The Jones Act/ Passenger Service Act - Back to Back Sailings

[Shmoo here]

I'm confused by all this talk of the Jones Act. I thought I knew what the Jones Act was.

The Jones Act and the Passenger Vessel Service Act are very similar. However, the Jones Act pertains to the transport of cargo, while the PVSA pertains to the transport of passengers.

[Shmoo here]

Precisely!!! Passengers that might want to be free to break this law don't look at the unintended consequences. There is a US Senator or two looking into this but nothing has been done as US interests still need protection.

Not the same law but also the same principal as being able to fly Air Canada from LA to Las Vegas applies.

I understand there may be exceptions to this law but the cruiselines cannot knowingly book you while breaking this law ... there will be a fine imposed on them for doing so.

 

We were able to circumvent this law quite legally and it was an excellent trip....I highly recommend it to anyone interested in touring Vancouver for a day or two. We sailed on an 11 night cruise from Seattle to Vancouver, stayed overnight at the Pan Pacific there at Canada Place and the next morning, caught the Island Princess to sail back to San Francisco. This overnight made it fully legal.

We recently sailed on the Solstice from Vancouver to Seattle. For those that embarked in Honolulu and then continued their cruise from Vancouver had to disembark on the last day in Victoria. I believe you pay an additional fare to do it this way as the Canadian immigration and customs officials have to be in place for these disembarking passengers. Cannot be absolutely sure of this, though.

Actually there was a proposal submitted for changing the PVSA. The new requirements were much less desirable than the current law. Including that at least 50% of the ports on any given cruise must be foreign ports, and that all foreign port stops must be for no less than 48 hours.

[beg3yrs]

Actually Princess ships are registered (and flagged) in Bermuda. Except the Majestic, Golden, Sapphire and Diamond which are registered in the UK.

 

 

I believe the Diamond/Sapphire are now registered in London.

 

Ok Ok!

 

 

What I should have said was that Princess ships aren't registered in the USA rather than a specific country!

[Cuizer2]

I'm not sure if anyone has experience with the Jones Act on back to back cruises before.

 

I was booked on a 1-day repo cruise from Seattle to Vancouver, and the following 6-day sailing from Vancouver to LA. Yesterday I received a call from Princess explaining that I am not permitted to do this both back to back due to the Jones Act/Passenger Act. I was confused as they allowed me to book this, and I have done the 1-day repo cruises previously where I met people continuing on the next sailing ( also returning to the US). The Princess Agent who called did acknowledge that there were cases when people were able to do the back to back (even though they shouldn't have) however that was due to their system not flagging their bookings in advance.

 

I did some further digging by using the internet and made some phone calls, I found out that this Act is outdated and open to some interpretation when it comes to the back to back cruises. I called Holland America that operates the same type of back to back cruises and surprisingly they had no issues with booking them as they are "two different bookings, and you are clearing customs". I even called my PVP (who booked the two cruises for me) and she is now confused as her support desk is stating the same as Holland America and doesn't believe the Jones Act applies to these two cruises.

 

Based on the confusion and conflicting information, I decided to send the following email to US Customs and Border Protection to seek more clarification and outline my situation. you can read that below.

 

Has anyone else had any experience with the Jones Act, or have you previously been able to complete this type of back to back?

 

Email to CBP:

 

"My Inquiry is in regards to 'The Jones Act/ Passenger Service Act'.

 

"The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports."

 

Situation: I was booked on two separate cruises that are back to back. I have already spoken to Canadian Customs and Border Patrol in regards to this inquiry and they approved it. However, I want to see how the US CBP stands on this situation in writing so that I can forward to Princess Cruises as they are providing conflicting information.

 

Here is the itinerary;

 

CRUISE #1 - September 30, 2017 - Ruby Princess - Departs Seattle, Arrives in Vancouver, Canada at 07:00 on October 1, 2017.

 

* As this is only a one day cruise, I would be disembarking the Ruby Princess in Vancouver and clearing Canadian Customs and entering Canada. A couple hours later I would be pre-clearing US Customs in Vancouver prior to re-boarding the Ruby Princess for the next cruise (booked as a separate cruise).

 

CRUISE #2 - October 1, 2017 - Ruby Princess- Departs Vancouver, Canada at 16:30 and arrrives in Los Angles, CA on October 7, 2017.

 

 

Question: I know that the Jone's Act/ Passenger Service Act prevents a non-US registered ship from transporting passengers between two US ports... however in this situation it is TWO separate cruises and I would be entering Canada and Pre-Clearing US customs prior to reboarding the ship, I am not remaining on a ship that is going from US port to US port without entering Canada first.

 

Please inform me if this type of back to back itinerary would be acceptable, or if it would be unacceptable as per the Jones Act (even though it is not one cruise, it is two different bookings)?

