

 

So lets say you buy a work of art (on a ship) that is valued at $5000 by the auction company and you decide to get it appraised after you return home. And say that a legit local art appraiser tells you that the piece is worth less then $100 and essentially a worthless lithograph. What are you going to do? If you had purchased this art in the USA with a major credit card you could simply dispute the charge...or perhaps take advantage of multiple consumer protection laws. But neither of these methods are very effective on purchases made on the high seas. So, you are essentially on your own, although some folks have previously filed law suits, inside the USA, on just this issue.

 

Hank

[nnrd79a]

We just got back from our first cruise. We were on the CB. We attended the last art auction, held on Friday. I thought the whole process was fascinating, as I had never attended any kind of auction before. My husband hated it. He was very annoyed at the high pressure sales tactics. We ended up walking out because the saleslady continued to pressure us, even after we told her we weren't interested.

 

I did enjoy the Gallery, and I thought there were some beautiful paintings in there.

 

It is really too bad the you and your spouse were not able to attend a Princess Art Auction before it was outsourced to Park West.

 

Your Art experience would have been completely different.

 

The Art was of a much higher quality (My opinion) with a nice diverse selection of originals and prints.

The atmosphere was more laid-back, no high pressure sales pitch.

There would have been multiple lectures and classes on the artiest that were represented in the gallery.

During the auction, time permitting, the Auctioneer would give in-depth history on how the presented artist created the work.

You could stop by and speak with the Art Director, discuss, debate, and learn about art history, or specific pieces all without any pressure to purchase.

You did not have to sign up for a bid paddle and participate in the “Bid, to bid” nonsense that PW implements.

If you were passing by the art auction and you saw something that really caught your eye.

At the break, you could speak with the Art director, learn about the piece, and if you wanted you could place a bid, or he/she would give you all the info about the piece.

You could ask him/her to bring it back up at the next auction to allow you to do some research. No problem…. The Art Director would even let you use their PC in their office to do research.

 

It was completely different.

It is too bad that the circus that is now onboard will be considered “Normal”. As time passes, everyone will forget (or never know) what was. It’s sad.

 

Google the following to view some of what was offered before the “Time Share” folks took over.

 

Go to google, click on the images link at the top and enter the following artists one at a time and hit search. (Big difference vs. PW)

 

Patrick Guyton

Chris Derubeis

Nakisa Seika

Wyland

Walfredo art

Daniel Wall

 

Eh…. That’s enough…. But there were many, many more…

Edited March 17, 2014 by nnrd79a

[tothemall&beyond]

Might be… I don’t remember any of their names….. but….

 

We were onboard near the end of January.

 

The main auctioneer was younger, thin, and a little bit on the shorter/average size, say 5’6ish.

Yes, he was very arrogant, dismissive, and full of himself.

 

His helpers were as follows:

Three helpers, One tall good sized fellow

(He was the guy that said all the older stuff was out for “re-framing”).

 

Two Ladies. Both were brunette, one of them had a British accent and was very petite.

I believe the other lady said she was from California. She was very pretty. An all around girl next door type of person.

(She was also the nicest of the bunch)

 

Perhaps these were the same folks you interacted with on Ruby?

 

I agree, about PFA.

 

The last time I was on the Ruby pre PWG, our art director was named Chris. He was a little bit older and had some huge wild frizzy hair!

He was quite the character! He was a bit odd, but he knew his stuff. I really enjoyed expanding my art knowledge on that Cruise.

 

We had Chris on the Ruby in October. Hysterical. He even did Liar's Club.

 

Yes, your auctioneer in late January is the same one, with the same team of 3 people, that we had in Dec and early Jan. AWFUL in every way!

[Redwing55]

It is really too bad the you and your spouse were not able to attend a Princess Art Auction before it was outsourced to Park West.

 

Your Art experience would have been completely different.

 

The Art was of a much higher quality (My opinion) with a nice diverse selection of originals and prints.

The atmosphere was more laid-back, no high pressure sales pitch.

There would have been multiple lectures and classes on the artiest that were represented in the gallery.

During the auction, time permitting, the Auctioneer would give in-depth history on how the presented artist created the work.

You could stop by and speak with the Art Director, discuss, debate, and learn about art history, or specific pieces all without any pressure to purchase.

You did not have to sign up for a bid paddle and participate in the “Bid, to bid” nonsense that PW implements.

If you were passing by the art auction and you saw something that really caught your eye.

At the break, you could speak with the Art director, learn about the piece, and if you wanted you could place a bid, or he/she would give you all the info about the piece.

You could ask him/her to bring it back up at the next auction to allow you to do some research. No problem…. The Art Director would even let you use their PC in their office to do research.

 

It was completely different.

It is too bad that the circus that is now onboard will be considered “Normal”. As time passes, everyone will forget (or never know) what was. It’s sad.

 

Google the following to view some of what was offered before the “Time Share” folks took over.

