Basic Poll: Would you report someone smoking on their balcony?

[Viesczy]

I voted yes using the scenario of "it is so bad I can't stand to be on my balcony".

 

In that situation, I would first say something (as I can be quite confrontational and am an expert button pusher!) to the offending party and if it continued after I'd nark them out every time they were out there and a few times when they weren't for good measure.

 

Why?

 

If it is bad enough for me to complain to you, you're being an icehole deluxe and abusing my typically tolerant nature and have roused my I can't wait to engage you to the point you fall over from a stroke nature.

 

Now if you're not out there curing 3,000 lbs of ham every day, I won't even notice or care.

[DnD_Cruisin]

Cruz, thank you for your informative posts. I have no doubts as to your background or veracity of your replies.

 

It's easy for people to critique decisions made after the fact. Scott Adam's has made quite a nice living at this with his Dilbert cartoons.

 

IMO The underlying truth is this decision (you also eluded to this) is corporate P&L. If safety was the primary concern it would have been implemented sooner.

 

I also know from having been involved in risk assessment and risk mitigation within the insurance industry that all risks where taken into account. In this case: fire, health, general safety, public acceptance and impact to P&L. Basically any risk whether financial, real or imagined. That initial assessment then goes to legal, compliance, marketing and communications dept for their input. Once a interim decision is made, marketing and communications generally determine which "reason" for the change would leverage the most acceptance and the least resistance.

 

Anyway, at the end of the day a decision was made and as with most decisions some folks will be unhappy.

 

Thanks again for your comments and happy sailing!

Edited June 29, 2016 by DnD_Cruisin

[jeixgg6]

Yes I would !

 

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[42CruiseCrazy]

Cruz, thank you for your informative posts. I have no doubts as to your background or veracity of your replies.

 

It's easy for people to critique decisions made after the fact. Scott Adam's has made quite a nice living at this with his Dilbert cartoons.

 

IMO The underlying truth is this decision (you also eluded to this) is corporate P&L. If safety was the primary concern it would have been implemented sooner.

 

I also know from having been involved in risk assessment and risk mitigation within the insurance industry that all risks where taken into account. In this case: fire, health, general safety, public acceptance and impact to P&L. Basically any risk whether financial, real or imagined. That initial assessment then goes to legal, compliance, marketing and communications dept for their input. Once a interim decision is made, marketing and communications generally determine which "reason" for the change would leverage the most acceptance and the least resistance.

 

Anyway, at the end of the day a decision was made and as with most decisions some folks will be unhappy.

 

Thanks again for your comments and happy sailing!

 

 

 

Quite true. The decision is made first and then the best, most acceptable "reason" for the decision is put forward.

 

 

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[Computer Nerd]

I am a former partner of a large Miami based cruise firm and I have been associated with the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) since the early 80s. I have been to more CLIA conferences, symposiums and lectures than I can remember. Perhaps a little bit of history will shed some light.

 

Following reports from several maritime organizations about the Star Princess fire, it was agreed upon by most, if not all the 62 member CLIA cruise lines that smoking was to blame for the fire. Almost immediately, all the cruise lines began taking a close look at their policies. The reason they didn't all immediately stop smoking on balconies was concerns about profit loss. 10 years ago, the percentage of Americans smoking was about 7% higher than it is today and the reality is, the demographics of certain cruise lines, most notably Carnival, include higher numbers of smokers than other lines. Factor in international passengers and European itineraries, and the concern over profit loss grew.

 

Celebrity was the only line at the time to recognize that profit loss did not trump passenger safety. Being a line whose demographics didn't attract quite as many smokers as the corporate flag lines (CCL, RCI and NCL), they were the first to react and they knew at the time they might have to eventually reverse their policy. Other lines like Princess took note and frankly, they wanted to wait and see if this would hurt Celebrity and the RCCL stock. After a couple years of watching Celebrity's success grow rather than dwindle, Princess took the leap and slowly but surely, the other lines started falling in. One other thing - the more lines that stopped balcony smoking, the more complaints started being registered by passengers of other lines who wanted to see the same policy instated.

 

Today, HAL is the only major line that is a hold out, and those days are numbered. It's not only passenger complaints that are going to force their hand, it's also HAL's insurers.

 

So yes, fire hazard was actually the root cause that started this snowball of all the lines putting a stop to it.

 

so a cigarette butt flicked from a balcony cabin on deck 9 is inherently more dangerous than a cigarette butt flicked from the smoking area on deck 10. :rolleyes:

 

sorry but i disagree. while i agree they use fire hazard as their excuse, not for one minute do i believe that fire hazards are the real reason due to continuing to allow on deck smoking. sorry but it is illogical.

