Deceptive Advertising by Royal Carribean

[Mikew0805]

Carnival also limits how many drinks you can have per day with your beverage package.

 

Do you want Royal Caribbean to adopt THAT Carnival policy, too?

 

 

<------ waving hands and jumping up and down... "yes.. yes I do." Maybe drunk idiots will stop running into me at night in the casino or in the hallways.

[Mikew0805]

Oh wow. What a thread. I personally have only cancelled 1 cruise (with CCL) and I did not get a refund but my $500 deposit was held for 2 years to apply to a new cruise. We applied it literally 2 years later and everything worked out great. As for itinerary changes... That's a different story. I've gone from an Eastern itinerary to a Western last year (hurricanes). I've had a port cancelled and we returned to the exact same port we had just been at the day before. I've had ports just cancelled and we never went to another port. I know when I book a cruise all I can do is hope we go to the ports we booked but if for some reason they change, hey I'm on a cruise. Who cares! In regards to Miami being a port of call I personally would use that as an explore the ship day and take advantage of onboard activities and events. I've been to Miami many times and I would prefer the ship--but I wouldn't explode and threaten a law suit. But then again, that's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

 

Yeah.. not quite the same thing as the topic of this thread. Actually, I do not think anyone here thinks that the line should be responsible for weather, and other instances out of their control during the cruise.

[Mikew0805]

Originally posted by CruiseGal999 Now multiply this 'good will' theory to THOUSANDS or 10s of thousands of people ... it would be impossible to keep everything straight, and the money would be a mess.

 

As it has been said before, this isn't ONLY RCI's policy ... it's standard throughout the industry. It is wholly user (cruiser) error.

 

 

 

 

My point is IF they change the policy to what this OP wants (and apparently many others) to make a res., put a deposit and change willy nilly at your whim. THAT would create a Walmart atmosphere. Buy, change your mind, return. It would THEN become 10s of thousands reserving, putting a temporary deposit and changing at will. It is ridiculous to think a business should be run this way.

 

Red: Not true.

 

Blue: Did you even read what this thread is about, because it is not about changing on a whim. :rolleyes:

[Mikew0805]

Everyone seems to talk a lot about "goodwill." First, Royal Caribbean went to non-refundable deposits because many people were booking numerous cruises, holding prime cabins out of inventory, then 60-90 days out, when Final Payment came due, they would dump all but the cruise they wanted. Then, Royal Caribbean (and all the cruise lines) had excess inventory suddenly open up. People who booked a different cruise because the one they wanted was booked, people who took cabins not as desirable, etc. lost out. Plus, the NRD is generally considerably cheaper than the Refundable Deposit. Just like hotels, etc. If the OP had booked the Atlantis Hotel, with an NRD, and decided to cancel his honeymoon, he'd lose his deposit and no one would bat an eye. Why is it different for a cruiseline?

As for "goodwill." Where is THAT line drawn. We see posts all the time "I got sick, didn't have insurance and they wouldn't refund my money. What about the goodwill?" "My girlfriend and I broke up and I have to cancel my cruise and can't get a refund. What about the goodwill?" "My vacation was cancelled and I don't have insurance to cover it and they won't refund my money. What about the goodwill?" "It rained on sailaway and I didn't see Ft. Lauderdale in the sunshine and the only reason I booked the cruise was for the sailaway. I want money back. What about the goodwill?"

If you think you might, for any reason, cancel a cruise, hotel, airline flight, don't buy a nonrefundable rate, and buy travel insurance. I always take out cruise insurance. To be very honest, if a cruiseline refunded for illness, disappointment, missed ports, vacation cancellations, etc. how is that "fair" to those of us who pay for insurance? Like others have said, it sets a precedence. What then becomes the "event" that is worthy of a free cancellation regardless of rate rules?

 

Really.. 137 posts in - and you do not know what the difference is? Of course no one would bat an eye in that scenario, but if the hotel sold out, and they said "We are putting you up at a different property that is identical in every way, except it is in Grand Turk, sorry no refunds... would you bat an eye then?