 

As previously mentioned, when I spoke to Canadian Customs about the above situation/ inquiry they said there were no issues with the plan as I would be clearing Canadian Customs and entering Canada before returning to the United States."

 

Whether or not the law it outdated, it is still the law. Next, it is the PVSA, not the Jones Act, that applies here. A ship (no matter how many different cruises are involved) may not transport someone between two US cities without a stop in a distant foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. A B2B cruise going from Seattle to Vancouver to Los Angeles violates the PVSA and you will soon be kicked of the Holland America cruise also.

 

What you can do is take either Princess or HAL from Seattle to Vancouver and take the other (HAL or Princess) from Vancouver to Los Angeles.

[neverbeenhere]

The Jones Act and the Passenger Vessel Service Act are very similar. However, the Jones Act pertains to the transport of cargo, while the PVSA pertains to the transport of passengers.

 

 

Thank You

 

Apparently, It's not unusual...

[Cuizer2]

So it seems this act this applies for non US citizens only, and has nothing to do with the actual ship; is that correct?

 

The PVSA applies to all people regardless of citizenship. And it is very dependent on the ship, since a change in ships while in Vancouver would solve the problem.

[Cuizer2]

I'm confused by all this talk of the Jones Act. I thought I knew what the Jones Act was.

 

The Jones Act is for cargo. The Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) applies to people.

[neverbeenhere]

The Jones Act is for cargo. The Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) applies to people.

 

 

Again, Thank You.

 

Delilah, She's a Lady also explained it to me that it's about the green, green grass of home.;p

Edited July 4, 2017 by neverbeenhere
someone threw a bra on the stage

[Pierlesscruisers]

Take HAL for the one day cruise and Princess for the 6 day. You are going to have to take two different cruise lines.

 

That is not correct. You do not have to take 2 different cruise lines. You have to either take 2 different ships or, if you're going to be on the same ship, there has to be at least 24 hours between when the first cruise arrives and the second cruise departs. One year I took the overnight Princess cruise from Seattle to Vancouver, got off that ship and got on another Princess ship and took that one to San Francisco. That was perfectly legal.

 

Tom

[cr8tiv1]

Don't get me going regarding the Jones Act and PVSA....It is beneficial to some and detrimental to others. Hawaii is the step child in the middle. Because of both of these acts, Matson lines and NCL have a foothold here (both American Companies/ship owned). The cost of shipping from the West Coast to Hawaii is outrageously expensive. Just recently, we were threatened by a shipping strike. Thankfully, that was resolved...with higher costs to follow (I am sure).

 

Cost of air fare (similar act for air travel) is locked in.

 

I do remember the days when the Matson Lines had passenger ships. How I would love to cruise to Hawaii instead of fly (one way). Not possible.

 

The list goes on and on. Very few benefits to the islands. As always, we are the ones that pay the price.

[Cruisin' Chick]

I'm guessing whoever told the OP that passengers have been able to sail on a B-to-B that violated the law is misunderstanding what those passengers did. Most likely they had switched ships or stayed overnight and then got on another cruise. I have not seen a single person post on this site or others that they were able to board back to backs on a single ship with itineraries that violated the act. You might be able to book these cruises initially, but the computers eventually find the violations.

 

There are some back to backs that don't violate the PVSA, such as a northbound cruise from Vancouver to Anchorage and then the southbound from Anchorage to Vancouver.

[thinfool]

I do remember the days when the Matson Lines had passenger ships.

 

That was the first ocean liner I was ever on...and not as a passenger. We were helping a family friend embark for her trip back to Australia. It wasn't a cruise ship, it was a liner, long before jet aircraft, and she was booked in steerage...and steerage was, well, steerage. :(

[brian1]

hI,we done 3 b2bs on the Coral.Whittier to Vancouver,Vancouver to LA and LA to FL.the fcc on a previous cruise refused to book it for us,saying it was illegal.When we got home our guy at Southampton booked it,no probs.Who is right here,cheers,Brian.

[VibeGuy]

The Whittier to FLL itinerary is legal because the LA-FLL sailing makes a call at a Distant Foreign Port (Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao, Cartagena - something south of Panama) - you could not book the Whittier-Vancouver + Vancouver-LA segments together without the LA-FLL as this would be cabotage/coastal trading, but since the uninterrupted journey meets the Distant Foreign Port test, it's completely legal.

 

This came up recently with the Emerald. It did an Australia-LA cruise followed by an LA-Vancouver followed by a Vancouver RT Alaska, followed by a 1NT to Seattle.

