Two new mid size ships starting 2022

[Sir PMP]

Oceania is bringing in 2 new ships, the Allure class, with 1200 passengers, Hal please take note...

[mcrcruiser]

Unfortunately HAL owned by Carnival corp  is not in the business of building that small a ship any longer .  We be fortunate in the future to keep the Osterdam   size vessel .The main line cruise industry is building those super large ships because they bring in more profits to the corporations

 

 We do not like it ;but ,it is what it is  & the only way in the future is to go to the luxury lines for the smaller vessels 

[OlsSalt]

HAL has a nice middle of the road product on their current smaller ships - R and S class ships. We did not like a lot of the frou frou extras and pretensions on the smaller luxury brand Crystal and were so happy to find HAL where we got what we liked and the very good smaller ship itineraries too. 

 

Should HAL be asked to compete directly only with the luxury brand smaller ships or are their cost benefits continuing to offer smaller ships  but not at the frou frou luxury standards of the more premium brands?

 

I don't know enough about allocation of onboard expenses to know how this might pencil out - is the Maasdam  InDept a test case to run a more bare bones operation - more emphasis on enrichment than onboard dazzle? Does it make sense to build new ships for this kind of a more "down scale"  market? Sea going bus trips, really. 

 

I hope the era of smaller ship, with less than premium on board luxury, is not over for a long long time. Just a nice pedestrian, itinerary oriented smaller ship - a Ford  compact; not a Lexus sedan. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by OlsSalt

[3rdGenCunarder]

17 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

HAL has a nice middle of the road product on their current smaller ships - R and S class ships. We did not like a lot of the frou frou extras and pretensions on the smaller luxury brand Crystal and were so happy to find HAL where we got what we liked and the very good smaller ship itineraries too. 

 

Should HAL be asked to compete directly only with the luxury brand smaller ships or are their cost benefits continuing to offer smaller ships  but not at the frou frou luxury standards of the more premium brands?

 

I don't know enough about allocation of onboard expenses to know how this might pencil out - is the Maasdam  InDept a test case to run a more bare bones operation - more emphasis on enrichment than onboard dazzle? Does it make sense to build new ships for this kind of a more "down scale"  market? Sea going bus trips, really. 

 

I hope the era of smaller ship, with less than premium on board luxury, is not over for a long long time. Just a nice pedestrian, itinerary oriented smaller ship - a Ford  compact; not a Lexus sedan. 

 

I'm thinking about a Maasdam in-depth while HAL still has a small enough ship to do that kind of itinerary. I think the future for small ship cruising is going to be luxury. HAL has shed smaller ships and built bigger ones. And Ford is no longer making compacts...

[kazu]

I don’t understand why everyone is calling Oceania luxury, it’s NOT at all.

 

Classified as premium but that is debatable.  It depends on the ship and the week.  The Prinsendam crew could have taught my O crew a few things.

 

But their cabins are very nice 😉 

 

Mr. Ashford has been on the Prinsendam to see what the attraction is.  Time will tell but we all have choices.  I’ll choose wisely and based on my last O cruise and the reply from their head office, it is NOT an option for us 😉 

 

Would I like HAL to do a new mid size/small ship?  YES.  Will it happen under the current management?  I think not. 😞. 

[Jammu2]

Cool. Thanks for the heads up. Though their recent price increases have put them out of our class for now.

[Himself]

I think HAL would be wise to go with the smaller ships.  I love thr "R" Class and the signature Class ships.  I wish they would build two more Signature Class ships rather then monster ships like the Koningsdam.

[OlsSalt]

21 minutes ago, Himself said:

I think HAL would be wise to go with the smaller ships.  I love thr "R" Class and the signature Class ships.  I wish they would build two more Signature Class ships rather then monster ships like the Koningsdam.

 

R class is an excellent choice and can still offer the great unique itineraries. That would be HAL's strongest competition to Viking etc and all the smaller upscale ships - my "Ford compact". Have loved them all - they were chosen as HAL flagships for a reason and are their bestowed signature ships in the cruise ship world. 

 

Chasing the larger ships offers nothing unique for the established HAL brand- just bulk but no distinctive charms of what put HAL ships on the map in the first place.

Edited January 10, 2019 by OlsSalt

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, Himself said:

I think HAL would be wise to go with the smaller ships.  I love thr "R" Class and the signature Class ships.  I wish they would build two more Signature Class ships rather then monster ships like the Koningsdam.

To many  new cruisers the  marketing attraction are the many amenities that only larger ships can achieve just purely do to size .  The cruise lines are using their best advertising /marketing to attract people to the floating resort amenities  vs the ports & are doing this to get people to spend more on board than on shore .

 

 The days of the R & S class HAL cruise ships are nearer to their end than their beginning  . Not my say ;but ,the powers to be at the corporate think tank 

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

 

R class is an excellent choice and can still offer the great unique itineraries. That would be HAL's strongest competition to Viking etc and all the smaller upscale ships - my "Ford compact". Have loved them all - they were chosen as HAL flagships for a reason and are their bestowed signature ships in the cruise ship world. 

 

Chasing the larger ships offers nothing unique for the established HAL brand- just bulk but no distinctive charms of what put HAL ships on the map in the first place.

