Britannia appears to have a major Design Flaw

[Moray Firth Cruiser]

I have been watching several reviews about the ‘Royal Princess’, which is the same basic design as ‘Britannia’ and there appears to be a recurring theme cropping up time and time again.

 

The problem is to do with the number and position of the stairwells. This may sound like a trifling problem but believe me waiting on lifts which at peak times are always full or have no apparent logic is a nightmare which makes passengers flaming mad and having to revert to the stairs.

 

On virtually all 2000 and 3000 plus passenger cruise ships there are normally at least three stairwells located forward, mid-ships and aft. On some ships like the MSC Fantasia class ships there are four stairwells.

 

I have asked the P&O/Carnival press office about these recurring reports and have requested that they ask their senior managers about this. I shall await their reply and report back when and if I get a reply.

 

I am sure that some bright spark will happily inform us that the mega monsters of Royal Caribbean and NCL only have two stairwells. However, they have a totally different layout, having a horizontal atrium or central promenade and all their stairwells are positioned much more centrally.

 

Your views on this and your experience of stair and lift usage, specifically at peak times would be of great interest.

[davecttr]

Well the central staircase is there but it is crew access only. I presume there are reasons for designing like this?

 

i knew it was a good idea to have a cabin forward on lido deck. We get the lift first :D

[Thejuggler]

Celebrity Eclipse only has two staircases, but we never had a problem getting a lift.

 

Not having them immediately outside the theatre does reduce problems as once the show finishes passengers have to get from the bow to the Atrium lifts, this gives an opportunity for the crowds to disperse before needing a lift.

 

Freedom dining also means passengers aren't all leaving and arriving in small areas in large numbers.

[Host Sharon]

Having sailed on Royal Princess I found this a real pain as we had to walk miles (it seemed) from the lift to our cabin which was far forward. One reason I haven't booked Britannia.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Host Sharon

[littlesteelo]

I think this is a complete non-issue. If walking a bit further is a problem for you, book a cabin closer to the stairwells. It is as simple as that.

 

Also Host Sharon- You say that you didn't like Royal Princess because you had to walk miles to your forward cabin from the forward stairwells. The thing is, even if the central stairwell was open to passengers, that would have made no difference to you. The position of the forward lifts would still be the same.

 

I will be your so-called 'bright spark', and say that having sailed three times on Independence of the Seas, I have had no issue at peak times at all, despite there being a lot of passengers and two stairwells. The fact the aft one is positioned a bit more centrally is an irrelevant point.

Edited April 22, 2014 by littlesteelo

[need2cruisesoon]

Princess Regal returning from sea trials to Fincantieri shipyard with the Britannia in the background. Sister ships berthed together for the last time before the Regal heads out next month for inaugural cruises in the Med.

 

[tom_uk]

As the OP says, this has been one of several major gripes on the Princess forums about Royal Princess. (The other major one is about the size of the balconies.) I think there is some substance behind it. I hear what other people have said about choosing your cabin appropriately but that's not always possible. I can think of two possible situations:-

 

a) you booked a Saver fare and therefore don't know where your cabin will be - it could be anywhere;

b) even if you booked a Select fare and chose your cabin carefully, something might have transpired between making the booking and embarking that made you original choice of cabin unsuitable.

 

Here's a link to a blog post I did a few years ago when I experienced a tendinitis flareup while on a cruise on Ventura. Not pleasant at all....

[davecttr]

If your cabin is midships just take the lifts as you normally would ;)

 

apart from the upper and lower passenger decks near the public spaces most, no, the large majority, take the lift anyway as walking up or down a couple of decks is either physically or mentally too demanding for them.

 

Choose your cabin more carefully, that is what select fares are for. If you went for a saver fare I presume you don't mind if the cabin is a long way from the stairs, in the same way you don't mind what dining arrangements you get.

[Moray Firth Cruiser]

This post appears to be dividing into two camps.

