Check your mail - just got a survey from HAL on their new website.

[bUU]

Guess what. That applies to you, too. :D

I just said as much. You clearly haven't understood anything I've posted.

 

You aren't going to dissuade us, and we aren't going to dissuade you.

My goal isn't to dissuade the traditionalists but rather to counter the traditionalists from dissuading those attracted to the cruise line by the changes it has been making. I've been pretty much a lone voice here for ten years. Now there are several voices. What will the next ten years bring?

 

 

 

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[bUU]

Those who have offered thoughtful critiques of the HAL website could not credibly be accused of "deceptively turning people off the cruiseline", as BUU j'accuses.

You're clearly ignoring most of the comments to which I'm posting those replies. Shame.

 

 

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[Fouremco]

Even someone with the professional expertise and twenty years of experience as a software architect wouldn't presume to know the challenges involved in doing so to make such a claim as you posted.

 

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

LOL. You are absolutely priceless in your blind loyalty to and defence of HAL.

 

Other cruise lines with whom I've booked cruises have had no difficulty achieving a single sign in for their websites, nor have any of other websites on the internet with which I have experience. There are currently almost 300 websites that I log into with varying degrees of frequency, and not a single one requires me to sign on a second time when moving about the website. HAL alone seems to be incapable of achieving this pretty basic website standard.

[innlady1]

I just said as much. You clearly haven't understood anything I've posted.

 

My goal isn't to dissuade the traditionalists but rather to counter the traditionalists from dissuading those attracted to the cruise line by the changes it has been making. I've been pretty much a lone voice here for ten years. Now there are several voices. What will the next ten years bring?

 

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

 

As far as I recall, you posted prior to your Noordam NYC/Caribbean 10 day cruise in 2008 (that my husband and I were on as well) and again now for a year or so prior to your upcoming Nieuw Amsterdam Cruise.

 

That leaves February 2008 to roughly 2016 w/o anything much with posts from you. You’ve had 8 or so years of mostly silence here. Just sayin’

 

Isn’t it a stretch to claim you’ve posted for 10 years?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited June 20, 2018 by innlady1

[kazu]

As far as I recall, you posted prior to your Noordam NYC/Caribbean 10 day cruise in 2008 (that my husband and I were on as well) and again now for a year or so prior to your upcoming Nieuw Amsterdam Cruise.

 

That leaves February 2008 to roughly 2016 w/o anything much with posts from you. You’ve had 8 or so years of mostly silence here. Just sayin’

 

Isn’t it a stretch to claim you’ve posted for 10 years?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Absolutely correct.

 

I don't know what this person''s issue is or why he is supporting HAL all of sudden but I fail to see why he is criticizing the "tradionists" that have supported HAL for years.

 

 

It is what it is.

[iancal]

I spent my career in IT. Everything from sales management to services/outsourcing and senior management. So what?

 

You do not have to be an IT expert, an architect, a PM, or a coder, or have any other experience in the IT industry to understand that HAL's website is, to be generous, not exactly state of the art in terms of design, content, ease of use, or performance.

 

You only have to be a customer-a customer who is used to on line shopping, on line booking, etc A customer who knows when he or she is experiencing a really good site and when he or she is experiencing a dog.. A customer who votes with their feet and with their wallet. Just like most of us.

 

It does not take rocket science or any special skill to recognize a dud of a website after login. It has been that way for a long time. Your expertise in this area is meaningless. The users, the customers make the final decision. Just like it is for the buy/no buy decisions that we consumers make each and every day.

Edited June 20, 2018 by iancal

[bluegiraffe]

I don't usually get sucked into these discussions, but really want to make a point: notwithstanding what BUU is posting, corporate management makes mistakes. That companies are still profitable, and still increase profit, does not mean that mistakes do not happen with, occasionally, reversals in approach or direction. Corporate management is also not infallible and all knowing through sophisticated methodology, etc. Rather, despite such sophistication, mistakes still do happen.

 

The B Schools are littered with case studies of mistakes made--for whatever reasons including executives not willing to speak up, "group-think", etc. Classic ones include "new coke"--remember that? Yet despite that being a mistake (with, arguably a good save when "classic" was brought back), coke was then and still is now a profitable company. Profits, again, however, does not mean a company is immune from doing something wrong.

