Two new mid size ships starting 2022

[cruisemom42]

29 minutes ago, igraf said:

 

I just went on a cruise with a group of four where I shared a room with my wife and the other two had their own cabins.  All of us had verandahs which would have been exorbitantly expensive on the older HAL ships (luxury or not), but was very affordable on the newer larger ships.  The difference between oceanview and verandah was only about $100 or so.   This is a big improvement for all cruisers.

 

igraf

 

 

I'm glad your party got a good deal. However, I'll point out that as a solo, an inside cabin is still much more affordable than a veranda, even on the ships with many more verandas available. Case in point: I recently booked a round-Japan 14-day itinerary on Westerdam in 2020. I was able to book an inside cabin with a slightly less than 100% single supplement, and the difference between that and even the lowest level balcony cabin was $2850 (or nearly double the inside room).

[Sir PMP]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

 

The intended smaller ship 15,000 clientele are obviously, as previously stated, for the longer cruises - that is the targeted demographic - those willing and able to take the 30 day cruises on an interesting array of more far ranging itineraries.  Less than world cruise but more than short escapes. The 7 day cruises are best left to the larger ships.

 

( Eg: 1200 passengers x 12 months a year to fill a midsize ship for 30 day cruises - specialy mid market, not mass midmarket)

 

Can HAL drum up 15,000 passengers a year out of 7.5 billion people on the planet to make a smaller mid-market ship worthwhile - that is the basic question - facts currently unavailable - opinions in copious amounts at this point. 

 

HAL today does respond to both travel choices; but will soon abandon the former (longer smaller)  for the latter (shorter bulk)  in a few more years. Yes, luxury/premium ships are picking up the slack, but the plea is for a mid-market, fewer frills ship that HAL has been well serving and can claim as its special niche.

 

They used to own the midsize market and are giving it up to other lines. If  they are going to  compete with their own line, Carnival, they should drop the Hal name and change it to 'Carnivaletto'.

[Despegue]

14 minutes ago, Sir PMP said:

 

They used to own the midsize market and are giving it up to other lines. If  they are going to  compete with their own line, Carnival, they should drop the Hal name and change it to 'Carnivaletto'.

The 80.000 grt. Vessels are increasingly becoming “midsize” unfortunately. 

Most newbuilds are around the 160.000grt. Size. 

The Supersizing is something that worries me, as I feel that the market will implode at one point.

in case of a future economic drama for the cruise industry, a 50.000 grt. Vessel will be easier to fill and crew compared to a behemoth. I do not want to preach doom and gloom, but I see a storm brewing and the supersize vessels are certainly not the best ones to weather it.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Despegue

[OlsSalt]

Is Fred Olsen Cruise Lines a model for what HAL could and/or should be doing to hold on to this midmarket mid-size cruise customer?  Pros and cons - https://www.fredolsencruises.com/our-ships

[OlsSalt]

11 minutes ago, Despegue said:

The 80.000 grt. Vessels are increasingly becoming “midsize” unfortunately. 

Most newbuilds are around the 160.000grt. Size. 

The Supersizing is something that worries me, as I feel that the market will implode at one point.

in case of a future economic drama for the cruise industry, a 50.000 grt. Vessel will be easier to fill and crew compared to a behemoth. I do not want to preach doom and gloom, but I see a storm brewing and the supersize vessels are certainly not the best ones to weather it.

 

 I think the impact of megaships on ports and the "travel" experience has already imploded and succumbed to the law of diminishing returns. Recent highly impacted Eurodam 7 day experience left me with zero feeling for the HAL brand that I have come to know in my almost 500 prior HAL smaller ship days. Zero and I pretty much now know what the former HAL experience can feel like.

 

If people want generic, crowded but cheaply priced 7 day travel experiences, HAL now has the ships for them. But so do many other cruise lines with more whistles and bells.. But no one has the range and depth of the smaller HAL ship experiences.  

 

Those were the experiences that generated our own HAL brand loyalties. It was always where will HAL take us next after we got off our last cruise. It was never, where will we go no matter who will take us. It was always pretty much HAL,  or no go. And hAL never failed to disappoint and there was always a new combination of ports and places to see and/or revisit. 

 

I could never recommend the Eurodam over any other larger ship for the same 7 day cruise. But then I have not taken any of the mega ships for this same Mexican Riviera route. Maybe there are differences that maintain the illusive HAL advantage that is so obvious on their smaller ships.  