 

1. Those with rational experience of stair and lift usage on-board ships.

2. Those who use sarcasm to answer posts. To what end I do not know.

 

The movement of people or in technical speak; ‘Passenger Transit’ throughout a ship is one of the most important design considerations in the design of passenger ships.

 

Threads like this are important to cruise lines in monitoring changes to transit layout. The complaints of passengers, their constructive comments and their views and opinions do matter.

 

A reply, such as just take the lifts, is a ‘non-answer’. Unless a lift system has a computer controlled logic, which few have, user can find themselves going up and down several times at peak times to reach their destination.

 

There are also many who do have a claustrophobic fear of lifts and for them stairs, no matter how long it takes to negotiate them, is the only answer.

 

Cabin location does have some bearing, but it can sometimes be a difficult decision to juggle cabin facilities with location.

[pete14]

I agree that stair and lift allocation is important.

 

One on my few gripes about Oceana concerns this very thing. From Aft cabins, the lifts and stairs only go to deck 7. To access the MDR and the Atrium, you either have to go down to deck 8, walk past cabins and through either Winners bar or the casino to access the 2 lifts and stairs down to decks 5 and 6 or get out on deck 7 and walk through the photo gallery and Magnums to the two atrium lifts or stairs. Not a problem (but an irritation perhaps) for able bodied people but for those with mobility issues it causes undue difficulty, especially having to manoeuvre wheelchairs in and out of two lifts.

 

Britannia has to be right otherwise it could be a financial black hole for P&O. Hopefully the central lifts (6 of them) will be properly programmed to make them easily accessible from all decks so stairs become less of a necessity

[davecttr]

This post appears to be dividing into two camps.

 

1. Those with rational experience of stair and lift usage on-board ships.

2. Those who use sarcasm to answer posts. To what end I do not know.

 

The movement of people or in technical speak; ‘Passenger Transit’ throughout a ship is one of the most important design considerations in the design of passenger ships.

 

Threads like this are important to cruise lines in monitoring changes to transit layout. The complaints of passengers, their constructive comments and their views and opinions do matter.

 

A reply, such as just take the lifts, is a ‘non-answer’. Unless a lift system has a computer controlled logic, which few have, user can find themselves going up and down several times at peak times to reach their destination.

 

There are also many who do have a claustrophobic fear of lifts and for them stairs, no matter how long it takes to negotiate them, is the only answer.

 

Cabin location does have some bearing, but it can sometimes be a difficult decision to juggle cabin facilities with location.

In which case why are Carnival getting it wrong with 3 of their ships.I would have thought their design teams have the required skills to get it right?

[tom_uk]

In which case why are Carnival getting it wrong with 3 of their ships.I would have thought their design teams have the required skills to get it right?

 

I'm not defending what they've done, but I imagine they took the view that many passengers would prefer to use the lifts, of which there will be six in the central location. So it's a design judgement call which has turned out to be a mistake rather than a fault, perhaps.

 

Interestingly, there are public stairs in that location between decks 5 and 7 - i.e. the Atrium decks - but no higher.

 

(I wonder what happens before/after the muster drill? - you're not allowed to use the lifts for that. Perhaps they'll open up the crew stairs which we assume are in there somewhere?)

[AchileLauro]

I wouldn't say that it is a major flaw. There will always be design limitations that inevitably end up in some sort of compromise on the design from that the naval architects initially desire. Not forgetting that they will have already studied extensively the population flow dynamics on the passenger decks as well as having to meet strict travel distances and exit widths on escape routes. All this is very much compounded with the larger ships which now appear to be in vogue for reasons of earning potential per square metre.

 

I think it just goes to show how important it is to select your cabin carefully. Our last cruise was on Ventura. The location of the cabin we chose worked out very well for us but may not have suited someone else. I did think on occasion that the ship was perhaps just that little too big for my liking and that personally I think a cruise ship around the size of Oriana or Aurora is quite large enough.

[newport dave]

On Royal Princess the central staircase can be used in emergencies by passengers.