 

Go to google, click on the images link at the top and enter the following artists one at a time and hit search. (Big difference vs. PW)

 

Patrick Guyton

Chris Derubeis

Nakisa Seika

Wyland

Walfredo art

Daniel Wall

 

Eh…. That’s enough…. But there were many, many more…

Your points are spot on. Much better description than what I posted. I suspect more than a handful might like this new product, but those that have experienced it before PW stepped in will likely not be as content.

[Loonbeam]

Your credit card protections will still be in place, because they are governed by merchant agreements, but venue is an issue (it would also depend if the purchase was processed against your onboard account - which makes Princess a vendor) or directly by PFA/PW

 

You raise an interesting point, and one that has been raised in prior lawsuits (and there have been a few against PW) and "cruise art auction scam" blogs. These auctions are held in International Waters and are not subject to any of the protections that exist in many states (and countries) that have consumer protection laws. So when you make a purchase on a ship (be it art or otherwise) you do it on "faith" that everything is as stated. If not, you will find yourself in the legal fog of purchases made on the high seas. And another issue are the cruise lines, which normally will not even listen to any claims or complaints...and simply say you should deal with the Art Auction company. Good luck :)

 

So lets say you buy a work of art (on a ship) that is valued at $5000 by the auction company and you decide to get it appraised after you return home. And say that a legit local art appraiser tells you that the piece is worth less then $100 and essentially a worthless lithograph. What are you going to do? If you had purchased this art in the USA with a major credit card you could simply dispute the charge...or perhaps take advantage of multiple consumer protection laws. But neither of these methods are very effective on purchases made on the high seas. So, you are essentially on your own, although some folks have previously filed law suits, inside the USA, on just this issue.

 

Hank

[Lyndria]

Your points are spot on. Much better description than what I posted. I suspect more than a handful might like this new product, but those that have experienced it before PW stepped in will likely not be as content.

 

 

Thanks to both of you for your comments. After reading this thread, I do wish I had experienced it before the change. We probably would have bought some pieces.

[Hlitner]

Your credit card protections will still be in place, because they are governed by merchant agreements, but venue is an issue (it would also depend if the purchase was processed against your onboard account - which makes Princess a vendor) or directly by PFA/PW

 

"We certainly do not pretend to be a lawyer, but are merely pretty informed travelers who spend as much as half the year outside the US. So here is an interesting quote:

It is important to understand that the Fair Credit Billing Act does not guarantee you a refund everytime you have a problem with items charged outside the United States. In addition, that law does not cover cases where: you change your mind about a purchase and the merchant has a "no refund" policy or local law does not require giving a refund, or the merchandise you buy turns out to be worth less than you thought it was, or less than you paid"

 

In reading that statement one might want to focus on the "local law" aspect...which does not exist on the high seas. Have you ever wondered why Park West does not seem to conduct Art Auctions at various resorts around the USA?

 

So here is the problem. Say you buy a piece of so-called art on a cruise ship and charge it to your credit card. You get home and decide you have been "ripped off" and the art is not what you were told (orally by the auctioneer). So you ask Park West for your money back and they ignore your request. So then you put the credit charge in dispute and PW claims that the purchase is legit, you did buy the item, it was delivered, and you authorized the charge. At that point you are about out of options (which is one reason there is a history of litigation in such matters).

 

When it comes to any purchase "caveat emptor" reigns supreme and is your best protection. When it comes to art, one should practice caveat emptor on steroids :) If you are happy with your purchase and the price paid...then all is good. But if you are unhappy that is a different story.

 

Hank

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hlitner

[Loonbeam]

The merchant agreements have some protections in them outside the requirements of the FCBA, in cases of fraud or misrepresentation, they can chargeback the merchants payment account - its a clause a lot of merchants hate but you have to agree to to take Visa, etc.) The FCBA offers a lot of other protections that may not apply.

 

The key is proving fraud, as opposed to misperception of value. For example, if Park West says this piece is appraised for 'up to' X as opposed to appraised for 'X' you can't make the claim under the merchant agreement or even the FCBA (except for the return clauses in the FCBA) because PW did not guarantee a value.

 

Being out of the US means you have less protections, but not none. It just means you don't have the power of the federal government behind that of the CC.

 

Also, on another thread it was pointed out PW does have an arbitration clause in their invoice, which weighs the odds heavier in their favor.

 

"We certainly do not pretend to be a lawyer, but are merely pretty informed travelers who spend as much as half the year outside the US. So here is an interesting quote:

It is important to understand that the Fair Credit Billing Act does not guarantee you a refund everytime you have a problem with items charged outside the United States. In addition, that law does not cover cases where: you change your mind about a purchase and the merchant has a "no refund" policy or local law does not require giving a refund, or the merchandise you buy turns out to be worth less than you thought it was, or less than you paid"

 

In reading that statement one might want to focus on the "local law" aspect...which does not exist on the high seas. Have you ever wondered why Park West does not seem to conduct Art Auctions at various resorts around the USA?

 

So here is the problem. Say you buy a piece of so-called art on a cruise ship and charge it to your credit card. You get home and decide you have been "ripped off" and the art is not what you were told (orally by the auctioneer). So you ask Park West for your money back and they ignore your request. So then you put the credit charge in dispute and PW claims that the purchase is legit, you did buy the item, it was delivered, and you authorized the charge. At that point you are about out of options (which is one reason there is a history of litigation in such matters).

