Oasis Lawyer

[yogimax]

Anger is one of the 5 stages of grief. I could see anger (and bargaining, another stage) driving someone to a lawyer. Eventually the husband will move through the stages and end up at acceptance, but anger is a normal reaction. And anger means a lawyer can rile you up and get you in the suing state of mind.

 

The most logical explanation is that there was a domestic altercation that became physical. The husband of the victim will naturally feel responsibility and guilt for the death.

 

By hiring a lawyer, he is trying to transfer his guilt onto the cruise company.

 

I was onboard this sailing. My first reaction was total sympathy for the husband and also the crew who tried to save the victim. Within 24 hours, however, a lawyer started making ridiculous statements, a lawyer who stands to benefit financially. By the way, the lawyer has never explained how he went over the side. You cannot accidentally "fall" over the side.

[Mnamom1105]

3 sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth which is somewhere in between...I think a lot more will come out in time about this. IN the meantime, the family of the victim AND RC will both be "bashed" and "shamed". Such a sad ending to what should have been a wonderful trip.

[chellebert]

Is this the same lawfirm/lawyer that is representing the El Faro families?

 

Yes, and also many other clients of accidents/incidents on cruise lines as well

[alfaeric]

True, but we see this more often now in the news. People involved in the actual event being filmed or doing the filming without an expectation of have truly tragic outcomes.

 

People often film situations they deem dangerous as a deterrent to their perceived threat.

 

We have the video of the person above filming someone's fall to their death when the outcome wasn't determined yet. She grabbed her cell phone... she probably thought she would be filming a rescue, not a fall.

 

Having other people around filming what was going on makes 100% sense. People have posted on ship fight videos.

 

And I would almost expect more than the one film that was on youtube exists- she would not be the only one who would reach for a recording device.

 

I'm just thinking about the people directly involved. Especially both.

 

I guess one of them recording the time the staff (which I'm assuming is security) knocks on the door- it's possible that he recorded that to keep a record of it- but that would also mean he recorded his husband going out and over the railing (sound only, realistically).

 

But the victim- I'm not sure what part of this he would have recorded.

 

Rationally thinking with 20/20 hindsight- IF I were recording a harassment issue, I would be planning on using that to punish the harasser... Which would put me in a totally different mindset, I *rationally* think.

[Fury1995]

Having other people around filming what was going on makes 100% sense. People have posted on ship fight videos.

 

And I would almost expect more than the one film that was on youtube exists- she would not be the only one who would reach for a recording device.

 

I'm just thinking about the people directly involved. Especially both.

 

I guess one of them recording the time the staff (which I'm assuming is security) knocks on the door- it's possible that he recorded that to keep a record of it- but that would also mean he recorded his husband going out and over the railing (sound only, realistically).

 

But the victim- I'm not sure what part of this he would have recorded.

 

Rationally thinking with 20/20 hindsight- IF I were recording a harassment issue, I would be planning on using that to punish the harasser... Which would put me in a totally different mindset, I *rationally* think.

 

There is a second and third video already out there..

 

You're right. I wonder how many more there are.

 

The other one I've seen is shorter in duration and is filmed forward of the lifeboat. You can see his feet dangling and not much to hold on to. You can also see just how far away his reach is from the crew member holding onto his left hand.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Fury1995
spelling

[A&L_Ont]

No, it is not "beyond the realm of possibility", but based on my experience, and the almost universal presence of a gay community in a ship's crew, sometimes a significant presence, I don't believe that this happened. I believe that any gay bashing most likely came from other passengers, if it happened at all.

 

I have no horse in this race for or against RCI, I stick with facts and observations based on my years of experience. I call it like I see it, regardless of which line is involved.

 

Lets look at the statements in the Sun Sentinel article:

 

"There was some altercation, a fight, more anti-gay remarks," said Winkleman.

 

When Bernardo returned to the couple's room after midnight, he was "definitely inebriated, crying, swearing at crew members who may have followed him," Winkleman said. "He was so angry he threw a lamp, a chair."

 

If he had been in a "fight" and was "definitely inebriated" as the plaintiff's own lawyer stipulates, then the "crew members who may have followed him" would have been Security, we all know that. And they have the right to do so, to protect the company's property, other passengers, and the person involved. Then he damaged company property, again as the plaintiff's lawyer stipulates. This warrants a visit from Security.

 

After a second visit to the room by security staff, "there is another long altercation, with maybe as many as five or six crew members," Winkleman said.

 

Were these five or six crew members from Security and/or the Staff Captain's staff, or were they homophobic crew just there to sling taunts? It's my experience that whenever Security shows up, the rest of the crew avoid that area like the plague, because they would then be called for statements, and the video would be under scrutiny. Also, due to the video scrutiny, Security would not have allowed crew to be in passenger areas where they were not allowed. Since the original altercation happened in a bar, if it was crew originated, it would be bar staff that did it, and they would have no justification in being at a guest's cabin, and liable for termination for doing so.

 

The door to the balcony was open, Winkleman said, "and [bernardo] falls over into the life boat."

