Quality of food lower now on Princess

[Bill B]

So, Bruce's comments about loosing money on the individual meals served at specialty restaurants on board makes sense.

 

No they don't. They are ludicrous. If the specialty restaurants lost money on every meal, they would be gone so fast it would make your head spin.

 

Comparing a specialty restaurant on a ship to a steak house on land is 'apples to oranges'.

[yuccaman]

Comparing a specialty restaurant on a ship to a steak house on land is 'apples to oranges'.

 

Yes, especially since land-side steakhouses are serving prime-rated beef. Ships' steaks are NOT. So, yes, you are right, that other poster's comments comparing a $100 land-side steakhouse dinner to a $45 ships' dinner are off, especially when you:

 

- add the fact that land-based are charging $$$ for a la carte sides which are looooooowwwwww food cost and all profit... which is also inflating that $100 comparison.

 

- you have the wine tab in that $100/person! How much is your tab, inclusive with wine on the cruise? That $45 per person goes way up, now. so even though it may be less than the "$100" land tab, you are much closer to a land comparison given that ships' steaks are not prime....

 

... and prime makes a huge difference- I can get quality choice-rated filet mignon from a large-scale meat-only wholesaler here, at their retail store, for $8/lb vs $18+ lb for prime. (and it's tender and juicy, just less marbling) so that 1/2 lb filet they are serving would only cost me $4, never mind what it costs them (lower)- if they're even serving choice! (Many say they are not- on other threads- which I suspect, because they never say "choice", only silver-select or something else that's meaningless, depending on your ship)

Edited December 5, 2016 by yuccaman

[St Paul Girl]

Yes, especially since land-side steakhouses are serving prime-rated beef. Ships' steaks are NOT. So, yes, you are right, that other poster's comments comparing a $100 land-side steakhouse dinner to a $45 ships' dinner are off, especially when you:

 

- add the fact that land-based are charging $$$ for a la carte sides which are looooooowwwwww food cost and all profit... which is also inflating that $100 comparison.

 

- you have the wine tab in that $100/person! How much is your tab, inclusive with wine on the cruise? That $45 per person goes way up, now. so even though it may be less than the "$100" land tab, you are much closer to a land comparison given that ships' steaks are not prime....

 

... and prime makes a huge difference- I can get quality choice-rated filet mignon from a large-scale meat-only wholesaler here, at their retail store, for $8/lb vs $18+ lb for prime. (and it's tender and juicy, just less marbling) so that 1/2 lb filet they are serving would only cost me $4, never mind what it costs them (lower)- if they're even serving choice! (Many say they are not- on other threads- which I suspect, because they never say "choice", only silver-select or something else that's meaningless, depending on your ship)

Good comment on "grades" of beef. Not sure where Princess buys its meat products, but Sterling graded meats are as good as choice and prime cuts. We have been buying Sterling brand meat products for years here in Canada and when we are in the US for our 5 months of avoiding winter, buy choice and prime and find NO difference of quality compared to Sterling.

The following link shows the "brand" Sterling. http://sterlingsilvermeats.com/

Not sure if this is explanatory ehough.

Just more to think about.

Happy cruising.

[Loonbeam]

Both this AND the statement about moving items from the MDR can be true.

 

Because of the ingredients and extra staffing and physical facilities required, its likely the line loses some money on a pure cost basis by operating them (depending on what people order, Steakhouses are probably loss leaders, but something like Sabatinis might not be as bad cost wise - and there are a few like Wonderland on RCCL where the price point is high enough they make money or Food republic or Margaritaville on NCL where its a la carte) . But there are other factors to consider..

 

1> If those ingredients were offered in the MDR, then the line would incur even higher costs as more people chose them without additional revenue. Putting them in a smaller venue keeps demand manageable.

 

2> There is a marketing aspect to it, in terms of promoting the atmosphere on board ship, upscale dining options, etc. This can positively affect overall cabin rate. They can also be used as incentives.

 

3> They also help keep demand for the MDR more balanced at peak times.

 

4> They offer differentiation between lines. When we looked at cruises for last year, the fact that NCL had Teppanyaki and the Brazilian steakhouse, that was a small plus when compared to something like the Regal. Food/Star Chefs have a big draw right now.