[Computer Nerd]

Call Carnival and they will say just the opposite.

 

and we all know that every answer given by a carnival rep on the phone is 100 percent accurate and true. :p

 

if it isn't in writing it isn't valid. now if you can point it out on the carnival website where one has a right to a smoke free balcony you might have a valid point.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Computer Nerd

[spleenstomper]

If they are chain smoking out there all day every day and night, then maybe.

 

Occasionally... No.

[First and Ten]

Below is as per Carnival....I don't see where it says that you are guaranteed you wont get a whiff of smoke while on your balcony:

 

 

Smoking Policy

 

 

 

All staterooms and suite accommodations are an entirely smoke free environment, including the outside balcony. This policy includes all forms of smoking, including but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, electronic cigarettes (E-cigarettes), tobacco pipes and personal vaporizers.

 

Cigarette, electronic cigarette and personal vaporizer smoking will only be permitted in designated exterior open deck areas, as well as our night clubs (except on Carnival Sunshine and Carnival Vista), and in certain areas within the casino (for playing guests while at designated slot machines and table games) and the casino bar. Cigar and tobacco pipe smoking will only be allowed in designated exterior open deck areas.

 

Guests who smoke in their staterooms or on their balconies will be assessed a $250 cleaning and refreshing fee on their Sail & Sign account. Information on this fee is included in Carnival's cruise ticket contract. Guest agrees to strictly comply with Carnival's non-smoking policy.

Edited June 29, 2016 by First and Ten

[sparks1093]

Below is as per Carnival....I don't see where it says that you are guaranteed you wont get a whiff of smoke while on your balcony:

 

 

Smoking Policy

 

 

 

All staterooms and suite accommodations are an entirely smoke free environment, including the outside balcony. This policy includes all forms of smoking, including but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, electronic cigarettes (E-cigarettes), tobacco pipes and personal vaporizers.

 

Cigarette, electronic cigarette and personal vaporizer smoking will only be permitted in designated exterior open deck areas, as well as our night clubs (except on Carnival Sunshine and Carnival Vista), and in certain areas within the casino (for playing guests while at designated slot machines and table games) and the casino bar. Cigar and tobacco pipe smoking will only be allowed in designated exterior open deck areas.

 

Guests who smoke in their staterooms or on their balconies will be assessed a $250 cleaning and refreshing fee on their Sail & Sign account. Information on this fee is included in Carnival's cruise ticket contract. Guest agrees to strictly comply with Carnival's non-smoking policy.

 

I don't think anyone is looking for a guarantee, just a reasonable expectation to be free from cigarette smoke all of the time. A whiff of cigarette smoke for most isn't an issue but someone chain smoking on the balcony next door would be an issue for many.

[42CruiseCrazy]

so a cigarette butt flicked from a balcony cabin on deck 9 is inherently more dangerous than a cigarette butt flicked from the smoking area on deck 10. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

sorry but i disagree. while i agree they use fire hazard as their excuse, not for one minute do i believe that fire hazards are the real reason due to continuing to allow on deck smoking. sorry but it is illogical.

 

 

 

The cigarette butt flicked off of the public deck on Lido is just as potentially dangerous as the one flicked from the balcony one deck below. The fact is it is against the rules to do it and it endangers everyone. The fact that someone doing it on the Lido deck might get caught and be kicked off the ship makes the policy sensible. Also the smoker who is on their own balcony and can't be caught is more likely to do it.

 

 

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Edited June 29, 2016 by 42CruiseCrazy

[Computer Nerd]

The cigarette butt flicked off of the public deck on Lido is just as potentially dangerous as the one flicked from the balcony one deck below. The fact is it is against the rules to do it and it endangers everyone. The fact that someone doing it on the Lido deck might get caught and be kicked off the ship makes the policy sensible. Also the smoker who is on their own balcony and can't be caught is more likely to do it.

 

 

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it's interesting how one assumes that doing something against the rules in a public place surrounded by like minded people....i.e. other smokers......will be less likely to break the same rule in private. if one is going to break the rules they are going to do it wherever they are and if breaking a rule when surrounded by people who are like minded there is no greater chance of getting called out for breaking said rule.

[Aquahound]

so a cigarette butt flicked from a balcony cabin on deck 9 is inherently more dangerous than a cigarette butt flicked from the smoking area on deck 10. :rolleyes:

 

sorry but i disagree. while i agree they use fire hazard as their excuse, not for one minute do i believe that fire hazards are the real reason due to continuing to allow on deck smoking. sorry but it is illogical.