 

How does a confrontation in their cabin and an open balcony door equate into someone falling over the railing? Remember, this is the plaintiff's lawyer's words, not mine or RCI's. Without getting into the whole falling vs. climbing over the railing thing, I think everyone here can stipulate that unless you are as tall as Yao Ming, the top of the railing is above your center of gravity and "falling" over the rail is realistically impossible. Did a crew member, or Security, throw him over? That can't be the case, or the lawyer would have jumped on that in a heartbeat.

 

These are not all the facts of the case, for sure, and it will be a long time, if ever, before the public sees all the facts. But using the plaintiff's lawyer's own words, in my mind at least, shoots large holes in the story, and my experience on cruise ships leads me to dismiss other aspects. If I were called as expert witness, on the basis of my experience with international crews, the above is what I would state in any deposition.

 

My personal take is that Security was telling the two people involved that if they didn't calm down, one or both were going to the brig, and this triggered the one individual to climb on the railing with the typical "don't come near me or I'll jump" threat. This is pure supposition on my part, and may not be true.

 

I could not have said it better.

[tiger belle]

Whenever a loss of life occurs in extreme circumstances such as this it's pretty standard to retain a lawyer.

 

 

nothing wrong with family retaining an attorney to protect their interests...however, I think what has riled many--including me--is that this attorney is exploiting the situation through the media and other distasteful tactics...a truly ethical attorney, in my opinion, at this early stage would be a silent counselor to the family, if for no other reason than to maintain the dignity of the deceased and allow his friends and family time to grieve during this highly emotional time...it is very easy for a distressed family to be unduly influenced by crass attorneys who are looking to profit from the family's tragic loss...right now, I have nothing but prayers for the family

[Paulette3028]

Why is beyond the realm of possibility that this man was harassed by a crew member?

 

Because this is your favorite cruise line, or because you may personally be against someones sexual orientation? While I don't love ambulance chasers, I do believe that all the facts should come out through investigation. Yes, the victim ultimately placed himself in that position of danger; no one threw him out there. But we don't know everything else that went on. We weren't there. For anyone to claim this is cut and dry is just absurd.

 

Some people here are completely insensitive and I am amazed at the lack of empathy or even desire to know the truth before casting full blame on the victim and absolving the cruise line entirely.

 

Having been on enough sailings to have made friends with crew members over time, my personal answer to the question you pose in your post is this: I believe it wasn't very likely that the cause of the harassment was a crew member, since there are usually quite a few crew members who are gay or lesbian and the 'crew community' probably develops a wonderfully tolerant working relationship with each other regardless of sexual orientation and that would lend itself to being less likely to have them harassing a cruiser.

 

Since we don't have all the facts, as you also point out...judgement needs to be delayed.

 

In my mind if there was harassment, maybe more likely to have come from another cruiser.

[Big Beer Gut]

Perhaps another angle to consider is the man's alcohol consumption. Since RCL served this man enough alcohol that he flung himself off the balcony, perhaps RCL does have some negligence. It appears that this man was served far too much alcohol.

[birdlord]

Perhaps another angle to consider is the man's alcohol consumption. Since RCL served this man enough alcohol that he flung himself off the balcony, perhaps RCL does have some negligence. It appears that this man was served far too much alcohol.

 

And I think that will part of the plaintiff's lawyer's case -- esp if the man had a drink package IMO -- that there wasn't appropriate limits placed on his alcohol consumption. We're all too aware of what can happen when someone starts getting refused alcohol as well. There's just no clear answer yet as to what really happened and I'm afraid that we will never really know for certain. A very sad situation regardless.

[Charger2008]

We have sailed with both gay and lesbian couples and never once have I seen them treated any differently than any other passenger. I would think that crew members would be nice to everyone seeing as how they depend on tips for their livelihood.

 

My heart goes out to the family for their loss and I hope they find answers to what really happened.

[Tura Lura]

Perhaps another angle to consider is the man's alcohol consumption. Since RCL served this man enough alcohol that he flung himself off the balcony, perhaps RCL does have some negligence. It appears that this man was served far too much alcohol.

 

That is a possible legal angle, bartenders can be held responsible if, for example on land, someone leaves the bar drunk and kills someone driving home. If it's shown they didn't cut someone off at a certain point, there can be legal culpability on the part of the bar /bartender.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Tura Lura

[BillOh]

local newspaper report

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-man-overboard-oasis-couple-20151108-story.html

 

Thanks for posting that, it is more detail than I've read elsewhere.

 

"Winkleman said the couple had been subjected to gay slurs from crew members earlier in the cruise. "

 

I'll be curious as to what other gay people have to say about that, at least with experienced with Royal. The only experience (straight married male) dealt with another passenger and a excursion. An employee of the company running the excursion reportedly made a similar remark(s) to a passenger. The excursion owner corrected there on the spot. I would be surprised if a Royal crew member behaved that way, but in any large company it might not be hard to find one person whom will step out of line. (waiting with interest on more facts)

[Tura Lura]

We have sailed with both gay and lesbian couples and never once have I seen them treated any differently than any other passenger. I would think that crew members would be nice to everyone seeing as how they depend on tips for their livelihood.

