Oasis Lawyer

[FLACRUISER99]

Why is beyond the realm of possibility that this man was harassed by a crew member?

 

Because this is your favorite cruise line, or because you may personally be against someones sexual orientation? While I don't love ambulance chasers, I do believe that all the facts should come out through investigation. Yes, the victim ultimately placed himself in that position of danger; no one threw him out there. But we don't know everything else that went on. We weren't there. For anyone to claim this is cut and dry is just absurd.

 

Some people here are completely insensitive and I am amazed at the lack of empathy or even desire to know the truth before casting full blame on the victim and absolving the cruise line entirely.

So what if he was harassed? Have we all been harassed or bullied? That's no excuse for jumping off the balcony.

[LMaxwell]

So what if he was harassed? Have we all been harassed or bullied? That's no excuse for jumping off the balcony.

 

I am simply saying that we should allow an investigation of the facts before jumping to the conclusion that no one harassed him at all. It may have happened. Let the investigation determine the facts before proclaiming final judgment.

[jonbgd]

Arnt the railings on the Oasis/Allure taller than on other ships?

[slk230red]

6000 people on a ship. You don't understand that there might me some "drama" that occurs every day everywhere else??

 

You are correct. But the look on the passengers face when Captain Johnny kicked them off of the Oasis was priceless. Problem solved.

[FLACRUISER99]

I am simply saying that we should allow an investigation of the facts before jumping to the conclusion that no one harassed him at all. It may have happened. Let the investigation determine the facts before proclaiming final judgment.

Great Idea for you. I prefer to believe that it's all about the Money,Money, Money.

[Fantasymil]

Why is beyond the realm of possibility that this man was harassed by a crew member?

 

Because this is your favorite cruise line, or because you may personally be against someones sexual orientation? While I don't love ambulance chasers, I do believe that all the facts should come out through investigation. Yes, the victim ultimately placed himself in that position of danger; no one threw him out there. But we don't know everything else that went on. We weren't there. For anyone to claim this is cut and dry is just absurd.

 

Some people here are completely insensitive and I am amazed at the lack of empathy or even desire to know the truth before casting full blame on the victim and absolving the cruise line entirely.

 

I agree 100%!!!!!

[Fury1995]

Is it possible we could have just one thread on this topic stay civil with actual information?

 

I look to forums like this one to make informative intelligent decisons.

 

I am booked on a RCCL cruise.

I am a gay man.

I am sailing with my husband.

I am sailing on his birthday.

I have a balcony booked.

I have cruised numerous times with Royal.

 

But.. most importantly..

 

I have an open mind.

 

You won't find any one place that is more a melting pot of cultures, languages and possible misunderstandings of things said or intent than the confined space of a cruise ship. It's unique in this way.

 

The same may be said of Internet message forums.

 

At lease here, we have the oppourtinity and obligation to preview our intent before we post.

[LMaxwell]

Great Idea for you. I prefer to believe that it's all about the Money,Money, Money.

 

I appreciate you being honest about your opinion. I'll be more interested in whatever the investigation uncovers.

 

Last year a woman was assaulted quite violently on a Holland America ship; lucky to have lived. People jumped to white knight the cruise line and employee...blame the victim. The employee is now serving a 30 year sentence for attempted murder and aggravated sexual assault. The cruise line was found negligent in their response (they ignored emergency calls). But to read it on cruise critic it was 100% the victims fault and this could never be caused by the hard working staff member.

 

Perfect example of waiting for the facts of an investigation before placing blame one place or another.

[ryano]

Why is beyond the realm of possibility that this man was harassed by a crew member?

 

Because this is your favorite cruise line, or because you may personally be against someones sexual orientation? While I don't love ambulance chasers, I do believe that all the facts should come out through investigation. Yes, the victim ultimately placed himself in that position of danger; no one threw him out there. But we don't know everything else that went on. We weren't there. For anyone to claim this is cut and dry is just absurd.

 

Some people here are completely insensitive and I am amazed at the lack of empathy or even desire to know the truth before casting full blame on the victim and absolving the cruise line entirely.