 

Passengers who embarked in Australia could stay on until Seattle. Passengers who embarked in LA could get off in Vancouver either before or after Alaska, but could not continue to Seattle (coastal trading!). Passengers who embarked in Vancouver could sail RT Vancouver, end in Seattle the next day or stay on in Seattle and go back to Alaska. (PVSA can't apply to a cruise that starts in a foreign port)

 

Or you could be me, who sailed LA-Vancouver, got off for six days, and then sailed Vancouver-Seattle. The >24 hour break made it legal.

 

The very notion that a port director for CBP has the authority to waive provisions of the PVSA is so hilarious as to make me shoot water out my nose. None of the lines want to go to the effort to run repositioning 1NT sailings - they do it because they're required to under law and they know full well there's no way around it. Celebrity hated it so much that they took to running empty between Vancouver and Seattle one afternoon and made their first Seattle sailing for the season a late-night departure.

[caribill]

hI,we done 3 b2bs on the Coral.Whittier to Vancouver,Vancouver to LA and LA to FL.the fcc on a previous cruise refused to book it for us,saying it was illegal.When we got home our guy at Southampton booked it,no probs.Who is right here,cheers,Brian.

 

It was legal because the LA to FL stopped at a "distant foreign port," probably one of the ABC islands or in Columbia.

 

Thus you went from Whittier to Florida stopping at a distant foreign port, not a violation of the PVSA.

[caribill]

Actually there was a proposal submitted for changing the PVSA. The new requirements were much less desirable than the current law. Including that at least 50% of the ports on any given cruise must be foreign ports, and that all foreign port stops must be for no less than 48 hours.

 

That proposal was suggested by and backed by NCL who had at that time three ships sailing around the Hawaiian Islands and NCL did not like the competition by cruise companies sailing round trip from California to Hawaii and back to the same California port.

 

It was pushed by the Senator from Hawaii as it would supposedly support American jobs on the three NCL ships. It also would have killed jobs in California since Hawaii cruises would no longer be practical.

 

 

Of course it also would have killed Seattle round trips to Alaska and east coast round trips to Canada.

 

 

The proposal did not go anywhere with Congressmen from Alaska, California, Washington and some east coast states opposing it.

 

And NCL ended up removing two of those three Hawaii ships from Hawaii and reflagging them to foreign countries.

 

The PVSA came into existence long before the concept of cruising was introduced. Proposals to amend the act to exclude to exclude true cruise ships from it have gone nowhere. And with the current Congress that cannot even agree if the sky is blue any proposal to amend the PVSA is not likely to go anywhere.

[Cuizer2]

hI,we done 3 b2bs on the Coral.Whittier to Vancouver,Vancouver to LA and LA to FL.the fcc on a previous cruise refused to book it for us,saying it was illegal.When we got home our guy at Southampton booked it,no probs.Who is right here,cheers,Brian.

 

The rule is, you cannot go from one US city to another US city without a stop in a distant foreign port. You began you cruise in Whittier and ended in Florida - two US cities. However, on the way from Los Angeles to Florida you stopped in South America or one of the ABC islands. All are considered distant foreign ports. Thus the total of the three cruises was legal.

[Cuizer2]

Here is a link to an eighteen page booklet regarding the PVSA that was created by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security ...

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

 

BTW, please note, it is the CBP that enforces the PVSA. Not immigration.

 

This publication is intended to provide guidance and information to the trade community. It reflects the position on or interpretation of the applicable laws or regulations by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) as of the date of publication, which is shown on the front cover. It does not in any way replace or supersede those laws or regulations. Only the latest official version of the laws or regulations is authoritative.

Publication History

First Published: April 2010

 

For over 200 years, the United States Customs Service, now CBP, has been responsible for enforcing and administering laws and regulations which set forth procedures to control and oversee vessels arriving in, and departing from, U.S. ports and the coastwise transportation of passengers between U.S. ports.

Federal laws protecting U.S. shipping date back to the First Congress in 1789. American shipping in the United States coastwise trade has been protected from foreign competition, in order to encourage the development of an American merchant marine, for both national defense and commercial purposes. As a result, all vessels engaged in the coastwise trade have been required to be coastwise-qualified (i.e., U.S.- built, owned and documented).

The coastwise law governing the transportation of passengers was first established by § 8 of the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) of June 19, 1886 (note, this is likely before you, or your parents, were born).

 

And since it is not the Jones Act, please stop blaming Jones for this.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Cuizer2

[cherylandtk]

Please inform me if this type of back to back itinerary would be acceptable, or if it would be unacceptable as per the Jones Act (even though it is not one cruise, it is two different bookings)?

Flyboy, as others have said, any itinerary that takes you from one US port to another without a stop at a defined distant foreign port is a violation. You said HAL had similar itineraries you could book, but I could not find any. All their repo cruises either go from Vancouver or visit the necessary distant foreign port; they do not have any B2B that would take you between LA and Seattle.