 

Second... this is not about a missed port. This is about an itinerary change 5 months out. What becomes the event? You have got to be kidding me? When the cruise line changes the itinerary in advance, due to their own fault/mis-calculations/mechanical problems. That is the event!! That is the only time that they should give those that spent their hard earned money on something they will not be getting, the ability to cancel.

 

No one seems to be comparing apples to apples. Someone said it's like returning things to Walmart, because you changed your mind. I mean seriously.. it is nothing like that at all, since the OP did not change their mind in regards to where they wanted to go... the cruise line did - after they had the OP's (and others) money.

[lazydayz]

<------ waving hands and jumping up and down... "yes.. yes I do." Maybe drunk idiots will stop running into me at night in the casino or in the hallways.

 

Agreed. How dare they limit you to 15 alcoholic drinks a day! LOL.

[The_Big_M]

No one seems to be comparing apples to apples. Someone said it's like returning things to Walmart, because you changed your mind. I mean seriously.. it is nothing like that at all, since the OP did not change their mind in regards to where they wanted to go... the cruise line did - after they had the OP's (and others) money.

 

The problem is if they compared apples to apples they wouldn't be able to make blanket statements in support of the cruise line, whatever it does.

 

Far easier to take an absolute position instead of trying to deal with the complexities of grey areas in the middle.

[DaNana]

And the OP hasn’t returned. Lots of unanswered questions.

 

 

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[Domino D]

The problem is if they compared apples to apples they wouldn't be able to make blanket statements in support of the cruise line, whatever it does.

 

Far easier to take an absolute position instead of trying to deal with the complexities of grey areas in the middle.

 

What grey area and complexities? As of right now there are Non-Refundable fares, if someone books it they aren't getting a refund. There is a contract whose terms you agree to when you book. It says Royal can change the itinerary at any time for any reason. They mean it. There is no complexity or grey area. In fact it is terribly straightforward, as this situation demonstrates.

 

As customers you have 4 choices, book non-refundable with full knowledge of what might happen, book the refundable fare, buy insurance, or book with some other cruise line. Royal not offering a refund policy you agree with, or in line with Carnival, is not a complexity, it is irrelevant. Royal doesn't do that.

[Ottograph]

Since you're canceling more than 90 days in advance there is no cancellation fee. So you get a full refund. But they hold your deposit hostage for which they won't return. Since they are changing the itinerary (not you), it doesn't seem fair and it certainly doesn't promote customer loyalty or good will. Personally, I would dispute the charge with the credit card issuer. You have a pretty good case by not having rec'd any goods or services for the money spent....good luck.

 

 

[samlomax]

There is someone on this forum (cant remember exactly who) that is like 0 for 4 when it comes to Coco Cay. Ive never saw them complain or call it deceptive advertising though. Im 1 for 2. Honestly, since Ive "been there and done that" I would rather go to Miami. Ive never been there before.

We beat you lol, we've booked 7 cruises that should stop at cococay and have NEVER been [emoji39] it's on one of ours for next year and maybe the dock will be finished by then lol.

 

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[Mikeandliz]

Retiredphil,

 

If i ever need a red arrow on my post. Your my guy.

 

 

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[maggie cruises]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd consider having Miami substituted for Coco Cay an upgrade. Coco Cay, like Labadee or Costa Maya, is one of those crappy captive ports that has nothing going on other than being a money maker for the cruise line. I'd be very happy swapping a day in Miami for skipping Coco Cay. In any case, yes -- RCI can swap out ports. Read your contract.

 

 

 

I see you didn't do any research in costa maya

 

It's not a captive port by any means and should not be lumped in there with labadee or coco cay

 

 

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[sparks1093]

Originally posted by CruiseGal999 Now multiply this 'good will' theory to THOUSANDS or 10s of thousands of people ... it would be impossible to keep everything straight, and the money would be a mess.

 

As it has been said before, this isn't ONLY RCI's policy ... it's standard throughout the industry. It is wholly user (cruiser) error.