 

Where in the post you quoted did that person say the deck 10 cigarette isn't as dangerous? In fact, they went on to say...

 

As far as the difference between Lido smoking and balcony smoking, I do not have an answer for the logic being used by the individual cruise lines.

 

Just like in the thread that was deleted, if you would take 1 second to try to comprehend what is being said instead of trying to be so argumentative, you'd see that what Cruz said makes perfect sense.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Aquahound

[DnD_Cruisin]

Where in the post you quoted did that person say the deck 10 cigarette isn't as dangerous? In fact, they went on to say...

 

 

 

Just like in the thread that was deleted, if you would take 1 second to try to comprehend what is being said instead of trying to be so argumentative, you'd see that what Cruz said makes perfect sense.

 

I'm sorry. But just because it makes sense to you...doesn't make it right.

 

The issue with saying the ban was because of safety is purely spin by the marketing types at the cruise lines. As I tried to illustrate in my previous post the actual decision is predicated on the P & L for the corporation. Which by the way ... Cruz alluded to this as well.

 

The choice of saying it's for safety reasons, while partially correct, is not the whole story. Once the choice of reasons was made, they then devised talking points as to the areas that were left as smoking areas and that's what was also presented by Cruz.

 

The inconvenient truth is those talking points aren't quantifiable. They should and are being challenged here.

 

So while nerd's method for arguing these points are against your sensibilities ... launching personal attacks doesn't lend creditability to your actions here.

 

We all get passionate about our positions in these "discussions". I fell prey to adding snarky remarks in the other thread as well. Please try and join me in not doing it any more. I'm making the effort and I hope others will as well.

 

Happy sailing!

Edited June 30, 2016 by DnD_Cruisin

[42CruiseCrazy]

it's interesting how one assumes that doing something against the rules in a public place surrounded by like minded people....i.e. other smokers......will be less likely to break the same rule in private. if one is going to break the rules they are going to do it wherever they are and if breaking a rule when surrounded by people who are like minded there is no greater chance of getting called out for breaking said rule.

 

 

 

Sorry Nerd. You clearly did not understand what I had written. The smoker in private is MORE likely to break the rules and flick a butt overboard. As for all smokers being like minded, I would like to think not. Most smokers follow the rules (perhaps begrudgingly) by only smoking where they're supposed to and do not endanger their fellow passengers by discarding their butts in an unsafe manner.

 

 

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[Aquahound]

So while nerd's method for arguing these points are against your sensibilities ... launching personal attacks doesn't lend creditability to your actions here.

 

We all get passionate about our positions in these "discussions". I fell prey to adding snarky remarks in the other thread as well. Please try and join me in not doing it any more. I'm making the effort and I hope others will as well.

 

For the most part, my posts haven't been snarky...not nearly as much as others on this thread. So while I appreciate your wanting to discuss like adults, give the advise evenly. Continue to team up with the person you're defending to lecture me like on that other thread, and the request will be worthless.

 

But on the subject, the reason it makes sense to me is, I happen to know it's correct. I can list my credentials and my maritime education, but that's pointless. People believe what they want to believe.

[DnD_Cruisin]

You are of course correct on equal advise.

 

Nerd don't be so snarky please. TBH it isn't helping your argument. Right or wrong it can shut people off to your truths.

 

Aqua ... Actually I would love to hear what your credentials are. It can help greatly with this discourse.

[LMaxwell]

Why are you guys all talking yourselves in such circles?

 

Whatever the reason, and likely there were several contributing factors, to various degrees, safety reasons, business reasons, insurance reasons, etc... smoking isn't allowed on balconies. So if I've got a balcony I reasonably expect not to put up with a neighbor smoking. So yes, no guarantee, but Carnival designated it a non-smoking area so it's not unreasonable to expect that. I won't be confrontational to the smoker, I'll let carnival know and they can handle it. IMO the $250 fine is way too light. But that's what Carnival has chosen.

 

I was listening to an old Freakonomics episode and they were discussing how a daycare had an issue with a handful of parents picking up children late. So they instituted a nominal fee. What happened? Late pickups soared, the opposite of what they wanted to have happen. The fee / penalty not only was not enough to get people to pick up kids on time, it made the parents view the fee as the cost to continue about their daily lives unimpeded and freed them of any guilt for being late. In a way I think someone who spends thousands on a vacation may just view $250 as the cost to smoke on their balcony. But if it was $500 or $1000, that may be enough to deter them. I don't really know the one and true answer. These are just my thoughts on the issue.