 

HAL is rapidly becoming the Homogenized Cruse Line. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by OlsSalt

[sammiedawg]

Holland America does not have the reputation to attract a well heeled clientele to fill up an expensive,  new small  ship.  I don’t think they can “drum up” a market segment that other lines already occupy.   They are a value line and offer a nice product within their niche.  

[OlsSalt]

23 minutes ago, sammiedawg said:

Holland America does not have the reputation to attract a well heeled clientele to fill up an expensive,  new small  ship.  I don’t think they can “drum up” a market segment that other lines already occupy.   They are a value line and offer a nice product within their niche.  

 

Again for the sake of argument, we are not talking about another "well-heeled" passenger base. They have plenty to choose from already. The mid-market, fewer frills, travel oriented passenger with more time than money to still enjoy the longer and unique itineraries.

 

If we can focus on the demographic potential of that group, maybe we can come up with 14,098 more of them. than just me and DH.  Who have enjoyed 500 HAL days in that exact category.  Shall we be totally orphaned now? In this world of 7.5 billion people..

[RDC1]

5 hours ago, iancal said:

How many new builds has HAL done in the past ten years and how many builds have been announced?  How many of that total would be considered smaller ships?

 

What ships does HAL currently have on the auction block?  Has HAL announced any plans to do  a complete refit on any of their smaller ships in order to extend their life by 10/15 years or more?

 

Those answers should provide a fairly good indication as to  where HAL is headed vis a vis ship size.

no line owned by ccl is sailing a ship over 30 years. Very few over 25. So an upper limit for retirement of each class can be set using those two ages as boundary conditions 25 as min and 30 as max.

[RDC1]

56 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Again for the sake of argument, we are not talking about another "well-heeled" passenger base. They have plenty to choose from already. The mid-market, fewer frills, travel oriented passenger with more time than money to still enjoy the longer and unique itineraries.

 

If we can focus on the demographic potential of that group, maybe we can come up with 14,098 more of them. than just me and DH.  Who have enjoyed 500 HAL days in that exact category.  Shall we be totally orphaned now? In this world of 7.5 billion people..

at what fare?  the problem is that the current fare levels are not supportable with new build smaller ships.  

 

at current fare level plenty would want to sale, at the fare levels required to support new builds, not so much. 

[Jimbo59]

The New Statendam goes to Cozumel in February. The daily port load on some days is over 25,000 passengers. This will not be a good experience for anyone.

 

 In another year, there will be more giant ships. HAL should go to smaller ports, maybe spend two days including an overnight at Half Moon Cay.

[someotherguy]

It's interesting to do some pricing.

 

The second half of the Prinsendam's current Grand South America and Antarctica Voyage is available for $1,999 pp inside ($57 pp/night), or $3,598 solo ($102 per night).  That's 35 days from BsAs via the Amazon to Ft Lauderdale.  A pretty good itinerary in a smallish ship.  A few weeks ago, the first half (currently in progress) was similarly priced (and it's going via Antarctica).

 

More generally, go to the vacat!0nst0g0 web site and select "custom search".  Then choose "To month" Dec 2019, "min nights" 21, "max price" $5000, "exclude lines" Costa and MSC, "exclude ports" Ft Lauderdale (to get rid of Caribbean commodity cruises, though it will also exclude some repositionings), and hit "show me the deals".

 

Then on the page that comes up click "price per night" on the blue bar, to the right.  This will change the right hand column.  Click on the column header.  This will sort by price per night.

 

Now, what do you see?

 

The majority of the cruises shown at the top (cheapest) of each section are HAL.  Many are on the Maasdam.  These are inside cabins, smallish ships, interesting itineraries, just what we are talking about here--and many are around $100/pp/night.

 

I doubt that is profitable.  My conclusion is that HAL has no pricing power and certainly cannot command a price that would cover a new build of this size.

 

You'll also notice Koningsdam and Nieuw Statendam show up a lot too.

 

[terrydtx]

27 minutes ago, Jimbo59 said:

In another year, there will be more giant ships. HAL should go to smaller ports, maybe spend two days including an overnight at Half Moon Cay.

I agree about the smaller ports, like Tortola in BVI would be great. But why would anyone want to overnight in HMC? There would be nothing to do at night there. I could see an overnight in St Martin, San Juan, St Thomas or even Key West. 