 

 

 

 

My point is IF they change the policy to what this OP wants (and apparently many others) to make a res., put a deposit and change willy nilly at your whim. THAT would create a Walmart atmosphere. Buy, change your mind, return. It would THEN become 10s of thousands reserving, putting a temporary deposit and changing at will. It is ridiculous to think a business should be run this way.

 

What you describe is exactly what exists with refundable deposits. As pointed out earlier in the thread anyone can put a deposit down on a cruise and then cancel it before the final payment date for no reason at all. And no one is arguing that Royal should refund the non-refundable deposit willy nilly at the passenger's whim expect when Royal changes the itinerary and therefore changes the terms of the booking.

[sparks1093]

Well, I have to say that you folks have changed my mind. After participating in this thread and thinking about it I can now say that I think Royal is absolutely legally obligated to refund the OP's money and can be challenged in court. Why? There are two sets of terms and conditions at play here- the terms of the booking (non-refundable deposit) and the cruise contract itself. In any contract there has to be offer and acceptance. When OP booked he was booking a certain itinerary with certain booking conditions. Offer and acceptance, valid contract. Royal unilaterally changed the terms of the booking by changing the itinerary. Since the OP does not accept this there is no longer an offer with acceptance and no longer a contract.

 

If I were the OP I would present it to my credit card company just this way in a credit card dispute. No need for lawyers at all.

[uksimonusa]

Can you not upgrade your cabin to a cabin with a refundable price, I know you can go the other way.?

[Clarea]

Can you not upgrade your cabin to a cabin with a refundable price, I know you can go the other way.?

No, once a booking is non-refundable, you cannot change to refundable.

[papaflamingo]

Really.. 137 posts in - and you do not know what the difference is? Of course no one would bat an eye in that scenario, but if the hotel sold out, and they said "We are putting you up at a different property that is identical in every way, except it is in Grand Turk, sorry no refunds... would you bat an eye then?

 

Second... this is not about a missed port. This is about an itinerary change 5 months out. What becomes the event? You have got to be kidding me? When the cruise line changes the itinerary in advance, due to their own fault/mis-calculations/mechanical problems. That is the event!! That is the only time that they should give those that spent their hard earned money on something they will not be getting, the ability to cancel.

 

No one seems to be comparing apples to apples. Someone said it's like returning things to Walmart, because you changed your mind. I mean seriously.. it is nothing like that at all, since the OP did not change their mind in regards to where they wanted to go... the cruise line did - after they had the OP's (and others) money.

 

 

First, changing hotels is like changing ships and cabins not itineraries. If someone booked Allure in a JS and it was substituted by Rhapsody in a balcony, then obviously they'd have a very strong argument. In fact, Yes I have been in your "scenario." We booked the Swan and Dolphin Hotel at Disney World for an Anniversary trip to Disney. We booked in Jan. for a week in May. I arrived at the hotel, and at checkin, was told that the hotel was full but they'd reserved us into a new hotel and will pay for the FIRST night (they said they knew this for a couple days and never contacted me). The "new" hotel was the All Star Sports Resort. NOW, anyone who's been to Disney knows that the All Star Sports Resort is a family hotel that is the "Motel 6" of Disney World. So, sure, it'd be like booking Allure and being sent on Carnival Ecstacy. No offense to Ecstacy, but it isn't Allure. So, my options? Take the All Star Sports Resort, or convince them to give me a different hotel. So we opted for the Caribbean Beach Resort, the "La Quinta" of Disney. Still not "Allure," but not "Ecstacy." Oh yeah, they picked up the first night, and then we had to pay for the rest at the going rate. The net difference was minimal because they paid for the first night. But it wasn't the level of hotel I originally booked. So, was I out money? Sure if you consider I paid a higher nightly rate for a lesser hotel. So, I HAVE been in your scenario. And guess what? The hotel has EVERY legal right to do that.

Second, "This is about an itinerary change 5 months out." True. So the OP could have simply cancelled for a $200 cancellation fee, and booked another ship at another time, applying the balance of what he paid to the new cruise. That is how a non-refundable deposit works. Nothing wrong with trying to get the whole thing back, but when it was clear that this wasn't going to happen, then go to plan B. Like we did with the hotel. And maybe next time he should book a refundable rate, then this wouldn't be a problem.