 

I did like the comment that if I could not use my balcony due to a smoking neighbor to ask for a refund of the cost difference to an OV cabin. Maybe if Carnival felt the pain in their wallets a bit it would cause them to correct the issue. Money is the universal language after all.

 

I still am surprised at the polling information, however unscientific and small sample it may be.

Edited June 30, 2016 by LMaxwell

[42CruiseCrazy]

I agree with you, LMaxwell. The cleaning fee should be for a first offense. The second offense should result in Disembarkation.

 

 

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[DnD_Cruisin]

I still am surprised at the polling information, however unscientific and small sample it may be.

 

What surprises you specifically?

[LMaxwell]

What surprises you specifically?

 

I did not expect it to be 60:40. I really thought it would be more like 80:20. Also surprising that as the poll continues on the ratio more or less is the same as it has been from the start.

[Karnyval]

Below is as per Carnival....I don't see where it says that you are guaranteed you wont get a whiff of smoke while on your balcony:

 

 

Smoking Policy

 

 

 

All staterooms and suite accommodations are an entirely smoke free environment, including the outside balcony. This policy includes all forms of smoking, including but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, electronic cigarettes (E-cigarettes), tobacco pipes and personal vaporizers.

 

Cigarette, electronic cigarette and personal vaporizer smoking will only be permitted in designated exterior open deck areas, as well as our night clubs (except on Carnival Sunshine and Carnival Vista), and in certain areas within the casino (for playing guests while at designated slot machines and table games) and the casino bar. Cigar and tobacco pipe smoking will only be allowed in designated exterior open deck areas.

 

Guests who smoke in their staterooms or on their balconies will be assessed a $250 cleaning and refreshing fee on their Sail & Sign account. Information on this fee is included in Carnival's cruise ticket contract. Guest agrees to strictly comply with Carnival's non-smoking policy.

 

You won't see any guarantee that the ship won't sink, either. But I guarantee if I smell smoke, I am reporting it and also guarantee that if the ship sinks, I won't be smelling smoke on the balcony.

 

In the contract, you will also find:

 

(b) Guest acknowledges that Carnival’s vessels contain non-smoking sections. Guest agrees to refrain from smoking in those sections and agrees that Carnival has the right to disembark the Guest for failure to observe Carnival’s non-smoking policy.

 

 

If I do report it and Carnival does nothing, I'm going to start demanding the $250 be paid to me.

[Karnyval]

I did not expect it to be 60:40. I really thought it would be more like 80:20. Also surprising that as the poll continues on the ratio more or less is the same as it has been from the start.

 

I'm not. Smokers (less than 20% of the population) always vote for smoking. Non-smokers are mostly not interested in continuing to beat a dead horse that was meaningless to begin with.

[DnD_Cruisin]

I can answer that for you. The fire hazard exists when a smoker flicks a lit cigaret overboard. On the public decks that person might be caught and kicked off the ship (one less smoker for the rest of the cruise). This safety rule cannot be enforced on the balconies.

 

 

A thought struck me with this solution ... I'm sure it was a talking point used by the cruiselines because on the surface it would resonate with the public .... except 1 small detail. It's a reactive not a proactive solution.

 

I know, I know you are thinking ... what gibberish is he talking now. Here's the issue and why it doesn't better our safety.....

 

A pax is spotted flicking a butt overboard, wonderfull that pax could be kicked off the ship.

 

Except 1 thing...

 

Where did the butt go?

 

Is there a process & procedure to locate and or validate the butt didn't land in flammable materials on a balcony? I'm guessing not. Why? Because they probably can't dedicate the staff to search hundreds of balconies for it. It's just not important enough.

 

This begs the question: How important is our safety really?

Edited June 30, 2016 by DnD_Cruisin

[NHL Philly Fan]

I can answer that for you. The fire hazard exists when a smoker flicks a lit cigaret overboard. On the public decks that person might be caught and kicked off the ship (one less smoker for the rest of the cruise). This safety rule cannot be enforced on the balconies.

 

 

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Sure it can. Smoke on a balcony next to mine and see how fast it is enforced..

[NHL Philly Fan]

However long down the road that it does happen, and mark my words, at some point in the future it WILL happen, I can hardly imagine the dirt storm that is going to be raised by the minority when smoking is banned completely from cruise ships. For most it will be a very happy day but I bet this place will light up like a Christmas tree for weeks if not months, pardon the pun. :eek: