Two new mid size ships starting 2022

[3rdGenCunarder]

Casinos and bars generate revenue. I don't know how much because I don't "donate" in casinos. But if you look at bar prices, they make money for the ships. 

 

That said, Cunard cut its casino in half and put in some solo cabins. Those solo cabins sell out quickly. I don't know how the per person price of a solo ocean view compares to the per person price double occupancy of a double ocean view, but it's probably higher. Back on QE2, the per person cost of an inside single was equal to the per person double occupancy cost in an oceanview. So one way or another solos pay extra. On HAL, solos pay $200% of the per person double occupancy. On my recent Cunard TA it was "only" $175%. (single cabins were sold out way before I booked)

 

I sometimes get emails from river cruises saying "no single supplement" on some of their cruises. Don't see that on ocean cruises. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by 3rdGenCunarder

[philbob84]

a 75,000 ton/sub-2000 passenger design to replace the R/S/Fantasy/Vista/ Spirit and the miscellaneous costa/ P+O /Princess smaller and median ships is doable. If a platform and hull are well designed it can be very affordable to design/build/ and operate. Fincantieri has even proposed sub- 2000 passenger versions of the Mille Design (Currently NCL Leonardo / Virgin Scarlett Lady/ and MSC Seaside. The design ranges from 110 to155KT with 2700 passengers to 5200)

[mcrcruiser]

Love this thread with all the comparisons of cruise ships & cruise lines  . Viking cruise lines are pros in both  river & now ocean cruises . If we could afford the ocean cruises we would do it in a heart beat . We have done a Rhine river cruise on Avalon Waterways & loved it  for all the personal attention a smaller vessel can offer  

[mame42]

16 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

As recent posts on this thread show, there are many different things people consider when looking at a cruise. Some don't want any room below a balcony level, some don't like smaller ships because there are fewer entertainment options.  Some value itinerary more than just about anything else.  And some clearly are in search of a fairly low price tag.

 

Is it even possible to reach a consensus on what HAL cruisers (which I'm assuming those posting are) want from a smaller/medium sized ship? 

 

 

Put me in the ITINERARY column, please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[igraf]

On 1/10/2019 at 4:16 AM, terrydtx said:

Viking Ocean is also building at least 3 more of their 930 passenger ships over the next 3 years, one per year. 

 

Viking is charging US$3800 (starting price) for an 11-day Caribbean "West Indies" cruise.  We recently cruised to Mexico on the Eurodam in a balcony stateroom for $650.

 

If you are willing to pay much more then you can have a smaller ship.  Economy of scale is the reality of cruising.

 

igraf

 

 

 

[iancal]

The bottom line is that many traditional HAL cruisers want a small ship environment but are unwilling to ante up with the fare that new builds require to pass that line between red and black on the P&L.  HAL is simply not going to build smaller ships and keep the fares on those ships  stable relative to the current fare structure.   The new builds deliver what cruisers want....verandah cabins.   There will be far fewer insides and outsides compared to balcony cabins on these new builds.    It is not in the cards so it is unproductive to keep wishing for something that will not happen or moaning and groaning about why it will not happen.  For those who prefer those ships the choice in a few years will be to go with the flow or switch to a different cruise line that specializes in smaller ships.

 

Enjoy HAL's smaller ships.  They will be eased out of the fleet before too long.

[sppunk]

5 hours ago, iancal said:

The bottom line is that many traditional HAL cruisers want a small ship environment but are unwilling to ante up with the fare that new builds require to pass that line between red and black on the P&L.  HAL is simply not going to build smaller ships and keep the fares on those ships  stable relative to the current fare structure.   The new builds deliver what cruisers want....verandah cabins.   There will be far fewer insides and outsides compared to balcony cabins on these new builds.    It is not in the cards so it is unproductive to keep wishing for something that will not happen or moaning and groaning about why it will not happen.  For those who prefer those ships the choice in a few years will be to go with the flow or switch to a different cruise line that specializes in smaller ships.