Using your hotel scenario. If you book a resort with 5 pools with a non-refundable rate, then are contacted and told that the "lazy river" pool was closed for maintenance. There are still 4 pools left. But you only wanted the one pool. Do you honestly believe that the hotel would refund your deposit? If you want that level of control, you need to only book refundable rates, and need to take out insurance with a "cancel for any reason" clause. This isn't "cheerleading," it's being smart enough to know the reality of the vacation market.

[nelblu]

We beat you lol, we've booked 7 cruises that should stop at cococay and have NEVER been [emoji39] it's on one of ours for next year and maybe the dock will be finished by then lol.

 

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Reminds me that it took us 4 tries to make it to the Sistine Chapel. Twice we were in Rome on Sunday's and not available. The 3rd time there was some constructions going on. Finally made it last August.

[nelblu]

First, changing hotels is like changing ships and cabins not itineraries. If someone booked Allure in a JS and it was substituted by Rhapsody in a balcony, then obviously they'd have a very strong argument. In fact, Yes I have been in your "scenario." We booked the Swan and Dolphin Hotel at Disney World for an Anniversary trip to Disney. We booked in Jan. for a week in May. I arrived at the hotel, and at checkin, was told that the hotel was full but they'd reserved us into a new hotel and will pay for the FIRST night (they said they knew this for a couple days and never contacted me). The "new" hotel was the All Star Sports Resort. NOW, anyone who's been to Disney knows that the All Star Sports Resort is a family hotel that is the "Motel 6" of Disney World. So, sure, it'd be like booking Allure and being sent on Carnival Ecstacy. No offense to Ecstacy, but it isn't Allure. So, my options? Take the All Star Sports Resort, or convince them to give me a different hotel. So we opted for the Caribbean Beach Resort, the "La Quinta" of Disney. Still not "Allure," but not "Ecstacy." Oh yeah, they picked up the first night, and then we had to pay for the rest at the going rate. The net difference was minimal because they paid for the first night. But it wasn't the level of hotel I originally booked. So, was I out money? Sure if you consider I paid a higher nightly rate for a lesser hotel. So, I HAVE been in your scenario. And guess what? The hotel has EVERY legal right to do that.

Second, "This is about an itinerary change 5 months out." True. So the OP could have simply cancelled for a $200 cancellation fee, and booked another ship at another time, applying the balance of what he paid to the new cruise. That is how a non-refundable deposit works. Nothing wrong with trying to get the whole thing back, but when it was clear that this wasn't going to happen, then go to plan B. Like we did with the hotel. And maybe next time he should book a refundable rate, then this wouldn't be a problem.

Using your hotel scenario. If you book a resort with 5 pools with a non-refundable rate, then are contacted and told that the "lazy river" pool was closed for maintenance. There are still 4 pools left. But you only wanted the one pool. Do you honestly believe that the hotel would refund your deposit? If you want that level of control, you need to only book refundable rates, and need to take out insurance with a "cancel for any reason" clause. This isn't "cheerleading," it's being smart enough to know the reality of the vacation market.

 

(y)

[Iowa_Vike]

I'm on the enchantment out of PC a month earlier and so far we are still going to coco cay and Nassau. Haven't heard anything yet anyway. Dont understand why yours would be cancelled due to construction.

 

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[nelblu]

No, once a booking is non-refundable, you cannot change to refundable.

.

 

But you can go from a refundable to a non-refundable.

[waterbug123]

Absolutely no reason for the snark, the debate has been very civil up until now. I still believe that Royal should allow people affected to cancel their cruise without penalty, you don't. No big deal since neither of us has any say in the matter.

 

You seem to misunderstand the gist of what I've said overall. Do I think it would be good if Royal was more lenient in this situation? Absolutely. I have simply explained that legally, they don't have to, and apparently from a goodwill standpoint, they don't feel the need to. Never have I said that Royal shouldn't allow more liberal cancellation when this happens.