 

5> And from a financial standpoint, they do bring in a decent amount of drink revenue. People are likely to buy higher price point wines, etc when the perception of the meal is more upscale.

 

If it came down to pure cost, the ships would be all buffet all the time, as that is by far the most cost effective. But they know most cruisers wouldn't want that, so they look at how to provide the right experiences at the lowest practical cost and with as much revenue offset as necessary.

 

I guess I'll enter the fray on this one. Bruce's comments are below for reference. I don't think he is totally off on specialty restaurant costs vs. the cover charge assessed.

 

 

 

I've dined in Sabatini's and the Crown Grill and my take away is that the cover charge isn't nearly enough to cover the cost of materials for what they serve in the specialty restaurants compared to MDR or HC.

 

How do I say this succinctly and correctly? Let's say that dining on board is costed out on a per diem basis. So, each pax is allotted an average of $x per day for dining. Now, if somebody visits a specialty restaurant then the cost of that meal is (x/3)+25. x/3 would be 1/3 of a daily dining expense. But that is all based on averages of each meal being of equal cost, which just isn't possible because breakfast and lunch are more casual, and usually smaller meals than dinner, but let's keep it this way for this explanation.

 

So, let's say that x=60 and the cruise line allots for $20 per meal. So, a guest visits the Crown Grill and has to pay a cover charge. So that meal is partly paid for by the cruise line, the $20 estimate for that MDR or HC dinner, and then the guest kicks in $25 as a cover charge. So that means the cash value of each meal is $45.

 

Ok, I'm not sure about you, but I've been to a fancy steakhouse or two in my day and I've never gotten out of a place like that for less than $100/head, and that is going cheap: one side per person, the lowest priced salad shared, non-alcoholic drinks only, no desert.

 

So, Bruce's comments about loosing money on the individual meals served at specialty restaurants on board makes sense. I've always suspected such, but never heard it from somebody with direct experience to confirm it.

 

People's behavior on those first 3 or 4 days on board also is humorous. I mean, on embarkation day a stroll through the HC is like attending an all hands orientation on the sin of gluttony. And yes I agree with Bruce, observing the HC on day 5 or 6 and you see much smaller portions being eaten, plates that aren't heaping, fewer people in line at the same time.

[TorontoTL]

Not sure about the Crown specifically, but, we have found the food choices on other short (3,4, or 5 day) cruises to be less than what we have found on longer cruises.

 

I was going to say the exact same thing. The offerings on the shorter cruises aren't quite as good as the longer even just 7 day cruises in my opinion.

[St Paul Girl]

Since we are discussing how Princess "costs" it's meals, this new option, mini-suites and suites, Club Class, gives enhanced menu items, dedicated wait staff and preferential entry to the MDR.

The price difference between the Club Class mini and the next lower mini suite for a 7 night Mexican cruise is about $600USD for 2 persons. That should add quite a few enhanced menu items for dinning! It will be interesting to read the first reviews of the Club Class in the coming month.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Happy cruising :)

[greenie082756]

I agree with the OP -- we're just now disembarking the Crown after a weekender. We felt like the MDR food wasn't up to par; but we felt like the level of service wasn't up to usual standards all across the ship. I'll write a full review later but corners seemed cut and the staff seemed completely short-staffed.

 

Exactly how we felt on our 15 day cruise to Hawaii.

 

I even stated so on the review that Princess sent. Obvious short cuts.

[sfaaa]

I was going to say the exact same thing. The offerings on the shorter cruises aren't quite as good as the longer even just 7 day cruises in my opinion.

 

I suspect revenue generated on shorter cruise is lower than longer cruise. So this would make sense.

[floridalover5623]

I suspect revenue generated on shorter cruise is lower than longer cruise. So this would make sense.

 

The food selections on shorter cruises might not be quite as good as a long one but the profits per person are definitely higher. People tend to spend more money in a few short days then on longer trips.

[Iamcruzin]

No they don't. They are ludicrous. If the specialty restaurants lost money on every meal, they would be gone so fast it would make your head spin.

 

I'm not buying that line either. It doesn't make sense. If the specialty restaurants are not profitable why would they partner up with a celebrity chef like Curtis Stone? They would be losing even more money by paying for the licencing rights to use his name and recipes. Other cruise lines offer even more restaurants on board than Princess. Celebrity has table set up wheeling and dealing to fill those tables.

[keithm]

I guess I'll enter the fray on this one. Bruce's comments are below for reference. I don't think he is totally off on specialty restaurant costs vs. the cover charge assessed.

 

 

 

I've dined in Sabatini's and the Crown Grill and my take away is that the cover charge isn't nearly enough to cover the cost of materials for what they serve in the specialty restaurants compared to MDR or HC.

 

How do I say this succinctly and correctly? Let's say that dining on board is costed out on a per diem basis. So, each pax is allotted an average of $x per day for dining. Now, if somebody visits a specialty restaurant then the cost of that meal is (x/3)+25. x/3 would be 1/3 of a daily dining expense. But that is all based on averages of each meal being of equal cost, which just isn't possible because breakfast and lunch are more casual, and usually smaller meals than dinner, but let's keep it this way for this explanation.

 

So, let's say that x=60 and the cruise line allots for $20 per meal. So, a guest visits the Crown Grill and has to pay a cover charge. So that meal is partly paid for by the cruise line, the $20 estimate for that MDR or HC dinner, and then the guest kicks in $25 as a cover charge. So that means the cash value of each meal is $45.

 

Ok, I'm not sure about you, but I've been to a fancy steakhouse or two in my day and I've never gotten out of a place like that for less than $100/head, and that is going cheap: one side per person, the lowest priced salad shared, non-alcoholic drinks only, no desert.

 

So, Bruce's comments about loosing money on the individual meals served at specialty restaurants on board makes sense. I've always suspected such, but never heard it from somebody with direct experience to confirm it.

 

People's behavior on those first 3 or 4 days on board also is humorous. I mean, on embarkation day a stroll through the HC is like attending an all hands orientation on the sin of gluttony. And yes I agree with Bruce, observing the HC on day 5 or 6 and you see much smaller portions being eaten, plates that aren't heaping, fewer people in line at the same time.

Do remember that the steaks in the "Steakhouse or 2" that you mentioned were at least choice or likely Prime. This is of course provided you actually ate at a good steakhouse & not something like Outback/Bugaboo Creek & the like! The quality of beef on Princess is probably "standard"(like Applebee's)The steaks in Sabatini's/Crown Grill/Sterling are more akin to "Texas Roadhouse" etc. They are no higher than "Select". Considering Princess buys in bulk like we do, the price for select (that we pay) is about $3.25/lb. For standard grade, it's even lower(under $3/lb.)I drop about $500K for beef. I'm sure Princess drops "tens of millions", so their cost is most likely much lower than mine. Trust me, they are NOT losing money in the specialty restaurants!

[South Bay SueB]

I remember most of what was positive or negative on a cruise actually. This was our 8th Princess cruise, and I have never found absolutely nothing that appealed to me, yes they have the everyday options that are available, but I and my husband would prefer quality for quantity, especially in the main dining room. We actually have done anytime ding the last 3 cruises and it was excellent service as well as this time. Probably the uncharge on the dining in the specialty restaurants had something to do with the lower quality.

I was surprised on the formal night the choices it always seemed to be very special but didn't seem like it this trip.

It still was a very fun time, with great entertainment and a positive helpful attitude across the board.

Next time we might just do a couple of the specialty restaurants.

 

We were on the same cruise. We have taken numerous Princess cruises (we're Elite status) but never had taken one of these short getaways so thought we'd try it particularly since it included my husband's BD. We knew it was a large ship which we ordinarily avoid, and assumed there would be many younger pax and more partying.

 

Indeed, there were more young partyers -- not a problem, just an observation -- and many families with children -- again, not a problem, and just about all the kids were nicely behaved as well as having fun, but we hadn't anticipated this either. I thought the MDR food was okay but a bit disappointing.

 

What really surprised me was the service levels, both for dining and throughout the ship. I'd characterize the service as average at its very best. We often felt we passsengers were inconveniencing the staff by our presence. We chalked it all up to huge ship, short itinerary and a splash of bad luck, but I'm eager to read the rest of these posts to see if we had an atypical experience.

 

BTW, our itinerary said "no formal nights" although I noticed that the Patter called the sea day something strange, like "surprise us". That probably explains the very ho-hum menu on the sea day. I thought it was the weakest of this short cruise, although that could easily be individual tastes.

[South Bay SueB]

We have a large catering company. Being in that industry we know a bit (or 2) about fillers. You hit it spot on.

 

I think many of us refer to these dishes as "sides" instead of "filler foods".

 

For sure, they aren't the dishes the healthy eating folks suggest will "fill" you but not cost many calories or fat -- cucumbers, lettuce, etc -- they are often referred to as "filling" foods, which could easily be confused with "filler" foods.

[BruceMuzz]

No they don't. They are ludicrous. If the specialty restaurants lost money on every meal, they would be gone so fast it would make your head spin.

 

Comparing a specialty restaurant on a ship to a steak house on land is 'apples to oranges'.

 

So following your logic, how do you explain the libraries, card rooms, movie theaters, pizzerias, ice cream stands, shuffleboard courts, tennis courts, teen clubs, and childrens clubs on ships??Last time I checked (this morning) none of those places makes any profit on my ship. Many of them cost a great deal of money to install. Those places are taking space that could be used for profitable ventures. But they will not be gone so fast that it would make your head spin. In fact, they are not going anywhere.

 

You are correct that comparing a specialty restaurant on a ship to a steak house on land is 'apples to oranges'.

For many years I managed the #1 rated (Michelin) restaurant in America. It was also the most expensive restaurant to dine in, in the USA. As you might imagine, it was quite elegant. We installed it in 1980 in an existing hotel in San Francisco. Total set up cost was nearly US$ 2 million. With an average check of US$600 per person, fully booked every night, and a three year waitlist for reservations, it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high. Luckily our owners used the prestige of my restaurant as a PR / selling point for their hotel chain, and did not mind losing money to do it.

 

In the 1990's I was busy taking out new ships for a cruise line famous for specialty restaurants that charged extra. The average cost of installing one of those extra charge venues on our ships was US $5 million. We played with the cover charges many times, raising and lowering them in order to control demand - but we never came even close to the $600 per person I had been getting in my land-based restaurant.

 

I did a financial analysis of the operation for our senior management.

I discovered that if the extra charge restaurant was fully booked every night for the entire expected 20 year life of the ship, and if we charged a $20 per person cover charge, we would be able to pay off only the initial opening costs after 10 years. But we would never be able to pay for the daily operating costs and the costs of the food before the ship was sold or scrapped. Even if we added in the daily amount of money budgeted from your cruise fare for feeding in the MDR, we still could not break even (much less make a profit) before the ship was scrapped or sold.

At that point the analysis stopped. I could have looked at renovation/replacement costs and the possibility of enlarging the venue, but the numbers would just go deeper into the red.

Our senior management looked at the report, agreed with it, thanked me, and decided to add more specialty restaurants on future ships.

 

Just like the library, childrens club, water slides, teen disco, card rooms, and movie theaters, specialty restaurants are expensive to install and can never make a profit.

But they do attract a certain niche cruiser who might go elsewhere if we didn't offer these loss leaders.

[Bill B]

Libraries, card rooms, movie theaters etc. are unique areas/venues that are not duplicating an already existing service. Specialty restaurants are.

 

No business says - "Hey, let's do this so we can lose money." If it was true, and I was a Carnival Corporation stockholder, I'd be upset... and calling for removal of specialty restaurants.

[jeromep]

Libraries, card rooms, movie theaters etc. are unique areas/venues that are not duplicating an already existing service. Specialty restaurants are.

 

No business says - "Hey, let's do this so we can lose money." If it was true, and I was a Carnival Corporation stockholder, I'd be upset... and calling for removal of specialty restaurants.

 

Bill, I don't think I'll change your mind on this, but for the point of discussion and others who may be reading this it is important to point out that most businesses that sell a product or service or some combination thereof often employ loss leaders as part of their marketing and sales strategy.