 

Enjoy HAL's smaller ships.  They will be eased out of the fleet before too long.

Close thread. This sums it up perfectly. 

[OlsSalt]

13 minutes ago, sppunk said:

Close thread. This sums it up perfectly. 

 

If passengers only want verandah cabins, why is HAL still selling out their inside and oceanview? Apparently there is a market for this price point still. 

[sppunk]

15 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

If passengers only want verandah cabins, why is HAL still selling out their inside and oceanview? Apparently there is a market for this price point still. 

Well any ship will have those. But the market has spoken.

[RDC1]

6 hours ago, iancal said:

The bottom line is that many traditional HAL cruisers want a small ship environment but are unwilling to ante up with the fare that new builds require to pass that line between red and black on the P&L.  HAL is simply not going to build smaller ships and keep the fares on those ships  stable relative to the current fare structure.   The new builds deliver what cruisers want....verandah cabins.   There will be far fewer insides and outsides compared to balcony cabins on these new builds.    It is not in the cards so it is unproductive to keep wishing for something that will not happen or moaning and groaning about why it will not happen.  For those who prefer those ships the choice in a few years will be to go with the flow or switch to a different cruise line that specializes in smaller ships.

 

Enjoy HAL's smaller ships.  They will be eased out of the fleet before too long.

I would change one portion   "The new builds will deliver the more profitable per square foot verandah cabins". A fair number of people do book insides and ocean views so I would not state necessarily that verandah are only what cruisers want.  Cruise lines maximize the number of them in new builds because they can charge more.

[igraf]

19 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

I would change one portion   "The new builds will deliver the more profitable per square foot verandah cabins". A fair number of people do book insides and ocean views so I would not state necessarily that verandah are only what cruisers want.  Cruise lines maximize the number of them in new builds because they can charge more.

 

 

I disagree.  Cruise lines maximize the number of verandah cabins so they can offer them at a competitive price.  Most passengers want a balcony.  It is just a matter of cost, and the cost of a verandah  cabin is much less than before.

 

igraf

 

 

[OlsSalt]

1 hour ago, igraf said:

 

 

I disagree.  Cruise lines maximize the number of verandah cabins so they can offer them at a competitive price.  Most passengers want a balcony.  It is just a matter of cost, and the cost of a verandah  cabin is much less than before.

 

igraf

 

 

 

Let's start with the assumption there are still 15,000 potential passengers annually in the world of 7.5 billion people who do not necessarily demand a balcony, and would provide a sufficient passenger base to keep building a highly functional R class type ship.  30,000 potential passengers gets you two filled R-class type ships. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by OlsSalt

[Jimbo59]

How could HAL differentiate itself from other cruise lines? Offer itineraries with longer times in ports. Maybe offer more late departures or even overnights.

[cruisemom42]

10 hours ago, Jimbo59 said:

How could HAL differentiate itself from other cruise lines? Offer itineraries with longer times in ports. Maybe offer more late departures or even overnights.

 

Azamara has already staked out that territory -- they promote themselves as the cruise line for those who love travel and tout their long port stays and a significant number of overnights.  They launched a marketing campaign with it and still use it:  https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Azamara-Cruises-new-ads-accentuate-port-stays

 

Also, while I like this idea and it would be a fit for some ships and itineraries, it is at odds with HAL's short (compared with other lines) port stops in some places that have been repeatedly commented upon here.

[Jimbo59]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Azamara has already staked out that territory -- they promote themselves as the cruise line for those who love travel and tout their long port stays and a significant number of overnights.  They launched a marketing campaign with it and still use it:  https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Azamara-Cruises-new-ads-accentuate-port-stays

 

Also, while I like this idea and it would be a fit for some ships and itineraries, it is at odds with HAL's short (compared with other lines) port stops in some places that have been repeatedly commented upon here.

Maybe just three ports on a seven day cruise instead of four would allow for more time in each port.