[philbob84]

On 1/9/2019 at 1:51 PM, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I'm thinking about a Maasdam in-depth while HAL still has a small enough ship to do that kind of itinerary. I think the future for small ship cruising is going to be luxury. HAL has shed smaller ships and built bigger ones. And Ford is no longer making compacts...

Volkswagen is and thy are making them better 😉

[Sir PMP]

6 hours ago, someotherguy said:

You'll also notice Koningsdam and Nieuw Statendam show up a lot too.

 

Capiche, small ships can be just as profitable..

[igraf]

19 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

....If people want generic, crowded but cheaply priced 7 day travel experiences, HAL now has the ships for them. But so do many other cruise lines with more whistles and bells.. But no one has the range and depth of the smaller HAL ship experiences. 

...I could never recommend the Eurodam over any other larger ship for the same 7 day cruise. But then I have not taken any of the mega ships for this same Mexican Riviera route. Maybe there are differences that maintain the illusive HAL advantage that is so obvious on their smaller ships. 

 

Your descriptions are somewhat extreme.  I just sailed the 7-day Mexican Riviera on the Eurodam and can heartily recommend it to others.  There were a few things I didn't like such as the Lido pool deck cabanas and a couple fake service dogs, but other than that it was a nice HAL cruise.  HAL is providing what most people want.

 

What is your point?  There are plenty of expensive small ship cruises available to suit your tastes.  Nobody is preventing you from going on one of these cruises.

 

igraf

 

 

 

[OlsSalt]

The following is taken from the CC Fred Olsen cruise line forum - who still provides smaller, older, low-frill ships with interesting itineraries, with mainly UK departures but who also offers a world cruise and river cruises.  Four 800-1200 passenger ships.

 

Fred Olsen fans also debate their prices and the overall costs of doing business  as a mid-market smaller ship cruise line.  

 

Posted in on Cruise Critic Jan 2018: Will the economics of smaller ship cruising and maintaning their samller older inventory continue to work for them?  

 

I think they (Fred Olsen) are charging more and more because they can get away with it.

 

Last year Fred Olsen. Cruise Line had their best year-to-date, with a turnover of £202,459,000, up from £181,934,000 in 2016. I need not tell you that for a cruise line that runs four older ships, which they only value at £48,691,000 (all 4 vessels), these numbers look good. To put this into context, Cruise & Maritime Voyages, a line of similar size, managed to turnover £100,169,386  in the same period. 

 

2018 year-to-date for Fred. Olsen  looks even better than 2017, with the line having taken £1.6 million in transactions on November 19, 2018.  We are still waiting for their full year results, but I have no doubt their figures will be even better than 2017. Given the scale of their operation, these numbers are impressive. Hence, I believe they are increasing their prices. However, there will come a point when they value proposition versus price people are willing to pay will even out, and it is important they do not push their luck beyond that. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by OlsSalt

[cruisemom42]

Regarding  Fred Olsen -- there are plenty of folks on that board complaining about the price not being good value, especially comparing accommodations between the older, smaller ships in the FO fleet versus new, bigger (and cheaper) ships now readily available for UK cruisers.  Yes, they are a standalone line and yes, they have smaller ships that appear to be profitable, but the fares are higher than HAL's and their ships are quite a bit smaller than the R and S class ships: 3 are under 30,000 tons and the fourth is around 43,000 -- so think Prinsendam size and smaller, at a higher price.  

 

In the US market I've thought for years that most people who've come to cruising in the 1990s and especially in the 2000s have been indoctrinated with the idea that the latest ship -- newer, bigger, with more bells and whistles -- is the greatest, and that old ships are far less desirable. The cruise industry has run with that and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. 

 

Remember that old triangle of possibility, with the three points being 1) cost, 2) itinerary, and 3) ship condition and amenities, where the takeaway is that you can't have all three at once: affordable cost, great itinerary, and excellent facilities (dining, entertainment, cabin size, etc.) aboard ship.  Well, perhaps except for those really, really great deals that come along every so often....  

[OlsSalt]

8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Regarding  Fred Olsen -- there are plenty of folks on that board complaining about the price not being good value, especially comparing accommodations between the older, smaller ships in the FO fleet versus new, bigger (and cheaper) ships now readily available for UK cruisers.  Yes, they are a standalone line and yes, they have smaller ships that appear to be profitable, but the fares are higher than HAL's and their ships are quite a bit smaller than the R and S class ships: 3 are under 30,000 tons and the fourth is around 43,000 -- so think Prinsendam size and smaller, at a higher price.  