 

My empathy went out the window when the Atty was called. Period. If that makes me insensitive, well, so mote it be. We may never know the truth but we ARE entitled to our opinion based on whats been provided so far and the way I see it, they have taken a tragedy and turned into a way to get $$$. THAT is the sad part of this whole story

 

As far as being against someones sexual orientation, what in this thread leads you to believe that to even bring that into discussion? Speaking only for myself, I could NOT care less. Treat me nice and I will do the same no matter what your sexual orientation is. I imagine everyone else participating in this discussion feels the same way and it they dont, hopefully they will keep their bigoted thoughts and remarks to themselves. Pretty sure thats what got the last one pulled.

Edited November 9, 2015 by ryano

[LMaxwell]

My empathy went out the window when the Atty was called. Period. If that makes me insensitive, well, so mote it be. We may never know the truth but we ARE entitled to our opinion based on whats been provided so far and the way I see it, they have taken a tragedy and turned into a way to get $$$. THAT is the sad part of this whole story :rolleyes:

 

As far as being against someones sexual orientation, what in this thread leads you to believe that to even bring that into discussion? Speaking only for myself, I could NOT care less. Treat me nice and I will do the same no matter what your sexual orientation is.

 

Whenever a loss of life occurs in extreme circumstances such as this it's pretty standard to retain a lawyer.

 

I'd be willing to bet the person that is still alive would rather have their spouse back than any amount of monetary compensation.

 

Regardless of opinions, the victims family deserves to be told the truth after an investigation is completed by professionals. What we have seen on this forum and new stories / videos is only part of the story. We were not there. We should not pass judgment one way or another until facts come to light. Of course you are allowed your opinions and feelings. It is MY opinion that I prefer to have the facts before judging one way or another. I have not said it is the cruise lines fault. I have not stated he was or was not harassed. I simply said an investigation has to occur first. And it will.

[Fury1995]

Okay..

 

So to take this back on topic. The Lawyer..

 

The Attorney said in a statement that both men had cell phone video of their own. He also said the phones were taken by staff and not returned to Mr. Elbaz (or Albaz.. has anyone figured out the correct spelling yet?) and that he was retrieving them directly from the authorities (BSO?).

 

Keeping an open mind...

 

I wonder if the alleged additional cell phone videos could provide details supporting both the claims of Mr. Elbaz and Royal Caribbean?

[birdlord]

Is it possible we could have just one thread on this topic stay civil with actual information?

 

I look to forums like this one to make informative intelligent decisons.

 

I am booked on a RCCL cruise.

I am a gay man.

I am sailing with my husband.

I am sailing on his birthday.

I have a balcony booked.

I have cruised numerous times with Royal.

 

But.. most importantly..

 

I have an open mind.

 

You won't find any one place that is more a melting pot of cultures, languages and possible misunderstandings of things said or intent than the confined space of a cruise ship. It's unique in this way.

 

The same may be said of Internet message forums.

 

At lease here, we have the oppourtinity and obligation to preview our intent before we post.

 

Well said. And I too have a sailing booked. On Oasis. In 26 days. This entire incident has sadly put a damper on my excitement. I am sure many would say that's nuts, but I can't help it. That's how I feel. I hope you and your husband enjoy the birthday cruise.

[alfaeric]

Whenever a loss of life occurs in extreme circumstances such as this it's pretty standard to retain a lawyer.

 

Is it also standard to start assigning blame immediately?

 

I think that is what is turning so many so quickly.

 

Practically before the ship is unloaded, the family's representation is blaming the cruise ship and it's employees. Before all of the facts come out.

 

Gives one the impression that they are not trying to get to the bottom of what happened, but get a settlement ASAP. And if one think that way, that's pretty darned callous of the family.

 

There was a pretty strong outpouring of support for the family on the other thread. Until accusations started flying- when both sides have not finished any reasonable investigation.

 

If a crew member bullied the person into doing something rash like that, I would like to see some kind of punishment that person. Or people.

 

None the less, it's understandable that people would get a bad taste in their mouths when the family of the victim immediately comes out with blame almost immediately. If they are going to jump to conclusions that fast, it's natural that everyone else will as well.

[jacketwatch]

Whenever a loss of life occurs in extreme circumstances such as this it's pretty standard to retain a lawyer.

 

I'd be willing to bet the person that is still alive would rather have their spouse back than any amount of monetary compensation.