 

Another example that many Canadians and some Americans will know is Target, and how it expanded into Canada...then, within 24 months of that, having squandered all the goodwill, the American parent bankrupted the Canadian entity and left Canada with its tail between its legs. Yet, so far as I know, Target remains as successful as any retailer can be in the age of Amazon--despite that whopper of a mistake.

 

What about HAL? Immune from mistakes? Well, how about the move some years back to remove the aft pools from the Veendam and Rotterdam? The plan was to put in wading pools in those classes of ships and add cabin space (thus, increasing revenue). When that plan attracted much negative feedback, and operational angst (like leaks, etc.) it was shelved. So, in other words, HAL reversed course and backed off its plan. Yet CCL has, as BUU has pointed out, still increased profits.

 

Again, however, we are not talking of profits. We are talking of a company that heeds feedback, especially consistent feedback, from multiple channels, and makes the necessary changes in response when in the "real operational world" what seemed like a sure-fire winner turns out to be a dud of an idea.

 

Regarding the website, notwithstanding those who defend it (for reasons unclear--perhaps as Ruth C stated, just to be contrary), it is likely a work in progress. The more people who have feedback to share about it, such feedback will benefit HAL and will benefit the rest of us. Consider delivery of feedback to be thus "enlightened self-interest".

 

Finally, notwithstanding statements about marketing departments and plans, how all these executives know better, etc., we all know that plans can go awry. Again, see the B School case studies of business examples of failures despite all the brilliant marketing and others in corporate planning--an older example that comes to mind is the Edsel. Do we not think that Ford did not market-test that vehicle and the concept thoroughly before blowing in those days ( late1950's for younger readers) millions on it--all which was flushed down the sewer.

 

Most businesses value customer feedback. The only exception that comes to mind is the airline bizz--anecdotal to be sure on my part. Yet leaving that industry aside, most businesses, big and small, appreciate customer feedback, especially if its reasoned and relevant. So, again, if you have feedback on the website, please do send it to HAL via the various direct channels to them.

 

In that regard, ignore those who say it does not matter, and that "they" know better. I believe that it does matter and that such feedback will be heard.

 

Safe and happy travels, all!

 

(this message was typed directly without use of voice recognition, but hopefully with some thought attached)

 

Thank you for that very thoughtful post. I wasn't going to bother answering the survey, but you convinced me to do so. And since HAL asked for candid feedback, that's exactly what I gave them, complete with specifics.

[bUU]

Absolutely correct.I don't know what this person''s issue is or why he is supporting HAL all of sudden but I fail to see why he is criticizing the "tradionists" that have supported HAL for years.

I am not supporting Holland America, specifically. I have consistently across many forums been confronting unfounded expectations on the part of consumers. It's toxic. It causes dissatisfaction when unfounded expectations are allowed to override actual promises. We are supposed to be here helping each other have more enjoyable vacations, not poisoning the pool.

 

Of course, I'm going to focus on the forums relevant to what I'm doing at the time, whether it is Royal Caribbean, Disney Cruise Line, or whatever. I haven't posted here every month for ten years, that's a fair statement, but I did post the same things here ten years ago that I am posting now, in 2016 it was evident that no one has been willing to stand for the browbeating you have directed at me for posting a perspective supportive of the changes, and I have been posting the same kinds of perspectives consistently regardless of what cruise line I was cruising on, and really with regard to whatever products and services I was discussing.

 

And the "why" is really critical here: Here there is an especially toxic environment toward those coming into the forum attracted to the cruise line by the changes that the cruise line has been making.

 

I spent my career in IT. Everything from sales management to services/outsourcing and senior management. So what?

So what you're saying is that experience and specific knowledge are unimportant. Uh huh.

 

You do not have to be an IT expert, an architect, a PM, or a coder, or have any other experience in the IT industry to understand that HAL's website is, to be generous, not exactly state of the art in terms of design, content, ease of use, or performance.

Yet you do need to be an expert to know what's involved in integrated disparate systems together, which is what we were actually talking about in that context.

 

 

Regardless, consumers are notoriously poor judges of how well they're being marketed to. Again: Experience and knowledge would be needed to understand that.