 

It is very plausible that cover charge based speciality restaurants on board cruise ships are loss leaders. They don't make money, but they provide caché, market differentiation, and sales bullet points for marketing departments. Princess dedicates a number of pages on their web site to all their speciality restaurants. The Captian's Circle magazine and promotional materials often feature "news" about speciality restaurants. These same venues are often times promoted by princess in their video based advertising, like the videos they have on their web site and on YouTube.

 

Sure, they have to put up a decent plate of food, and make an attempt to have differentiated service to justify the cover charge, I suppose all in the name of marketing, but having speciality restaurants allows Princess to find a place to compete with RCCL, HA, Norwegian, who have all "doubled down" on speciality venue dining.

 

Princess's offerings of 2 or 3 speciality venues per ship is actually downright paltry compared to RCCL. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but they are not trying to go head to head, just trying to be in the marketplace.

 

Probably the best example of loss leaders we can see every day; grocery stores and mass merchandisers. Safeway, Albertsons, Fred Meyer, WalMart, Target... They fill weekly ads with items that barely cover their cost and many more that are, on an individual basis, total losses to the store. However, the gamble with a loss leader is that you won't just go in for the two for one gallons of milk or the half off cake mixes. The gamble is that if you come in for the ad items you'll also buy other things you want or need at full price and at the end of your shopping trip your whole basket of goods will be profitable. This particular gamble almost always pays off.

 

So, for a cruise line, they have already made their money on your vacation through your cruise fare. If you don't dine in a speciality restaurant, that is fine. But if you do you are taking advantage of on of the promotional items and hopefully your experience will be sufficiently positive that you'll remember it choose to come back to that cruise line again because you had a good experience in a speciality restaurant, amongst other parts of the vacation that were positive.

 

Bruce's points really all do add up.

[Bill B]

Bill, I don't think I'll change your mind on this...

 

You're right (you will not change my mind).

 

Because, if specialty restaurants were losing money, they could close them and put the savings into improving the food and service of the MDR. Remember wine stewards and what the food was like before specialty restaurants? Then, they could promote the dining as being SO good they don't need specialty restaurants! It could be a win-win situation for the pax and the line.

[desertrat23]

We were on the same cruise. We have taken numerous Princess cruises (we're Elite status) but never had taken one of these short getaways so thought we'd try it particularly since it included my husband's BD. We knew it was a large ship which we ordinarily avoid, and assumed there would be many younger pax and more partying.

 

Indeed, there were more young partyers -- not a problem, just an observation -- and many families with children -- again, not a problem, and just about all the kids were nicely behaved as well as having fun, but we hadn't anticipated this either. I thought the MDR food was okay but a bit disappointing.

 

What really surprised me was the service levels, both for dining and throughout the ship. I'd characterize the service as average at its very best. We often felt we passsengers were inconveniencing the staff by our presence. We chalked it all up to huge ship, short itinerary and a splash of bad luck, but I'm eager to read the rest of these posts to see if we had an atypical experience.

 

BTW, our itinerary said "no formal nights" although I noticed that the Patter called the sea day something strange, like "surprise us". That probably explains the very ho-hum menu on the sea day. I thought it was the weakest of this short cruise, although that could easily be individual tastes.

 

Looks like we saw the same things. At the risk of turning this into a review I'll try to keep it to the food-related things my wife and I noticed:

 

1. MDR staff was overwhelmed. Our waitress had many more tables than they usually seem to have; we saw her partner so infrequently I asked one night if he was out sick. "No," the waitress responded, "we just have so many tables I have him waiting in the galley for your food or you won't get it quickly." Now, one of the best parts for us of the MDR experience is that it's not rushed; but our dinner that night was two hours and 45 minutes.

 

2. If I'm gonna sit through a 2:45 dinner, surf and turf should have a lobster tail. Not prawns.

 

3. As someone mentioned above; is there a war on? Why are we rationing butter? Leave it on the table with the rolls!

 

4. Club Fusion had one bartender and one waiter at all times. That's it. Bingo, trivia, live music, packed or empty -- one bartender, one waiter. Same in Explorers Lounge. On two nights our group went up to Adagio to play Cards Against Humanity in an quiet area so as not to offend anyone. We could have played football up there, as it was totally unoccupied. Except of course for the two bartenders and two waitstaff just hanging around waiting to take our order.