 

Regardless of opinions, the victims family deserves to be told the truth after an investigation is completed by professionals. What we have seen on this forum and new stories / videos is only part of the story. We were not there. We should not pass judgment one way or another until facts come to light. Of course you are allowed your opinions and feelings. It is MY opinion that I prefer to have the facts before judging one way or another. I have not said it is the cruise lines fault. I have not stated he was or was not harassed. I simply said an investigation has to occur first. And it will.

 

That is sensible. I once, about a yr. ago actually was selected to serve on a federal jury in Chicago. It was a great experience in that you learn a lot. The initial presentation of the case gave you one impression but by the time all the evidence was shown that presentation fell apart. Yes you have to examine everything. There is no way we know enough now even if you think you do. Yes, look at everything first.

 

I do feel sad for the victim and his friends and family.

[bouhunter]

My empathy went out the window when the Atty was called. Period. If that makes me insensitive, well, so mote it be. We may never know the truth but we ARE entitled to our opinion based on whats been provided so far and the way I see it, they have taken a tragedy and turned into a way to get $$$. THAT is the sad part of this whole story

 

.

 

Good point indeed. Interesting that the attorney is involved and in the media SO FAST. Apparently it didn't take the husband long to move on from the tragedy and get into the legal process........:rolleyes:

[Fury1995]

Is this the same lawfirm/lawyer that is representing the El Faro families?

[alfaeric]

Okay..

 

So to take this back on topic. The Lawyer..

 

The Attorney said in a statement that both men had cell phone video of their own. He also said the phones were taken by staff and not returned to Mr. Elbaz (or Albaz.. has anyone figured out the correct spelling yet?) and that he was retrieving them directly from the authorities (BSO?).

 

Keeping an open mind...

 

I wonder if the alleged additional cell phone videos could provide details supporting both the claims of Mr. Elbaz and Royal Caribbean?

 

 

I want to keep an open mind as well, but does it make sense that both men have a video recording of events? Some events, perhaps. It would make sense to document harassment. But what else would be recorded? To me, in the heat of a moment, I can't see picking up my phone and taping an argument that I am in. Seems like most of those are of bystanders recording what is going on...

 

If indeed true, hopefully the phones had tough enough locks on them not to be tampered with.

[graphicguy]

It is sad, whenever there's a loss of life. This case, it appears that alcohol had a significant role. I enjoy cocktails. But, add alcohol with domestic disputes, and things CAN (not that they will) get violent and turn ugly all too quickly between a couple.

 

I think the crew should be commended for their efforts.

 

Who is culpable? Who knows? My personal opinion? The glass and wood railings are just too high for anyone to do anything but make a conscious (albeit alcohol impaired) and determined move to jump overboard. I think after all the statements and videos are reviewed, this won't go to trial. I also don't think RCCL will pay anything.

Edited November 9, 2015 by graphicguy

[Fury1995]

Good point indeed. Interesting that the attorney is involved and in the media SO FAST. Apparently it didn't take the husband long to move on from the tragedy and get into the legal process........:rolleyes:

 

Possibly..

 

Or it could have been a counter to the media that was reporting it was suicide based on the only statements that were public up to that point.

[chengkp75]

Why is beyond the realm of possibility that this man was harassed by a crew member?

 

Because this is your favorite cruise line, or because you may personally be against someones sexual orientation? While I don't love ambulance chasers, I do believe that all the facts should come out through investigation. Yes, the victim ultimately placed himself in that position of danger; no one threw him out there. But we don't know everything else that went on. We weren't there. For anyone to claim this is cut and dry is just absurd.

 

Some people here are completely insensitive and I am amazed at the lack of empathy or even desire to know the truth before casting full blame on the victim and absolving the cruise line entirely.

 

No, it is not "beyond the realm of possibility", but based on my experience, and the almost universal presence of a gay community in a ship's crew, sometimes a significant presence, I don't believe that this happened. I believe that any gay bashing most likely came from other passengers, if it happened at all.

 

I have no horse in this race for or against RCI, I stick with facts and observations based on my years of experience. I call it like I see it, regardless of which line is involved.

 

Lets look at the statements in the Sun Sentinel article:

 

"There was some altercation, a fight, more anti-gay remarks," said Winkleman.

 

When Bernardo returned to the couple's room after midnight, he was "definitely inebriated, crying, swearing at crew members who may have followed him," Winkleman said. "He was so angry he threw a lamp, a chair."