Edited June 20, 2018 by bUU

[taxmantoo]

As far as I recall, you posted prior to your Noordam NYC/Caribbean 10 day cruise in 2008 (that my husband and I were on as well) and again now for a year or so prior to your upcoming Nieuw Amsterdam Cruise.

 

That leaves February 2008 to roughly 2016 w/o anything much with posts from you. You’ve had 8 or so years of mostly silence here. Just sayin’

 

Isn’t it a stretch to claim you’ve posted for 10 years?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am really looking forward to the next 8 year hiatus after their upcoming cruise. ;p

[bUU]

I am really looking forward to the next 8 year hiatus after their upcoming cruise. ;p

Not sure I can provide you much encouragement. We found Disney Cruise Line to be too expensive for what it offers us in consideration of our personal preferences. We want better service quality than we had on Carnival. You're best hope is Royal Caribbean and Celebrity.

 

But that really underscores the earlier point...

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[ON cruiser]

I must respectfully disagree with BUU that it is wrong or an "unfounded expectation" that a corporate website work for the end user. Moreover, noting the need for improvement, as many have opined, hardly creates a hostile environment or "poisons the pool" for others, who legitimately have positive comments, rather than spewing sophistry.

 

Consumers in my view are not hardly "notoriously poor judges" of marketing or what works. Rather, consumers are able to for the most part discern what works, and what needs work. It is not, respectfully, rocket science.

[bUU]

I must respectfully disagree with BUU that it is wrong or an "unfounded expectation" that a corporate website work for the end user.

I never said otherwise so you must be trying to deceive casual readers by arguing with me about something I didn't say. Let's please keep the discussion honest by not engaging in such deceptions

 

Moreover, noting the need for improvement, as many have opined, hardly creates a hostile environment or "poisons the pool" for others,...

Not by itself, no, but I didn't say it alone was responsible. That's an implication you decided to add in, and I have to question your motivation for doing that. Regardless, the reality is that there is a pattern established, one that you could readily trace for yourself if you are willing to open your mind to what your research would show. I think it was Sea Girl who recently referred to that pattern as one of recurrent "negativity".

 

Consumers in my view are not hardly "notoriously poor judges" of marketing

I respect your right to adopt an erroneous opinion about something for which experts have already established contrary facts.

 

Consumers are notoriously consumer-biased. Increasingly over time most have become incapable of discerning when something they don't like is actually so good for others that doing that thing is the right thing to do, regardless. What's worst, that self delusion leaves consumers mystified, bewildered, and consequently upset when things don't go the way they want. They criticized the business sense of cell phone services when they shut down 2G services. They criticized the business sense of internet service providers when they started surcharging excessive consumption. They criticized the business sense of airlines when they started charging for the first checked bag. Yet all these changes, while horrendous changes for consumers, are superlatively excellent changes for those businesses.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[Fouremco]

Sigh. Another day, another sermon or two replete with sophistry and arrogance.

[bUU]

Sigh. Another day, another sermon or two replete with sophistry and arrogance.

Rather, another pointless personal attack.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[taxmantoo]

Sigh. Another day, another sermon or two replete with sophistry and arrogance.

You are being way too generous. In that one single post, the ultimate authority on everything to do with the cruise business has labelled the rest of us neophytes as:

1) disillusioned

2) incapable of discernment

3) deceiptful

4) dishonest

5) ill motivated

6) close minded

7) erroneously wrong

8) upset

9) overly critical

 

WOW !!! Just WOW !!! :confused:

[Fouremco]

I never said otherwise so you must be trying to deceive casual readers

 

Rather, another pointless personal attack.

So, your daily derogatory comments directed at others are fine, including today's accusation that ON Cruiser was trying to deceive readers, but any real or implied criticism of your posts constitutes a "personal attack". Interesting.

[bEwAbG]

Sigh. Another day, another sermon or two replete with sophistry and arrogance.

 

All that effort for a flock of one.

[iancal]

Users, customers do not really give a care what is behind the curtain or the code. Nor do they care about interfaces.

 

They only care that it works, and works well for their needs.

[sapper1]

I spent my career in IT. Everything from sales management to services/outsourcing and senior management. So what?

 

You do not have to be an IT expert, an architect, a PM, or a coder, or have any other experience in the IT industry to understand that HAL's website is, to be generous, not exactly state of the art in terms of design, content, ease of use, or performance.