[ChinaShrek]

11 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Let's start with the assumption there are still 15,000 potential passengers annually in the world of 7.5 billion people who do not necessarily demand a balcony, and would provide a sufficient passenger base to keep building a highly functional R class type ship.  30,000 potential passengers gets you two filled R-class type ships. 

Where are you getting the 15,000 passenger figure from?  Let's assume 7-night cruises since most people cannot travel for more than a week or two.  They would need about 60,000 passengers per year - a small city!

[igraf]

11 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Let's start with the assumption there are still 15,000 potential passengers annually in the world of 7.5 billion people who do not necessarily demand a balcony, and would provide a sufficient passenger base to keep building a highly functional R class type ship.  30,000 potential passengers gets you two filled R-class type ships. 

 

 

The old paradigm where a few privileged passengers get balcony cabins up on top while everyone is down below with a small window is long passe.   

 

Modern smaller ships are mostly balconies.  Regents Seven Seas and Crystal are examples of this.  They are also examples of how much it will cost to sail on a modern smaller ship. 

 

igraf

 

 

[sppunk]

26 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

Where are you getting the 15,000 passenger figure from?  Let's assume 7-night cruises since most people cannot travel for more than a week or two.  They would need about 60,000 passengers per year - a small city!

RCCL is on it! One ship, issue solved.

[kazu]

31 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

Where are you getting the 15,000 passenger figure from?  Let's assume 7-night cruises since most people cannot travel for more than a week or two.  They would need about 60,000 passengers per year - a small city!

 

Incorrect assumption.

 

The S & R class do more than 7 day cruises and are not confined to the Caribbean 😉 In fact, like the Prinsendam, it's not their main focus in the winter 😉 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

31 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

Where are you getting the 15,000 passenger figure from?  Let's assume 7-night cruises since most people cannot travel for more than a week or two.  They would need about 60,000 passengers per year - a small city!

 

I believe she's not talking about all of HAL's fleet but only the potential for keeping 1-2 of the smaller ships as a going concern.

 

I just took a look at Maasdam's itineraries (as an example for an S class ship) for approximately the next 18 months. The shortest itineraries offered are 12-14 days, and about half of the cruises are longer than that:  from 14-21 days (and every number in between) to cruises up to 28, 35, even 42 days in length.  Granted, some of these are combinations of shorter cruises, but still the basic unit of length is not shorter than 14 days in most cases.

 

Rotterdam, as an R class ship, is picking up a number of Prinsendam's former itineraries, albeit with some alterations, and has a similar variation in (longer) itineraries as listed above for Maasdam, with a very few 7-day Caribbean itineraries in the mix.

 

These are the types of itineraries and cruises OlsSalt is probably hoping for, not 7-day cruises that are already heavily competitive for the mass market lines.

 

19 minutes ago, igraf said:

 

 

The old paradigm where a few privileged passengers get balcony cabins up on top while everyone is down below with a small window is long passe.   

 

Modern smaller ships are mostly balconies.  Regents Seven Seas and Crystal are examples of this.  They are also examples of how much it will cost to sail on a modern smaller ship. 

 

igraf

 

 

 

What we are trying to establish is whether there are enough travelers out there for whom a luxury cruise like RSS or Crystal is not really feasible but who like traveling on a smaller ship to interesting destinations without the word 'luxury' being part of the equasion...

 

Personally, I travel for the itinerary and not for the ship. I am already penalized by traveling solo, so my per person cost is high. Happily, I am very willing to cruise in any level of cabin including inside that gets me where I want to go. Are there others like me?  Yes, a few. 

 

What I'm not convinced of is that HAL is the line to step forth and cater to this group. It's too different from the current model that's geared more for the Vista class ship and upward. And I still think that for the mid-smaller ship (1200-1500 pax) to be profitable would include a good-size jump in fares (WITHOUT a luxury experience).  