 

 

No, it's not industry practice, when Carnival changed the itineraries for many ships and changing the port permanently they gave all passengers the ability to cancel with full refund, even those with non-refundable deposits.

 

So every cruise line should do exactly as every other cruise line? if that's the case, why have different cruise lines? I, for one, am glad they do things differently. I would really dislike it if Royal and Celebrity did as Carnival does and put a daily limit on the drink package.

[sparks1093]

You seem to misunderstand the gist of what I've said overall. Do I think it would be good if Royal was more lenient in this situation? Absolutely. I have simply explained that legally, they don't have to, and apparently from a goodwill standpoint, they don't feel the need to. Never have I said that Royal shouldn't allow more liberal cancellation when this happens.

 

 

 

 

So every cruise line should do exactly as every other cruise line? if that's the case, why have different cruise lines? I, for one, am glad they do things differently. I would really dislike it if Royal and Celebrity did as Carnival does and put a daily limit on the drink package.

 

As I point out in post 193 I now believe they are legally required to refund the full deposit as there is no longer a valid contract. As for you last paragraph all of the cruise lines have signed onto the Passenger Bill of Rights, I see this as no different (and I see the different cruise lines as being different by offering different onboard experiences, etc., not in what should be good business practice).

[Domino D]

Since you're canceling more than 90 days in advance there is no cancellation fee. So you get a full refund. But they hold your deposit hostage for which they won't return. Since they are changing the itinerary (not you), it doesn't seem fair and it certainly doesn't promote customer loyalty or good will. Personally, I would dispute the charge with the credit card issuer. You have a pretty good case by not having rec'd any goods or services for the money spent....good luck.

 

 

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/content/faq/cruise-ticket-contract.pdf

 

You accidentally clipped text from section 7. That box addresses what happens if YOU choose to cancel, and includes this language a the top, before the grid you clipped.

 

7. CANCELLATION OR EARLY DISEMBARKATION BY PASSENGER Select fare programs require the payment at the time of booking of a nonrefundable deposit. That deposit amount shall not be refunded at any time after it has been paid. Change fees will apply to bookings for which the deposit is nonrefundable.

 

You needed to read section 6 which what happens if ROYAL makes a change

 

6. CANCELLATION, DEVIATION OR SUBSTITUTION BY CARRIER:a. Carrier may for any reason at any time and without prior notice, cancel, advance, postpone or deviate from any scheduled sailing, port of call, destination, lodging or any activity on or off the Vessel, or substitute another vessel or port of call, destination, lodging or activity. Except as provided in Section 6(e) below, Carrier shall not be liable for any claim whatsoever by Passenger, including but not limited to loss, compensation or refund, by reason of such cancellation, advancement, postponement, substitution or deviation.

 

It is certainly fair to debate if Royal is being too hash in doing this. It is an individual decision whether to dispute the charge or not. You are not likely to win the dispute. The extension of these feelings to a Legal Argument, are wrong. The language you are agreeing to is clear and precise. The only relief offered is in 6(e) and deals with mechanical failure. Finally, legally, OP is "Refusing the goods and services being offered" not "Not receiving goods and services". Legal and Fair are not the same thing.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Domino D

[RocketMan275]

Well, I have to say that you folks have changed my mind. After participating in this thread and thinking about it I can now say that I think Royal is absolutely legally obligated to refund the OP's money and can be challenged in court. Why? There are two sets of terms and conditions at play here- the terms of the booking (non-refundable deposit) and the cruise contract itself. In any contract there has to be offer and acceptance. When OP booked he was booking a certain itinerary with certain booking conditions. Offer and acceptance, valid contract. Royal unilaterally changed the terms of the booking by changing the itinerary. Since the OP does not accept this there is no longer an offer with acceptance and no longer a contract.

 

If I were the OP I would present it to my credit card company just this way in a credit card dispute. No need for lawyers at all.

 

You want to post those "terms of the booking"?

OP did not book an itinerary. He booked a cruise which allows the cruise line to change ports at their discretion.

 

You should try to get a refund on the tuition for your law degree.