 

You only have to be a customer-a customer who is used to on line shopping, on line booking, etc A customer who knows when he or she is experiencing a really good site and when he or she is experiencing a dog.. A customer who votes with their feet and with their wallet. Just like most of us.

 

It does not take rocket science or any special skill to recognize a dud of a website after login. It has been that way for a long time. Your expertise in this area is meaningless. The users, the customers make the final decision. Just like it is for the buy/no buy decisions that we consumers make each and every day.

 

I agree completely and like your way of explaining your thoughts on the subject.

[sapper1]

I never said otherwise so you must be trying to deceive casual readers by arguing with me about something I didn't say. Let's please keep the discussion honest by not engaging in such deceptions

 

Not by itself, no, but I didn't say it alone was responsible. That's an implication you decided to add in, and I have to question your motivation for doing that. Regardless, the reality is that there is a pattern established, one that you could readily trace for yourself if you are willing to open your mind to what your research would show. I think it was Sea Girl who recently referred to that pattern as one of recurrent "negativity".

 

I respect your right to adopt an erroneous opinion about something for which experts have already established contrary facts.

 

Consumers are notoriously consumer-biased. Increasingly over time most have become incapable of discerning when something they don't like is actually so good for others that doing that thing is the right thing to do, regardless. What's worst, that self delusion leaves consumers mystified, bewildered, and consequently upset when things don't go the way they want. They criticized the business sense of cell phone services when they shut down 2G services. They criticized the business sense of internet service providers when they started surcharging excessive consumption. They criticized the business sense of airlines when they started charging for the first checked bag. Yet all these changes, while horrendous changes for consumers, are superlatively excellent changes for those businesses.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

Could you give us the “Website Design Logic For Dummies” version please?

[kazu]

Rather, another pointless personal attack.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

Just quoting you so you see this.

 

Thank you for totally derailing my thread:rolleyes::(

Edited June 20, 2018 by kazu

[innlady1]

You are being way too generous. In that one single post, the ultimate authority on everything to do with the cruise business has labelled the rest of us neophytes as:

1) disillusioned

2) incapable of discernment

3) deceiptful

4) dishonest

5) ill motivated

6) close minded

7) erroneously wrong

8) upset

9) overly critical

 

WOW !!! Just WOW !!! :confused:

 

 

 

[emoji106]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sail7seas]

Sigh. Another day, another sermon or two replete with sophistry and arrogance.

 

 

You and I do not always a agree but we do on this one. Be careful or a full 'legal brief may again appea r :D

 

 

 

I remember the day we had 'dueling legal briefs.'. Groan

 

I hope we are spared that now.

[MajMom96]

 

I respect your right to adopt an erroneous opinion......

 

 

You do realize that there is no such thing as an “erroneous opinion”. That’s somewhat of an oxymoron. By virtue of the fact that people are clearly stating their “opinion”, they do not need to justify themselves to you or explain how or why they arrived at the opinion they are stating. An opinion is simply “a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge”, much like all the posts you make.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[bUU]

Could you give us the “Website Design Logic For Dummies” version please?

"Seek profit."

 

That's really what what I posted boils down to. And it really applies to your whole business, not just your web presence.

 

You do realize that there is no such thing as an “erroneous opinion”. That’s somewhat of an oxymoron.

Did you read what I wrote? I essentially pointed out that fact... making clear that it makes no sense to have an opinion about something for which we have facts.

 

This is all that matters: Ask yourself how the world has changed over the ten years. Do those changes follow the patterned described by the way you see things? Or do those changes follow the patterns described by how I've outlined things? It's as simple as that. Earlier someone highlighted how some of what I was saying paralleled what Orlando Ashford was saying about the future of the cruise line. It's certainly your prerogative to expect that some miracle will occur and suddenly reality will change so as to comply with your wishes. However, most likely, even though what I outlined is not my personal preference (something which I rarely talk about when we are talking about the cruise line's business), what I outlined is going to govern the way you're marketed to; what I outlined is going to govern what you encounter on your future vacations; and what I outlined above appealing to those with the latest devices, what you're going to encounter on your future visits to websites. You can go with your preferences, and be surprised and probably disappointed, and perhaps even upset. Or you can go with what I described, and be prepared, be ready to adapt, and expect what will be promised and therefore receive what you expect. Your choice.