[3rdGenCunarder]

Cruisemomsaid:

"What I'm not convinced of is that HAL is the line to step forth and cater to this group. It's too different from the current model that's geared more for the Vista class ship and upward. And I still think that for the mid-smaller ship (1200-1500 pax) to be profitable would include a good-size jump in fares (WITHOUT a luxury experience).  "

 

(sorry, having trouble trimming a large quote to just the part I want to address)

 

This is a good point. Marketing becomes difficult when the image isn't consistent. HAL is already fragmented with ships of different sizes and onboard offerings. For those not familiar with HAL, making a booking must be confusing--which ships have a hydropool? which ships have Lincoln Center? which ships have Club Orange? why are some ships more expensive? Now HAL is doing something very different with Maasdam, but how different can it be for their marketing and management model to still work?

 

This was a problem with Cunard pre-Carnival. Their image was too fragmented. They had QE2, an ocean liner and one of the two largest ships afloat at that time (the other was the Norway), two little cruise ships (Princess and Countess), and "the Yachts of Seabourn." VERY different products with very different pricing. And they owned NAC (Sagafjord and Vistaflord). 

 

Just as Carnival scooped up HAL and saved it, they grabbed Cunard to get the prestige of QE2 and reassigned other ships so that Cunard wasn't so fragmented.

 

[iancal]

How many new builds has HAL done in the past ten years and how many builds have been announced?  How many of that total would be considered smaller ships?

 

What ships does HAL currently have on the auction block?  Has HAL announced any plans to do  a complete refit on any of their smaller ships in order to extend their life by 10/15 years or more?

 

Those answers should provide a fairly good indication as to  where HAL is headed vis a vis ship size.

Edited January 13, 2019 by iancal

[igraf]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

What we are trying to establish is whether there are enough travelers out there for whom a luxury cruise like RSS or Crystal is not really feasible but who like traveling on a smaller ship to interesting destinations without the word 'luxury' being part of the equasion...

 

Personally, I travel for the itinerary and not for the ship. I am already penalized by traveling solo, so my per person cost is high. Happily, I am very willing to cruise in any level of cabin including inside that gets me where I want to go. Are there others like me?  Yes, a few. 

 

What I'm not convinced of is that HAL is the line to step forth and cater to this group. It's too different from the current model that's geared more for the Vista class ship and upward. And I still think that for the mid-smaller ship (1200-1500 pax) to be profitable would include a good-size jump in fares (WITHOUT a luxury experience).  

 

I just went on a cruise with a group of four where I shared a room with my wife and the other two had their own cabins.  All of us had verandahs which would have been exorbitantly expensive on the older HAL ships (luxury or not), but was very affordable on the newer larger ships.  The difference between oceanview and verandah was only about $100 or so.   This is a big improvement for all cruisers.

 

igraf

 

 

[OlsSalt]

3 hours ago, ChinaShrek said:

Where are you getting the 15,000 passenger figure from?  Let's assume 7-night cruises since most people cannot travel for more than a week or two.  They would need about 60,000 passengers per year - a small city!

 

The intended smaller ship 15,000 clientele are obviously, as previously stated, for the longer cruises - that is the targeted demographic - those willing and able to take the 30 day cruises on an interesting array of more far ranging itineraries.  Less than world cruise but more than short escapes. The 7 day cruises are best left to the larger ships.

 

( Eg: 1200 passengers x 12 months a year to fill a midsize ship for 30 day cruises - specialy mid market, not mass midmarket)

 

Can HAL drum up 15,000 passengers a year out of 7.5 billion people on the planet to make a smaller mid-market ship worthwhile - that is the basic question - facts currently unavailable - opinions in copious amounts at this point. 

 

HAL today does respond to both travel choices; but will soon abandon the former (longer smaller)  for the latter (shorter bulk)  in a few more years. Yes, luxury/premium ships are picking up the slack, but the plea is for a mid-market, fewer frills ship that HAL has been well serving and can claim as its special niche.

Edited January 13, 2019 by OlsSalt

[iancal]

HAL has already responded to this question.  They responded some years ago.

 

They voted with their money.  The answer lies in where HAL has made financial investments and financial commitments.

 

As the old saying does...why keep flogging a dead horse.  This horse expired a long time ago.

Edited January 13, 2019 by iancal