 

As for the often mentioned 24 hour disembarkation rule...that is not strictly true although everyone seems to think it is. The rule is when the ship you got off of leaves the port and whether you are on it or not. If you switch ships or the ship goes elsewhere before you reboard...then it is a separate journey. If you arrive together and then leave together, it is the same journey. How you booked it is immaterial.

[lstone19]

Doesn't it also apply to Foreign owned airlines as well? Or is that a different law?

 

Similar, but different laws.

 

There's no "different ship" exemption for airlines. For instance, Air Canada cannot fly you from San Francisco to New York via Toronto even though you change planes in Toronto and a U.S. carrier cannot fly you from Toronto to Vancouver via Chicago.

 

Also, airlines generally need to have all their flights to or from their home country (by contrast, ships may go years between calling in their country of registry). That is why when a flight goes from the home country to one international point and then on to a second international point, it uses the same flight number even if there is a change of planes (flight numbers are very important when it comes to how international aviation works - the ability to carry a passenger from one international point to another is called a "fifth freedom" right and is dependent on it being a through flight from the home country). Having worked for an airline (although no expert on all of this), these agreements are very complicated. I recall one situation where we had no rights to run extra flights so to recover from a weather situation (typhoon), we ended up having to operate a scheduled flight two days late (which caused lots of problems for my department whose systems could not handle a flight that late).

[RRFan]

I agree with all of this except that I'm not sure you can get off a ship for 24 hours and then re-board the same ship for a second cruise. We've tried to do NYC to Quebec City and disembark and spend the night in a hotel and then re-board the same ship the next day for a Quebec City to Ft Lauderdale cruise. (The ship stayed in QC for 2 days. 2 different voyages except that the 2nd cruise allowed passengers to board the day it docked in QC but did not sail until the next afternoon). We were not allowed to do that. I assume it was because the 2nd cruise officially began on the same day as the 1st cruise ended--even though we offered to take our luggage, get off and spend a night in a hotel). We have done B2B's on different ships with no problem though. I don't know of any ships that have 2 different voyages that have a 24 hour "dead" time between them. They always start the next voyage the day the previous one ends.

 

 

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[lstone19]

I agree with all of this except that I'm not sure you can get off a ship for 24 hours and then re-board the same ship for a second cruise. We've tried to do NYC to Quebec City and disembark and spend the night in a hotel and then re-board the same ship the next day for a Quebec City to Ft Lauderdale cruise. (The ship stayed in QC for 2 days. 2 different voyages except that the 2nd cruise allowed passengers to board the day it docked in QC but did not sail until the next afternoon). We were not allowed to do that. I assume it was because the 2nd cruise officially began on the same day as the 1st cruise ended--even though we offered to take our luggage, get off and spend a night in a hotel). We have done B2B's on different ships with no problem though. I don't know of any ships that have 2 different voyages that have a 24 hour "dead" time between them. They always start the next voyage the day the previous one ends.

 

That was explained above by cherylandtk:

 

"As for the often mentioned 24 hour disembarkation rule...that is not strictly true although everyone seems to think it is. The rule is when the ship you got off of leaves the port and whether you are on it or not. If you switch ships or the ship goes elsewhere before you reboard...then it is a separate journey. If you arrive together and then leave together, it is the same journey. How you booked it is immaterial."

 

The PVSA does not care about the length of port calls. Because you would have arrived and departed on the ship through the port call (even though the port call was over 24 hours), it was not legal.

[RRFan]

I agree (even though that wasn't yet posted when I started mine). That's why I said it's not possible to do 2 different cruises on the same ship where one leaves a US city and the 2nd arrives at a different US city. No cruise ship just sits idle for 24 hours between voyages.

 

 

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[brian1]

It was legal because the LA to FL stopped at a "distant foreign port," probably one of the ABC islands or in Columbia.

 

Thus you went from Whittier to Florida stopping at a distant foreign port, not a violation of the PVSA.

Hi,I thought that was the case,but the fcc girl on the Star thought otherwise.By the time we got back to UK our preferred Alaska landtour was sold out,so we had to book a second choice.I wish these so called consultants would know the rules,cheers,Brian.

[Shmoo here]

hI,we done 3 b2bs on the Coral.Whittier to Vancouver,Vancouver to LA and LA to FL.the fcc on a previous cruise refused to book it for us,saying it was illegal.When we got home our guy at Southampton booked it,no probs.Who is right here,cheers,Brian.

By booking the LA to FL leg, there was probably a distant foreign port visited on that leg, making the B2B2B legal.

 

If you had only booked Whittier to Vancouver/Vancouver to LA, it wouldn't be legal.