 

If he had been in a "fight" and was "definitely inebriated" as the plaintiff's own lawyer stipulates, then the "crew members who may have followed him" would have been Security, we all know that. And they have the right to do so, to protect the company's property, other passengers, and the person involved. Then he damaged company property, again as the plaintiff's lawyer stipulates. This warrants a visit from Security.

 

After a second visit to the room by security staff, "there is another long altercation, with maybe as many as five or six crew members," Winkleman said.

 

Were these five or six crew members from Security and/or the Staff Captain's staff, or were they homophobic crew just there to sling taunts? It's my experience that whenever Security shows up, the rest of the crew avoid that area like the plague, because they would then be called for statements, and the video would be under scrutiny. Also, due to the video scrutiny, Security would not have allowed crew to be in passenger areas where they were not allowed. Since the original altercation happened in a bar, if it was crew originated, it would be bar staff that did it, and they would have no justification in being at a guest's cabin, and liable for termination for doing so.

 

The door to the balcony was open, Winkleman said, "and [bernardo] falls over into the life boat."

 

How does a confrontation in their cabin and an open balcony door equate into someone falling over the railing? Remember, this is the plaintiff's lawyer's words, not mine or RCI's. Without getting into the whole falling vs. climbing over the railing thing, I think everyone here can stipulate that unless you are as tall as Yao Ming, the top of the railing is above your center of gravity and "falling" over the rail is realistically impossible. Did a crew member, or Security, throw him over? That can't be the case, or the lawyer would have jumped on that in a heartbeat.

 

These are not all the facts of the case, for sure, and it will be a long time, if ever, before the public sees all the facts. But using the plaintiff's lawyer's own words, in my mind at least, shoots large holes in the story, and my experience on cruise ships leads me to dismiss other aspects. If I were called as expert witness, on the basis of my experience with international crews, the above is what I would state in any deposition.

 

My personal take is that Security was telling the two people involved that if they didn't calm down, one or both were going to the brig, and this triggered the one individual to climb on the railing with the typical "don't come near me or I'll jump" threat. This is pure supposition on my part, and may not be true.

Edited November 9, 2015 by chengkp75

[jakenashleysmom]

I find it strange that we haven't heard whether or not the man had a history of mental illness. I am not doubting there may have been some gay-bashing...many cultures aboard a vessel, not everyone is going to agree. I will say that any rational thinking person, gay or straight, would not have acted in the manner being reported. It is also interesting to see the video from the other angle, where you can see that he is standing on a support and takes a step towards the ocean not away.

 

Sent from my KFTHWI using Forums mobile app

[Tura Lura]

Good point indeed. Interesting that the attorney is involved and in the media SO FAST. Apparently it didn't take the husband long to move on from the tragedy and get into the legal process........:rolleyes:

 

Anger is one of the 5 stages of grief. I could see anger (and bargaining, another stage) driving someone to a lawyer. Eventually the husband will move through the stages and end up at acceptance, but anger is a normal reaction. And anger means a lawyer can rile you up and get you in the suing state of mind.

[yogimax]

Just saying, lawyer's fees in most PI cases is 25% or 33%.

 

Nope... this is from the company....

 

 

Fees:

 

Contingent (33-40%)

 

Payment types:

 

Cash, Check, Credit card

[garnetpalmetto]

Nope... this is from the company....

 

 

Fees:

 

Contingent (33-40%)

 

Payment types:

 

Cash, Check, Credit card

 

Eesh. In that case the family should have shopped around a bit. My old firm did 25%-33% and most firms I'm familiar with are at that level as well.

[Fury1995]

I want to keep an open mind as well, but does it make sense that both men have a video recording of events? Some events, perhaps. It would make sense to document harassment. But what else would be recorded? To me, in the heat of a moment, I can't see picking up my phone and taping an argument that I am in. Seems like most of those are of bystanders recording what is going on...

 

If indeed true, hopefully the phones had tough enough locks on them not to be tampered with.

 

True, but we see this more often now in the news. People involved in the actual event being filmed or doing the filming without an expectation of have truly tragic outcomes.

 

People often film situations they deem dangerous as a deterrent to their perceived threat.

 

We have the video of the person above filming someone's fall to their death when the outcome wasn't determined yet. She grabbed her cell phone... she probably thought she would be filming a rescue, not a fall.