[crompton21]

I have read some reviews on Royal Princess with people complaining about suite sizes (and as mentioned balcony sizes). Having done some dummy bookings, it would appear to me that a Suite on Brittania (midships) has a square footage of 382.....which is the size of a mini-suite on Aurora. A suite on Aurora is 40% larger (534 sq ft) than the same on Brittania. I can't say I have notcied that being mentioned too much in the sales blurb, but wonder wether it will cause upset.

 

Please note I did this as research in general, rather than because I can afford to travel in Suites all the time!

[HELEN HENRY]

I have read some reviews on Royal Princess with people complaining about suite sizes (and as mentioned balcony sizes). Having done some dummy bookings, it would appear to me that a Suite on Brittania (midships) has a square footage of 382.....which is the size of a mini-suite on Aurora. A suite on Aurora is 40% larger (534 sq ft) than the same on Brittania. I can't say I have notcied that being mentioned too much in the sales blurb, but wonder wether it will

 

Sorry I have been cut off posting gone AWOL. Will try again

Edited April 22, 2014 by HELEN HENRY
Posting has gone Awol

[Denarius]

Looking at the deck plans, Ventura/Azura and Britannia all have 4 lifts and a stairwell at the front (outside the theatre) and 4 lifts and a stairwell at the rear (outside the showlounge). All have 6 lifts (4 normal and 2 scenic) midships. All also have a stairwell midships, but whereas that on Ventare/Azura connects all decks that on Britannia connects only the atrium decks, there is no staircase connecting these decks to the accommodation decks or the Lido deck. The question is, how many passengers use the central staircases to get between their cabin and the atrium or open decks and will the lifts be able to cope with the additional traffic, given that Britannia has only the same number of lifts for 600 (20%) more passengers - although hopefully they will be larger (the lifts that is!). Time will tell.

[littlesteelo]

1. Those with rational experience of stair and lift usage on-board ships.

2. Those who use sarcasm to answer posts. To what end I do not know.

 

Like yourself you mean? The above quote being quite sarcastic in my view. It seems you don't like the fact that some people, who have shown they have experience of using lifts and stairs on cruise ships do not have a problem with it. That is a valid opinion and contribution to this unnecessary discussion. Just because some people disagree with your view that this is a design flaw doesn't mean that it is a sarcastic response.

 

I did see you posted on the Princess forum as well, and the replies you got saying the topic had been discussed ad nauseum are correct. For the entire time Royal Princess was being built and well after, the lack of a central staircase was discussed.

 

Also let's be serious here, everyone who has sailed on a cruise ship has 'rational experience' of stairs and lifts. You can't move around the ship without using the things. :rolleyes:

Edited April 22, 2014 by littlesteelo

[MrsNobby]

I agree that stair and lift allocation is important.

 

One on my few gripes about Oceana concerns this very thing. From Aft cabins, the lifts and stairs only go to deck 7. To access the MDR and the Atrium, you either have to go down to deck 8, walk past cabins and through either Winners bar or the casino to access the 2 lifts and stairs down to decks 5 and 6 or get out on deck 7 and walk through the photo gallery and Magnums to the two atrium lifts or stairs. Not a problem (but an irritation perhaps) for able bodied people but for those with mobility issues it causes undue difficulty, especially having to manoeuvre wheelchairs in and out of two lifts.

 

Britannia has to be right otherwise it could be a financial black hole for P&O. Hopefully the central lifts (6 of them) will be properly programmed to make them easily accessible from all decks so stairs become less of a necessity

 

 

The aft lifts on Oceana only go as far as deck 7 because the main galley/stores/etc are on deck 5 and 6. I don't have any experience of using a wheel chair but have had to push my sons buggy around a few ships so think I have some idea of how frustrating it can be having to find suitable lifts.

 

What I think a lot of people forget is that a ship isn't just designed for passengers it is also designed to house engines, sewer systems, fire systems, store rooms/refrigeration rooms, galleys (which ideally should be located next to a dining room) for passengers and crew, ventilation systems. crew accommodation, garbage rooms and incinerators and all the other things that are required to keep a floating hotel running.