 

When it comes to any purchase "caveat emptor" reigns supreme and is your best protection. When it comes to art, one should practice caveat emptor on steroids :) If you are happy with your purchase and the price paid...then all is good. But if you are unhappy that is a different story.

 

Hank

[caribill]

Being out of the US means you have less protections, but not none. It just means you don't have the power of the federal government behind that of the CC.

 

 

Yoy may have been outside the USA when you authorized the charge, but it likely will by processed by Park West or Princess using a USA merchant address with a USA bank.

Edited March 18, 2014 by caribill

[Loonbeam]

I know Princess uses USA banks, and I assume PW does, but that's not a given..

 

But at that point you are getting into some very complicated technicalities about overseas purchases, etc when it comes to the law, so hopefully the contract provisions can help.

 

Side note - based on PW rep I would NEVER use anything other than a major CC to buy art.

 

Yoy may have been outside the USA when you authorized the charge, but it likely will by processed by Park West or Princess using a USA merchant address with a USA bank.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Loonbeam

[Redwing55]

Yoy may have been outside the USA when you authorized the charge, but it likely will by processed by Park West or Princess using a USA merchant address with a USA bank.

I would think it has to be since if one is a FL or MI resident they add sales tax to the purchase. One more mark against PW since I live in MI.

[grizzy08]

I would think it has to be since if one is a FL or MI resident they add sales tax to the purchase. One more mark against PW since I live in MI.

 

I was on the Golden in February and learned that if you purchased art unframed, it ships out of MI, hence the sales tax for Michigan residents. If you purchased art and had it framed by PW, it ships out of Florida. No sales tax for Michigan but Florida residents get it.

[Redwing55]

I was on the Golden in February and learned that if you purchased art unframed, it ships out of MI, hence the sales tax for Michigan residents. If you purchased art and had it framed by PW, it ships out of Florida. No sales tax for Michigan but Florida residents get it.

 

Interesting. Thanks for that info.

[PRINCESSTHE BEST]

Came off the Caribbean Princess a few weeks ago. Not very impressed with PW. The standard of art imho was very low. Lots of unknown artists work being sold at very high prices. Art auctions are now more like circus events with staff running, jumping about and screaming. Any serious art collector or gallery curator would be horrified!!:eek:

[BruceMuzz]

+ infinity! :p

 

There must be better to take $$$ from passengers.

 

:D

 

There is a much better way.

On a good cruise, a Park West Art Auctioneer can take in $1.5 Million.

Princess could just as easily get rid of the Art Auction and add US$500 to your cruise fare.

That way they still get the same money and your sensibilities are not offended.

 

Why don't you contact them and suggest it?

[MTJSR]

HOLOMOKU, hi from Mark and Tricia. Hope all is well with you both on the big island!

 

I walk thru the art gallery looking for Peter Max artwork. Ive always been attracted to colors, they make me feel happy. With all the colors normally in the art gallery, you'd think Id get dizzy and pass out :D

[elliair]

Most of us seem to agree but someone must be spending big bucks on this stuff or they wouldn't dedicate so much space to it.

 

We took my sister and her family on their first cruise years ago. Her DH is a Disney fan and draws Disney characters very well. Well, they spent a fortune on Disney art. They still have it AFAIK hanging in their family room. My sister passed away not too long after the cruise. She got to enjoy it while she could. We've never purchased anything from the art auction. I always thought of it as reeling you in, then getting sucked into your wallet. As one OP said here, that pictures of dogs sitting around a card table isn't art. I agree.

Edited July 26, 2015 by elliair

[mek]

Somehow I can't think of the card playing dogs or dancing olives as fine art!

 

Agree, but DS bought a Godard glicee' on a cruise and it looks great in his bar. Problem is with the embellished glicee's is that so many people think they are buying something special because it looks so convincingly original.

 

My step son and his wife have spent some hefty $'s on Kinkade gliicees' that they think will be worth gazillions just because old Tom plopped a few dabs of paint on them. Sigh......

[caribill]

Agree, but DS bought a Godard glicee' on a cruise and it looks great in his bar. Problem is with the embellished glicee's is that so many people think they are buying something special because it looks so convincingly original.

 

 

 

It is an original computer laser printer printout. As are the hundreds of others printed at the same time.

[HUNKY]

I've enjoyed reading this entire thread! My other half bid on and won? two handmade paper works back in 1996, onboard RCL's Splendor of the Seas. Art, maybe...but they do look great in our dining room. Every so often I look up their value. Today, you can buy a similar one on EBay for £80, or bid on one next month "expected" to sell for $3,000 to $6,000. They stir up good memories, so we ain't selling!

[avalong]

There is a much better way.

On a good cruise, a Park West Art Auctioneer can take in $1.5 Million.

Princess could just as easily get rid of the Art Auction and add US$500 to your cruise fare.

That way they still get the same money and your sensibilities are not offended.

 

Why don't you contact them and suggest it?

 

Hmmm..... well since you put it that way.....