Carnival Horizon hits pier in New York upon arrival

[jimbo5544]

For sake of correctness, there are actually two places the Captain relinquishes command of the vessel: the aforementioned Panama Canal, and when the bow of the ship crosses the sill of a drydock? Why those two places? Because in both cases, the Canal Authority or the shipyard assume full financial responsibility for the vessel and any damages it might make.

 

 

 

Now, as has been described better than I could by a former ship's Captain on the thread in the general forum, when the ship turns into the pier, the bow is in slack water, while the stern is still out in the current/tide, and this can cause the stern to sheer downriver, as happened here. The turn into the piers on the Hudson have been dangerous back to the heyday of ocean liners when tides and currents combine in ways that are tricky to predict (you can have tidal flow one way at the bottom of the river, and current flow the other at the top). Allisions and near misses are not that uncommon here.

 

 

 

Now, for those of you criticizing the Captain here, I would suspect, from observing many more dockings than most cruise passengers, that things went badly sideways far too fast, from "perfect" to "oh, sh**", for either the Pilot to react or the Captain to countermand the Pilot. Things happen. I challenge people to drive and park their cars without brakes and see how you do.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info as usual.

 

 

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[Havingfun2010]

For sake of correctness, there are actually two places the Captain relinquishes command of the vessel: the aforementioned Panama Canal, and when the bow of the ship crosses the sill of a drydock? Why those two places? Because in both cases, the Canal Authority or the shipyard assume full financial responsibility for the vessel and any damages it might make.

 

Now, as has been described better than I could by a former ship's Captain on the thread in the general forum, when the ship turns into the pier, the bow is in slack water, while the stern is still out in the current/tide, and this can cause the stern to sheer downriver, as happened here. The turn into the piers on the Hudson have been dangerous back to the heyday of ocean liners when tides and currents combine in ways that are tricky to predict (you can have tidal flow one way at the bottom of the river, and current flow the other at the top). Allisions and near misses are not that uncommon here.

 

Now, for those of you criticizing the Captain here, I would suspect, from observing many more dockings than most cruise passengers, that things went badly sideways far too fast, from "perfect" to "oh, sh**", for either the Pilot to react or the Captain to countermand the Pilot. Things happen. I challenge people to drive and park their cars without brakes and see how you do.

 

I took you up on the challenge. I parallel parked my car, only using my skills, my clutch, and engine to do it. It was pretty easy. Although I was on a slight incline, I made it. The Captain just needs a little more practice.

[chengkp75]

I took you up on the challenge. I parallel parked my car, only using my skills, my clutch, and engine to do it. It was pretty easy. Although I was on a slight incline, I made it. The Captain just needs a little more practice.

 

Sure, and add in an icy surface to simulate the tide/current, and since your car has far less windage than a ship, add in a howling gale to provide the same wind force. Don't criticize the Captain's experience until you've stood on the bridge and done what he does. Even the most experienced Captains have things go sideways on occasion.

[BallFour4]

The monster tugs that assist in the channel here in Galveston charge a rate based on several variables. When they dedicated a new vessel I spent some time visiting with one of their guys and he described the same scenario of things going bad quickly.

He described the difference in wind as you go higher up on deck of the cruise ship. The terminal can block so much, but when the winter north winds pick up here in Galveston they are at their busiest.

 

 

 

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[declansdad]

Sure, and add in an icy surface to simulate the tide/current, and since your car has far less windage than a ship, add in a howling gale to provide the same wind force. Don't criticize the Captain's experience until you've stood on the bridge and done what he does. Even the most experienced Captains have things go sideways on occasion.

 

 

That doesn't fit his Carnival sucks narrative.