 

While I doubt a crew member would intentionally insult a passenger, between language differences and alcohol consumption, it is possible that a perceived slight occurred. What one person intends as a friendly greeting or even a gentle ribbing, could be perceived by someone else with a different reference point and state of mind as an insult. Who knows.

[BillOh]

That sums it up.

 

A few gaps in the couples story, to which ship's security cameras will help in filling the holes.

 

Probably right, we will see. I did find the wording of this line questionable from the newspaper account.

 

"The door to the balcony was open, Winkleman said, "and [bernardo] falls over into the life boat.""

[Fouremco]

Perhaps another angle to consider is the man's alcohol consumption. Since RCL served this man enough alcohol that he flung himself off the balcony, perhaps RCL does have some negligence. It appears that this man was served far too much alcohol.

Unless there was a reasonable expectation of a mishap resulting from having served a customer too much alcohol, I'm not sure that negligence would come into play. Serving a customer who is driving? Definitely. A passenger on a cruise? Not so sure. Still, another aspect to watch for.

[helen haywood]

Oh, please. He was an adult. He wasn't getting behind the wheel of a car. Suppose he went to several different bars? It is not a cruise line's responsibility to monitor your alcohol intake.

[BillOh]

I thought this sentence from the article was interesting -

 

"The door to the balcony was open, Winkleman said, "and [bernardo] falls over into the life boat."

 

That makes it seem as if he just simply fell (because the door was open) and we all know it doesn't work that way.

 

That was what I thought , and while trivial to the case, you can't fall into a lifeboat. It sounds like something made up after the fact based on a perception of what lifeboats look like to someone who hasn't cruised recently (JMO)

[ryano]

That is a possible legal angle, bartenders can be held responsible if, for example on land, someone leaves the bar drunk and kills someone driving home. If it's shown they didn't cut someone off at a certain point, there can be legal culpability on the part of the bar /bartender.

 

Well then there will go the beverage packages then.

 

What happened to being an adult and accountability?

[Fury1995]

We have sailed with both gay and lesbian couples and never once have I seen them treated any differently than any other passenger. I would think that crew members would be nice to everyone seeing as how they depend on tips for their livelihood.

 

My heart goes out to the family for their loss and I hope they find answers to what really happened.

 

People who have experience harassment or discrimination normally don't have witnesses. That's why it often must be proven.

 

People who discriminate or harrass often do so in a manner that is not seen by those for whom it is not intended. It's just the nature of the act.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Fury1995

[ryano]

Oh, please. He was an adult. He wasn't getting behind the wheel of a car. Suppose he went to several different bars? It is not a cruise line's responsibility to monitor your alcohol intake.

 

This ^.

[Tura Lura]

Oh, please. He was an adult. He wasn't getting behind the wheel of a car. Suppose he went to several different bars? It is not a cruise line's responsibility to monitor your alcohol intake.

 

Well actually- from Royal Caribbean:

 

In January 2006, we introduced a comprehensive SafeServe training program for all of our shipboard bartenders and servers. The program, which was developed by the Educational Foundation of the National Restaurant Association, teaches our staff how to serve alcohol responsibly. Our bartenders and servers are required to participate in this training and successfully pass a test.

 

As part of this program, our bartenders and servers are trained to recognize over consumption, and once recognized, to deny additional alcoholic beverages, serve additional water or non-alcoholic drinks, and/or provide food. And while the bartenders and servers on our ships work for tips, just like those in shoreside bars and restaurants, we have strict policies designed to prevent over serving. It is unacceptable and forbidden for any crew member to knowingly serve any intoxicated guest. If we become aware of any employee violating our policies, we take disciplinary action.

[BillOh]

Will be interesting to see how it plays out. Hard to believe the atty claims that RCCL staff were instigators in the event.

 

My agreement with this statement represent a bias against attorneys, not against the gay community, that is still ok isn't it? ;)

[BillOh]

Sigh, yet another man overboard thread that will be closed shortly because people cant be civil :rolleyes:

 

I wasnt there either but from everything Ive gathered and read, dada summed it pretty good. MY opinion of which Im 100% entitled to,.

 

 

 

I saw someone else joke (I think that is ok here) about starting a pool about when the thread gets closed. So far, just getting to your post, its been pretty civil and I have learned quite a bit. I'm hoping it doesn't get closed.

[graphicguy]

I've always heard that suicide is the ultimate indication of mental problems. I've always thought the same. Now, you add alcohol in with that, and a fight with a loved one, this is the type of tragedy that occurs.

 

The reports of yelling, throwing furniture and or lamps, clearly violence was involved between the couple, too. It must have been quite a fight.

 

It can be tough to see if a passenger is inebriated, especially if they order a drink at a bunch of different venues and then walk away. The server can't observe them over a period of time to see how they're behaving, or to note how many drinks they've ordered.

 

Must have been a pretty bad fight if secruity came not once, but twice, to break up the disturbance.

 

Just sad all the way around!