 

In the US market I've thought for years that most people who've come to cruising in the 1990s and especially in the 2000s have been indoctrinated with the idea that the latest ship -- newer, bigger, with more bells and whistles -- is the greatest, and that old ships are far less desirable. The cruise industry has run with that and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. 

 

Remember that old triangle of possibility, with the three points being 1) cost, 2) itinerary, and 3) ship condition and amenities, where the takeaway is that you can't have all three at once: affordable cost, great itinerary, and excellent facilities (dining, entertainment, cabin size, etc.) aboard ship.  Well, perhaps except for those really, really great deals that come along every so often....  

 

How do the Fred Olsen very nice range of  dedicated single cabins stack up, price wise. FO reminds me of the old Discovery.  Plus they offer 3 for 2 and other special cabin price packages.  I think they are serving a valuable niche. The UK departures is the one draw back right now.  One ship Balmoral is 1200, the other three are closer to 800. The Boudicca looks like their world explorer. I wonder what their former ships heritage was. 

 

Update -WIKI -  Balmoral is a cruise ship owned and operated by Fred. Olsen Cruise Lines. She was built in 1988 by the Meyer Werft shipyard in Papenburg, West Germany, as Crown Odyssey for Royal Cruise Line. She has also sailed for the Norwegian Cruise Line as Norwegian Crown and Orient Lines as Crown Odyssey. In 2007–2008 she was lengthened by 30 m (98 ft) at the Blohm + Vossshipyard in Hamburg prior to entering service with her current operator

 

WIKI: Boudicca - indeed is the Prinsedam's lost sister:

 

MV Boudicca is a cruise ship owned and operated by Fred. Olsen Cruise Lines. She was built in 1973 by Wärtsilä Helsinki Shipyard, Finland as Royal Viking Sky for Nordenfjeldske Dampsibsselskap, Trondheim, which placed the ship in Royal Viking Line service.

 

Prior to entering service with her current owners, the ship has also sailed under the names Sunward (for Norwegian Cruise Line), Birka Queen (with Birka Cruises), Golden Princess (with Princess Cruises), SuperStar Capricorn (with Star Cruises), Hyundai Keumgang(with Hyundai Merchant Marine) and Grand Latino (with Viajes Iberojet (now Iberocruceros)).[7

Edited January 14, 2019 by OlsSalt

[RDC1]

17 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do the Fred Olsen very nice range of  dedicated single cabins stack up, price wise. FO reminds me of the old Discovery.  Plus they offer 3 for 2 and other special cabin price packages.  I think they are serving a valuable niche. The UK departures is the one draw back right now.  One ship Balmoral is 1200, the other three are closer to 800. The Boudicca looks like their world explorer. I wonder what their former ships heritage was. 

 

Update -WIKI -  Balmoral is a cruise ship owned and operated by Fred. Olsen Cruise Lines. She was built in 1988 by the Meyer Werft shipyard in Papenburg, West Germany, as Crown Odyssey for Royal Cruise Line. She has also sailed for the Norwegian Cruise Line as Norwegian Crown and Orient Lines as Crown Odyssey. In 2007–2008 she was lengthened by 30 m (98 ft) at the Blohm + Vossshipyard in Hamburg prior to entering service with her current operator

 

WIKI: Boudicca - indeed is the Prinsedam's lost sister:

 

MV Boudicca is a cruise ship owned and operated by Fred. Olsen Cruise Lines. She was built in 1973 by Wärtsilä Helsinki Shipyard, Finland as Royal Viking Sky for Nordenfjeldske Dampsibsselskap, Trondheim, which placed the ship in Royal Viking Line service.

 

Prior to entering service with her current owners, the ship has also sailed under the names Sunward (for Norwegian Cruise Line), Birka Queen (with Birka Cruises), Golden Princess (with Princess Cruises), SuperStar Capricorn (with Star Cruises), Hyundai Keumgang(with Hyundai Merchant Marine) and Grand Latino (with Viajes Iberojet (now Iberocruceros)).[7

Fred Olson's newest ship is over 25 years old, their oldest is 46. The four ships   No signs of them do a new build anytime soon.  They basically buy cruise ships that other fleets are retiring.  The last ship they acquired was in 2007 and it is over 30 years old.