 

Again, trying to stick with food/drink issues here; I get that short cruises may have different cost models. And although we aren't Uber-frequent cruisers (Ruby level), we go enough to notice things weren't up to the usual standard. Our traveling companions had either never cruised or never been on Princess before. They weren't impressed and indicated they'd probably not go again. What a shame.

[caribill]

I guess I missed seeing tripe on the menu?

 

I was just quoting BigBit. I do not recall seeing it either.

[Lucky TGO]

You're right (you will not change my mind).

 

Because, if specialty restaurants were losing money, they could close them and put the savings into improving the food and service of the MDR. Remember wine stewards and what the food was like before specialty restaurants? Then, they could promote the dining as being SO good they don't need specialty restaurants! It could be a win-win situation for the pax and the line.

 

Bill, You got my vote on this one. I totally agree with you. 👍

Tony

[caribill]

So, for a cruise line, they have already made their money on your vacation through your cruise fare. If you don't dine in a speciality restaurant, that is fine. But if you do you are taking advantage of on of the promotional items and hopefully your experience will be sufficiently positive that you'll remember it choose to come back to that cruise line again because you had a good experience in a specialty restaurant, amongst other parts of the vacation that were positive.

 

Not true.

 

Usually at best the cruise fare makes it a break-even situation.

 

Cruise lines depend on onboard sales to make a profit, everything from shore excursions to photos.

 

RCL says they get significant revenue and profit from the sales of beverage packages and high speed internet packages.

[ar1950]

I guess I missed seeing tripe on the menu?

 

I was just quoting BigBit. I do not recall seeing it either.

 

Even if it was on the menu it would be obscured by the infamous "EF". :D

[ar1950]

So following your logic, how do you explain the libraries, card rooms, movie theaters, pizzerias, ice cream stands, shuffleboard courts, tennis courts, teen clubs, and childrens clubs on ships??Last time I checked (this morning) none of those places makes any profit on my ship............

 

Not going to quote the whole post. I only wanted to ask BruceMuzz when he would have the book out that he has hinted at writing in the past? I, for one, look forward to it. I always enjoy reading his posts and the information that he imparts. There are a half a dozen or so insider people who post here on CC who I would like to see write accounts of their experiences. BruceMuzz is definitely one of them in my "book", so to speak. :)

[masterty]

Do not know if Princess ever did this but on my first cruise the buffet had fresh meats displayed like a butchers counter where you could select and have prepared for you anything from a T-bone to local fish. Now the buffet is filled with pre-cooked or MDR leftover proteins.

[Skai]

For many years I managed the #1 rated (Michelin) restaurant in America. It was also the most expensive restaurant to dine in, in the USA. As you might imagine, it was quite elegant. We installed it in 1980 in an existing hotel in San Francisco. Total set up cost was nearly US$ 2 million. With an average check of US$600 per person, fully booked every night, and a three year waitlist for reservations, it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high. Luckily our owners used the prestige of my restaurant as a PR / selling point for their hotel chain, and did not mind losing money to do it.

 

Interesting story...#1 rated Michelin you don't say?

 

That's interesting considering that Michelin doesn't rank restaurants in any particular order, rather they award either 1 star, 2 stars or 3 stars to individual restaurants. Furthermore, (and of utmost impotance to your claim) Michelin didn't release an American guide until as recent as 2006 -- a quarter century after you claimed to have opened in S.F.

 

Up until then, Michelin had only released their red guides in Europe(for European locales).

 

"it was a great success. But it never made any profit. Operating costs were just too high." -- This is an oxymoron. Of course you know this right?:rolleyes:

 

Your story seems very loosely based on the venture of "Stars" - created by Jeremiah Towers in SF during the early '80s.

 

That stated...Please carry on with your 'cruise industry insider knowledge':rolleyes: Don't let me interrupt...

Edited December 6, 2016 by Skai