Passenger Vessel Act

[liketraveling]

Looking at Planning my next cruise.

 

I am looking at the Eurodam to Hawaii. You can board in either Seattle or Vancouver.

 

I am thinking of joining in Vancouver and adding the Pacific coastal cruise to San Francisco. If I get on in Vancouver I think I should be OK to add the 3 day coastal cruise.

 

Would this work?

[RuthC]

I don't know the itinerary.

However, if you board the ship in Vancouver, and disembark in the US, then the PVSA does not come in to play.

[thinfool]

Yeah...you should be good unless someone who doesn't understand the law gets his grimy fingers in the mix.

 

HAL has been at it a long time, so I wouldn't think that likely.

[Sequim88]

From a database and scheduling perspective I would think when the season/year schedule is first set up it would be very easy to make a cross reference table of cruises that can't be combined so that the reservations system red flags any attempt that violates PSVA. Presumably set up by someone who knows the rules.

[RJ2002]

Call HAL just to be sure. They will be able to advise you.

[InTheWASide]

String the whole itinerary together as though it were one.

 

Do you start in and end in 2 cities in the US that are not the same city? If so, this is not allowed.

 

If it's the same US city roundtrip, again for the WHOLE THING, then you're fine

 

If Vancouver is either the very first port or the very last port, again... WHOLE THING, then it's not even applicable and you're fine

[blizzardboy]

Definitely talk to HAL. I asked about only doing the 7 days or so around the islands of the 16-18 day "Circle Hawaii" cruises and was told there's some Hawaiian agreement that prevents all lines but I think Norwegian from allowing passengers to start or end a cruise there.

[catl331]

Definitely talk to HAL. I asked about only doing the 7 days or so around the islands of the 16-18 day "Circle Hawaii" cruises and was told there's some Hawaiian agreement that prevents all lines but I think Norwegian from allowing passengers to start or end a cruise there.

Would you be able to get on and off at the same port? If not, that's a problem.

[tallyho8]

Definitely talk to HAL. I asked about only doing the 7 days or so around the islands of the 16-18 day "Circle Hawaii" cruises and was told there's some Hawaiian agreement that prevents all lines but I think Norwegian from allowing passengers to start or end a cruise there.

 

There is no such agreement. Many cruise lines start or end cruises in Hawaii.

[richwmn]

There is no such agreement. Many cruise lines start or end cruises in Hawaii.

Under the PVSA a cruise may only begin or end in Hawaii if the other end point is in a foreign country, including Canada (Vancouver) or Mexico (Ensenada), or stops at a "distant" foreign port.

[catl331]

Under the PVSA a cruise may only begin or end in Hawaii if the other end point is in a foreign country, including Canada (Vancouver) or Mexico (Ensenada), or stops at a "distant" foreign port.

Right, because even a closed loop (say on and off at Hilo) would require a stop at a near foreign port, and there aren't any. NCL used to take the 900 mile stretch down to Fanning Island and back before they got Congress to make an exception for them.

[AV8rix]

Right, because even a closed loop (say on and off at Hilo) would require a stop at a near foreign port, and there aren't any. NCL used to take the 900 mile stretch down to Fanning Island and back before they got Congress to make an exception for them.

 

I don't believe that it was an act of Congress. It is simply that NCL's POA is flagged USA, so it can start and end in the USA. Same as the river cruise ships that ply the Mississippi or Columbia. They're flagged USA.

[Shmoo here]

String the whole itinerary together as though it were one.

 

Do you start in and end in 2 cities in the US that are not the same city? If so, this is not allowed.

 

If it's the same US city roundtrip, again for the WHOLE THING, then you're fine

 

If Vancouver is either the very first port or the very last port, again... WHOLE THING, then it's not even applicable and you're fine

 

Best answer.

 

The PVSA only looks at what port the passenger got on the ship and what port the passenger got off the ship.

 

If both ports are the same port, or if one of the ports is a foreign port, the PVSA does not apply.

 

If both ports are different US ports, then the PVSA applies. And any cruise that starts and ends in two different US ports must have a "distant" foreign port stop.

 

A "distant" foreign port is any port NOT in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao).

[liketraveling]

Best answer.

 

The PVSA only looks at what port the passenger got on the ship and what port the passenger got off the ship.

 

If both ports are the same port, or if one of the ports is a foreign port, the PVSA does not apply.

 

If both ports are different US ports, then the PVSA applies. And any cruise that starts and ends in two different US ports must have a "distant" foreign port stop.

 

A "distant" foreign port is any port NOT in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao).

 

This is how I understand it. I cruise with my elderly father and we are having a disagreement about it. I emailed my PCC for clarification. He will believe her.

[Shmoo here]

Looking at Planning my next cruise.

 

I am looking at the Eurodam to Hawaii. You can board in either Seattle or Vancouver.

 

I am thinking of joining in Vancouver and adding the Pacific coastal cruise to San Francisco. If I get on in Vancouver I think I should be OK to add the 3 day coastal cruise.

 

Would this work?

Can you clairify which specific cruises you are looking at?

 

I can see a 17 night Seattle/Vancouver cruise that goes to Hawaii. And then there's a 16 night Vancouver roundtrip to Hawaii.

 

Nevermind, they are actually the same cruise. Starts in Seattle - one day cruise to Vancouver. Then the 16 night Vancouver round trip.

 

That cruise B2B with the following Vancouver/San Francisco cruise is totally OK under the PVSA.