[BND]

The correct term would be "steer" the ship/ You do not drive a motor vessel... You're right tho.. The Pilot does not steer the ship, but neither does the Captain. A quartermaster steers the ship.. They are given their steering commands from the Captain at sea, and yes, the Pilot in ports. It is 100% true that the captain is always in charge, but trust me, in a place like the Mississippi River, the Captain of that ship does NOT want to be the one giving navigational commands. They do not know squat about the currents, channel, revetments, navigational lights etc. in the river. The Captain is more than happy to not have to deal with that.. How do I know? Easy, I have 4 family members who are Crescent River Port Pilots that bring the ships up the river daily.. I, myself have had a 1st Class Pilot's License for the Lower Mississippi River for some 30 years now. I run harbor tugs docking ships... I have done Pilot ride along many times on ships, including The Carnival Conquest and Carnival Triumph. In most instances, once the pilot gets on bard at the sea buoy and the captain has met the pilot, they don't even stay on the bridge.. The Pilot gives the steering commands to the quartermaster.. A Mate is always on the bridge with the pilot, but very rarely does the Captain stay up there

 

My DH is a retired US Navy Captain and they always refer to "driving" the ship. It's just a term they use. He's also been on the bridge with pilots and had conversations with them.

 

The cruise ship Captains we've talked to say they are ALWAYS on the bridge during departure from a port and docking and we've been told that many times. They have a huge responsibility and are there for that reason. While out at sea, you are correct that the Captain is only up there sometimes as there are fully qualified officers on shift rotation. The Captains on Grandeur of the Seas have talked about how many hours they spend on the bridge in the Chesapeake Bay as they do not leave until they are out of the bay or arrive in Baltimore and the pilot leaves.

 

When DH and I discussed this last night, his first questions were what were the winds and currents? It can be incredibly difficult to dock a ship with such tight turns if there is wind pushing the ship up against the pier.

[e150club]

Maybe pier 90 will get a facelift like pier 88.

[elcuchio24]

We sail out of the Manhattan Cruise Terminal all the time and generally have a smooth time with both embarkation and debarkation. I much prefer it to the other ports and the sail away can’t be beat! Brooklyn is a pain to get to from NJ.

 

Our next sailing from there will be on Azamara Journey and I expect that embark/debark to be a breeze. Tiny ship in comparison!

 

Of course I'm sure the issue was the size of the ship and number of guests for that NCL sail. 1500/2800 passenger ships I am sure are much smoother. NYC is certainly still my top port to sail out of if possible, only about a 5hr drive for us and a great time to hit the city.

[PelicanBill]

How often does Horizon dock in Manhattan? (and of course I wonder how many times the Captain has docked here too).

Practice makes perfect of course. I've been on NCL Breakaway 3 times and watched the port camera a number of times and I always see the ship line up to the pier with azipod control as it edges in. Never even close to Pier 90... if there were any concern it would be for Pier 88. I just think Horizon tried to turn into the space between the piers instead of line up first.

[Havingfun2010]

That doesn't fit his Carnival sucks narrative.

 

Maybe it's the same Captain that hit the Baltimore Pier on the Pride? Whatever happened to him?

[BallFour4]

My DH is a retired US Navy Captain and they always refer to "driving" the ship. It's just a term they use. He's also been on the bridge with pilots and had conversations with them.

 

The cruise ship Captains we've talked to say they are ALWAYS on the bridge during departure from a port and docking and we've been told that many times. They have a huge responsibility and are there for that reason. While out at sea, you are correct that the Captain is only up there sometimes as there are fully qualified officers on shift rotation. The Captains on Grandeur of the Seas have talked about how many hours they spend on the bridge in the Chesapeake Bay as they do not leave until they are out of the bay or arrive in Baltimore and the pilot leaves.

 

If your bored sometime Google Grandeur and Costa Maya. They hit the pier so hard it tore a gash big enough to see into some cabins.

.

[chengkp75]

My DH is a retired US Navy Captain and they always refer to "driving" the ship. It's just a term they use. He's also been on the bridge with pilots and had conversations with them.

 

The cruise ship Captains we've talked to say they are ALWAYS on the bridge during departure from a port and docking and we've been told that many times. They have a huge responsibility and are there for that reason. While out at sea, you are correct that the Captain is only up there sometimes as there are fully qualified officers on shift rotation. The Captains on Grandeur of the Seas have talked about how many hours they spend on the bridge in the Chesapeake Bay as they do not leave until they are out of the bay or arrive in Baltimore and the pilot leaves.