 

If you think some things are inconvenient in passenger areas trying finding your way around crew areas when the watertight doors are closed and every couple of hundred feet you have to walk up a set of stairs to the deck above then down the next set of stairs to your original deck because you are not allowed to open watertight doors whilst at sea.

[CCFC]

I have used the crew stairs for muster many times.

[AchileLauro]

I agree that stair and lift allocation is important.

 

One on my few gripes about Oceana concerns this very thing. From Aft cabins, the lifts and stairs only go to deck 7. To access the MDR and the Atrium, you either have to go down to deck 8, walk past cabins and through either Winners bar or the casino to access the 2 lifts and stairs down to decks 5 and 6 or get out on deck 7 and walk through the photo gallery and Magnums to the two atrium lifts or stairs. Not a problem (but an irritation perhaps) for able bodied people but for those with mobility issues it causes undue difficulty, especially having to manoeuvre wheelchairs in and out of two lifts.

 

Britannia has to be right otherwise it could be a financial black hole for P&O. Hopefully the central lifts (6 of them) will be properly programmed to make them easily accessible from all decks so stairs become less of a necessity

 

I agree slightly irritating but not a major drama. Probably not the best ship design but seems to be popular with many who have sailed on her for some reason which escapes me.

The problem with "clever" lifts is that they are defeated by selfish unthinking/ uncaring passengers who get on a lift going down when they really want to go up just for the ride knowing that the lift will eventually go to the floor they require. They don't consider that they are taking up space in the lift that could be occupied by someone who really wants to travel in the direction that the lift is travelling. On top of that they then usually blame kids for playing with the lifts. The best of systems can be defeated by man.

Edited April 22, 2014 by AchileLauro

[Denarius]

I agree slightly irritating but not a major drama. Probably not the best ship design but seems to be popular with many who have sailed on her for some reason which escapes me.

The problem with "clever" lifts is that they are defeated by selfish unthinking/ uncaring passengers who get on a lift going down when they really want to go up just for the ride knowing that the lift will eventually go to the floor they require. They don't consider that they are taking up space in the lift that could be occupied by someone who really wants to travel in the direction that the lift is travelling. On top of that they then usually blame kids for playing with the lifts. The best of systems can be defeated by man.

 

A couple of years ago I stayed in a large hotel which had really smart lifts. When calling a lift, you indicated the floor to which you wanted to go by entering it on a keypad before a lift arrived. When your lift arrived, the display outside the lift would indicate that it was going to the floor you had requested. There were no buttons inside the lift, which only stopped at the floors to which it had been programmed to go. The system worked very well, but it was amusing to see the faces of those who just jumped into any lift hoping to press a button only to find that there were not any.

[alvin moondust]

This why you need the lifts on a big ship:D

 

[sagaris]

It is even more difficult in a long evening dress and heels:D

[groovechick]

Choose your cabin more carefully, that is what select fares are for. If you went for a saver fare I presume you don't mind if the cabin is a long way from the stairs, in the same way you don't mind what dining arrangements you get.

__________________

We are booked on Britannia next December and despite booking Select have NOT been able to pick our cabins. All we have is a guarantee that we will have a certain grade of cabin, but we and our children might be at opposite ends of the ship. No amount of argument and reference to P&O's stated terms for Select fares made a difference.

 

At the time of booking we are all fit and well and having to walk a distance is not a problem, but it might mean that you have to be ready to go to dinner or wherever 10 minutes earlier to avoid arriving red faced and perspiring. Last year on Azura I frequently took the stairs (mainly down, I admit!) and yes, Sagaris, it is trickier in evening gown and heels!

 

As I understand it, the complaint about the lack of a central staircase on Royal Princess is compounded by the number of lifts supposedly being insufficient for the number of passengers wanting to use them and their actual size. It has been said that they are not actually capable of holding (anywhere near) the stated max. no. of pax. We shall see.