 

 

One other note - not all PCCs are versed in the PVSA. It's often called the "Jones Act" but that deals with cargo, not people.

[RuthC]

I don't believe that it was an act of Congress. It is simply that NCL's POA is flagged USA, so it can start and end in the USA. Same as the river cruise ships that ply the Mississippi or Columbia. They're flagged USA.

There was more to it than just flagging the ship as US. There was an act of Congress involved because the ship itself was not built in the US, using US-made materials. That is also part of the usual requirements to keep the PVSA from entering into the itinerary considerations.

Having primarily US staff and crew was easy, but necessary, after that.

[RuthC]

The PVSA only looks at what port the passenger got on the ship and what port the passenger got off the ship.

That is correct.

If both ports are the same port, or if one of the ports is a foreign port, the PVSA does not apply.

That is not correct.

If the passenger starts, or ends, in a foreign port, the PVSA does not apply, that is true.

However, if the passenger starts and ends in the same US port, the ship must visit a near foreign port.

If the passenger boards in one US port, and leaves in a different US port, then the ship must visit a distant foreign port.

So, if the passenger boards in Seattle, and disembarks in San Francisco, then the ship would have to visit a distant foreign port. It does not sound like the referenced itinerary does that.

But if the passenger boards in Vancouver, and disembarks in San Francisco, then the PVSA would not apply.

[chengkp75]

There was more to it than just flagging the ship as US. There was an act of Congress involved because the ship itself was not built in the US, using US-made materials. That is also part of the usual requirements to keep the PVSA from entering into the itinerary considerations.

Having primarily US staff and crew was easy, but necessary, after that.

 

Yes, the POA has an exemption from Congress to be able to trade in the PVSA trade, since it was completed in a foreign shipyard. I'm still not sure that was required, since even PVSA or Jones Act ships can have significant amounts of non-US content in their construction. Part of POA's exemption is that she is limited to trading only in Hawaii, or when transiting to/from a shipyard.

 

Having experienced 4 years of crewing on the 3 NCL US flag ships, I would say that "having primarily US staff and crew was easy" is way off the mark. US manning requires that all crew be US citizens, but that 25% of the unlicensed crew can be legal foreign residents (green card holders). Only near the end of the time when there were 3 ships operating there, did another act of Congress allow some of those 25% to be foreign crew without green cards. There were strict rules applied as to who could be included in this (had to have worked for NCL for 10 years prior, and NCL had to vouch for the people as if they were under a B1 work visa, etc). The problem comes with the USCG's stricter requirements for crew documentation, over the other international crew. It cost NCL at that time (I don't know the cost today, but it must still be similar) about $8000 just to get a new crew member documented, trained, and standing on the pier waiting to get on the ship. Finding folks who wanted to invest the time for documentation (before actually being hired), the time for training, and then the work schedule and pay was anything but "easy". But I digress from the thread's topic.

[PSR]

Per RuthC: If the passenger starts, or ends, in a foreign port, the PVSA does not apply, that is true.

However, if the passenger starts and ends in the same US port, the ship must visit a near foreign port.

If the passenger boards in one US port, and leaves in a different US port, then the ship must visit a distant foreign port.

So, if the passenger boards in Seattle, and disembarks in San Francisco, then the ship would have to visit a distant foreign port. It does not sound like the referenced itinerary does that.

But if the passenger boards in Vancouver, and disembarks in San Francisco, then the PVSA would not apply.

 

Right you are! If you travel San Diego-Hawaii-San Diego, you have to stop in Mexico (usually Ensenada) as the near foreign port.

[blizzardboy]

Under the PVSA a cruise may only begin or end in Hawaii if the other end point is in a foreign country, including Canada (Vancouver) or Mexico (Ensenada), or stops at a "distant" foreign port.

Norwegian has round trip Honolulu to Honolulu cruises. I believe they're the only one allowed to start and end in Hawaii. That's what I was referring to in my earlier post. These cruises do not visit ports other than in Hawaii To quote Dennis Miller, "That's my opinion and I could be wrong!"

[richwmn]

Norwegian has round trip Honolulu to Honolulu cruises. I believe they're the only one allowed to start and end in Hawaii. That's what I was referring to in my earlier post. These cruises do not visit ports other than in Hawaii To quote Dennis Miller, "That's my opinion and I could be wrong!"

As mentioned several places in this thread, NCL's Pride of America is not restricted by the PVSA because she is US flagged. POA can move freely around Hawaii. Please see the post by chengkp75 just prior to yours.

[blizzardboy]

Thanks richwmn and chengkp75. I am guilty of selective reading/replying - one of the hazards of only being notified by CC of one in about every six posts in a thread is you sometimes miss the most important. I knew there was a quirk in the situation that favored NCL. Sometimes when you stir up enough mud it all becomes clear!

[catl331]

However, if the passenger starts and ends in the same US port, the ship must visit a near foreign port.

Except a "cruise-to-nowhere" that doesn't stop anywhere. Those don't happen often though. Eurodam did one out of NYC before heading to FL for the first time.

[thinfool]

Except a "cruise-to-nowhere" that doesn't stop anywhere. Those don't happen often though. Eurodam did one out of NYC before heading to FL for the first time.

 

CTN's have been regulated out of existence. A US court ruled that they violate some US law or regulation.

[jtl513]

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Edited May 27, 2017 by jtl513