 

When DH and I discussed this last night, his first questions were what were the winds and currents? It can be incredibly difficult to dock a ship with such tight turns if there is wind pushing the ship up against the pier.

 

Cruise ships man their bridges (and engine control rooms) far differently than cargo ships. When "under pilotage" (having a pilot onboard), the bridge will be manned by the Captain, the Staff Captain, the Senior Officer of the Watch (First or Second Officer), the Junior Officer of the Watch (Third Officer), the helmsman and two lookouts. Also, when docking/undocking, the Captain is typically the person who actually has hands on the controls for steering, propulsion, and thrusters, and many in my life have been known to "fudge" (maybe a little more thrust, maybe a little less helm) the orders of the pilot when responding to a command that they don't feel is correct for their ship or the current conditions.

[chengkp75]

Maybe it's the same Captain that hit the Baltimore Pier on the Pride? Whatever happened to him?

 

Actually, the Staff Captain had the conn at the time, and I don't believe anything happened to him. If all of the bridge resource management and pilotage waters rules of the company's ISM were followed, then nothing would be blamed on the person who ha the conn. If there was a deviation from the required actions and procedures, then he could have been disciplined.

[JaniceB]

Happy to hear there was only slight damage to the ship and no one was injured. Docking any vessel requires skill and practice makes perfect, just like driving a car.

[dchurchward]

Let's be honest, a car never truly feels like it's yours until you get the first scratch on it. Maybe it's the same for a cruise ship...I think that docking could be very challenging, as even with a pilot, the wind and currents can change and a situation can go from normal to crazy very quickly. I am glad that no one was hurt and the ship seems to have only received minor damage.

[Bjpontalion]

Holy smokes that is a scratch for sure.

 

Seems like NY could fix this.

 

 

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[declansdad]

Maybe it's the same Captain that hit the Baltimore Pier on the Pride? Whatever happened to him?

 

Actually, the Staff Captain had the conn at the time, and I don't believe anything happened to him. If all of the bridge resource management and pilotage waters rules of the company's ISM were followed, then nothing would be blamed on the person who ha the conn. If there was a deviation from the required actions and procedures, then he could have been disciplined.

 

 

That's strike 2 for Havingfun2010. Care to try for strike 3?

[gtalum]

That's strike 2 for Havingfun2010. Care to try for strike 3?

 

But this only happens to Carnival, right?

 

[jimbo5544]

That's strike 2 for Havingfun2010. Care to try for strike 3?

 

 

 

Please do not encourage him....

 

 

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[declansdad]

But this only happens to Carnival, right?

 

 

 

That has to be fake or maybe the captain use to work for Carnival. ;)

 

 

Please do not encourage him....

 

 

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LOL

[dchurchward]

Holy smokes that is a scratch for sure.

 

Seems like NY could fix this.

 

 

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Nothing a little Bondo and sanding couldn't fix. ;p

[bob brown]

How often does Horizon dock in Manhattan? (and of course I wonder how many times the Captain has docked here too).

Practice makes perfect of course. I've been on NCL Breakaway 3 times and watched the port camera a number of times and I always see the ship line up to the pier with azipod control as it edges in. Never even close to Pier 90... if there were any concern it would be for Pier 88. I just think Horizon tried to turn into the space between the piers instead of line up first.

There may be something to your theory, of course....but consider that some of the very same Sandy Hook pilot's, that con the Breakaway (and Escape) into pier 88, were doing so aboard the Horizon. I think it may have been more to do with the wind and sea conditions that governed the approach that day....

[nhraformula00]

It will buff out with polishing compound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bjpontalion]

It will buff out with polishing compound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

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[AAAAmerican]

Howdy,

At least John Heald arrives back in Town (NYC,NY) A.D. 09/05/2018 on National Pie Day, no not the 3.14 , but National PIZZA Day.

Began in the US at Pie man which is in across the Hudson River in Valley Cottage, Rockland County, New York.

No Matter How Ya Slice it..