 

CCL owned companies don't sail ships over 30 years, and few over 25.  Fred Olson operates with ships that the major lines have retired, even then their prices are creeping up.  No way they could afford a new build on their fare structure.

[OlsSalt]

25 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

Fred Olson's newest ship is over 25 years old, their oldest is 46. The four ships   No signs of them do a new build anytime soon.  They basically buy cruise ships that other fleets are retiring.  The last ship they acquired was in 2007 and it is over 30 years old.

 

CCL owned companies don't sail ships over 30 years, and few over 25.  Fred Olson operates with ships that the major lines have retired, even then their prices are creeping up.  No way they could afford a new build on their fare structure.

'

Maybe it is time for CCL and HAL to reassess that arbitrary model. Seems to be working for Fred Olsen.  Spin off the new big HAL ships to Princess and  concentrate development of the HAL brand for what it does best - smaller, traditional ships with great itineraries and a choice of  US departures.  

 

Best way to get HAL brand consistency is stop trying to be something it has no business being - a big ship competitor..

[terrydtx]

26 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Best way to get HAL brand consistency is stop trying to be something it has no business being - a big ship competitor..

In the world of huge Mega Ships, with 4000+ passenger capacities, water slides, roller coasters and wave machines, how do you consider HAL with its largest 2660 passengers ships  competing in the Big Ship Market? If you want HAL to be something it is not, bankrupt, then let it try to compete with nothing but small less than 1500 PAX ships.  Twenty years ago  2000 and 2600 passenger ships were  Mega Ships, today they are small ships by comparison.

[RDC1]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

'

Maybe it is time for CCL and HAL to reassess that arbitrary model. Seems to be working for Fred Olsen.  Spin off the new big HAL ships to Princess and  concentrate development of the HAL brand for what it does best - smaller, traditional ships with great itineraries and a choice of  US departures.  

 

Best way to get HAL brand consistency is stop trying to be something it has no business being - a big ship competitor..

It is not arbitrary.  There was a post in a different topic a few months ago by Chengkp75 (ships engineering officer) where he mentioned that once ships reach a specific age (I think is was 30 but may have been lower) maintenance costs go up significantly due to requirements for additional inspections that much be performed each year.  CCL owned lines, as well as the other major companies, retire their ships before they reach that increased cost age.

 

Get used to it the Holland ships will leave the line before 30 and probably even earlier.

[OlsSalt]

2 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

It is not arbitrary.  There was a post in a different topic a few months ago by Chengkp75 (ships engineering officer) where he mentioned that once ships reach a specific age (I think is was 30 but may have been lower) maintenance costs go up significantly due to requirements for additional inspections that much be performed each year.  CCL owned lines, as well as the other major companies, retire their ships before they reach that increased cost age.

 

Get used to it the Holland ships will leave the line before 30 and probably even earlier.

 

Makes one wonder how Fred Olsen still milks profits out of venerable Northern European-built ships even older than that - apparently they found the smaller, older ship sweet spot. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by OlsSalt

[kazu]

11 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

Get used to it the Holland ships will leave the line before 30 and probably even earlier.

 

Prinsendam hit the 30 mark last year.  She is still with the fleet (leased) until July.

 

Then, sadly she is gone.  Along with her leaving will be some regulars I suspect.  I met a lot of people who were 4 or 5* + Mariners and that was the only HAL ship they would sail.  They sailed for itinerary and experience of good service 😉 

 

And yes it is tougher to maintain these ships - her windows and other things had to be specially ordered.

[RDC1]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Makes one wonder how Fred Olsen still milks profits out of venerable Northern European-built ships even older than that - apparently they found the smaller, older ship sweet spot. 

What they found was that they can make a profit in the primarily UK market, by not having to outlay substantial amounts of capital to buy new ships. The article you quoted indicates that their complete valuation of all four of their ships is 48,691,000 pounds or about 64 million dollars.  

 

1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

Prinsendam hit the 30 mark last year.  She is still with the fleet (leased) until July.

 

Then, sadly she is gone.  Along with her leaving will be some regulars I suspect.  I met a lot of people who were 4 or 5* + Mariners and that was the only HAL ship they would sail.  They sailed for itinerary and experience of good service 😉 

 

And yes it is tougher to maintain these ships - her windows and other things had to be specially ordered.

But she was sold last year and leased back to finish up some cruises and will be gone this year.

Edited January 14, 2019 by RDC1