Unfortunately this is not the thinking of Carnival corporation  . Yes , we loved the smaller ships even Celebrity did away with the smaller vessel like Mercury  & that class of ship only to build the  Millenium  91,000 ton class & then the Soltice  class at 122000 tons . Princess also is getting larger & larger ships .

 

 In the near  future we see 2 choices the mass main line cruise industry & the luxury smaller cruise line industry . That will be the choice . Those who can't afford the luxury lines will have to go to the main line ships  or not cruise  .We all have choices in travel . Perhaps people will substitute all inclusive  or just plain land travel whether here in the USA or abroad 

[RDC1]

25 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

To many  new cruisers the  marketing attraction are the many amenities that only larger ships can achieve just purely do to size .  The cruise lines are using their best advertising /marketing to attract people to the floating resort amenities  vs the ports & are doing this to get people to spend more on board than on shore .

 

 The days of the R & S class HAL cruise ships are nearer to their end than their beginning  . Not my say ;but ,the powers to be at the corporate think tank 

The size dramatically impacts the price point.  Larger ships are economically more efficient.  So they could continue with smaller ships, but their price point would need to be competitive with other lines running those size ships.  A price point that many HAL cruisers have indicated in posts on CC as being out of reach.

 

I suspect that HAL will still have a lower average ship size 10 years from now than the other mass market lines, but more like just under 2500 vs the under 2000 that it has now.

Edited January 10, 2019 by RDC1

[RDC1]

19 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Unfortunately this is not the thinking of Carnival corporation  . Yes , we loved the smaller ships even Celebrity did away with the smaller vessel like Mercury  & that class of ship only to build the  Millenium  91,000 ton class & then the Soltice  class at 122000 tons . Princess also is getting larger & larger ships .

 

 In the near  future we see 2 choices the mass main line cruise industry & the luxury smaller cruise line industry . That will be the choice . Those who can't afford the luxury lines will have to go to the main line ships  or not cruise  .We all have choices in travel . Perhaps people will substitute all inclusive  or just plain land travel whether here in the USA or abroad 

I would expect there still to be 3 main levels, for example

 

Mass market   Royal, Carnival, Celebrity, Princess, HAL, MSC, NCL, P&O

 

Premium   Viking, Oceania, Azamara, maybe Cunard

 

Luxury   Regent, Crystal, Seaborn, Silversea

[OlsSalt]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

Unfortunately this is not the thinking of Carnival corporation  . Yes , we loved the smaller ships even Celebrity did away with the smaller vessel like Mercury  & that class of ship only to build the  Millenium  91,000 ton class & then the Soltice  class at 122000 tons . Princess also is getting larger & larger ships .

 

 In the near  future we see 2 choices the mass main line cruise industry & the luxury smaller cruise line industry . That will be the choice . Those who can't afford the luxury lines will have to go to the main line ships  or not cruise  .We all have choices in travel . Perhaps people will substitute all inclusive  or just plain land travel whether here in the USA or abroad 

 

With all due respect, I feel you are badly misjudging the cruise market. 

[OlsSalt]

1 hour ago, RDC1 said:

I would expect there still to be 3 main levels, for example

 

Mass market   Royal, Carnival, Celebrity, Princess, HAL, MSC, NCL, P&O

 

Premium   Viking, Oceania, Azamara, maybe Cunard

 

Luxury   Regent, Crystal, Seaborn, Silversea

 

#4 - smaller, functional European-style, less frills travel/destination ships. The world is still made up of small ports and plenty of  those who travel for enrichment.  

 

Small ships - 12 months - 1200- 1500 passengers x 12 equals max 31,000 passengers a year to keep one R class ships afloat for unique extended 30 day voyages.

 

In a world fast approaching 8 billion people, if HAL can't find 31,000 unique passengers per ship for a fleet of smaller ships and unique itineraries at mid-market prices, the formerly global cruise line HAL does deserve to go out of business.

 

As a mid-market large, mass cruise line, it is not a niche; it is bottom-feeding by default. Time to get a new vision for HAL before a century of special branding is lost forever due to stale, pedantic management. 

 

And guaranteed, they are not going to find those 31,000 passengers on their new website.  If anything, they are losing those 31,000 passengers with their new website. Mr Kruse, are you asleep at the helm?

Edited January 10, 2019 by OlsSalt

[mcrcruiser]

41 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

With all due respect, I feel you are badly misjudging the cruise market. 

That is fine you have your opinion & I have my opinion . This is not a contest ,we are  just sharing opinions on a opinion thread 

[OlsSalt]

26 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

That is fine you have your opinion & I have my opinion . This is not a contest ,we are  just sharing opinions on a opinion thread 

 

What are the barriers to HAL (or a successor old HAL like company)  finding 13,000 mid-market passengers per smaller mid-market cruise ships among the 7 plus billion people now on the planet? 

 

Costs of operation?

Tight labor markets?

Industry politics?

Ports strong-arming smaller ships out of business?

Seattle mismanagement?

A schizophrenic website and marketing campaign?

Too much inconsistency across the brand resulting in passenger confusion, disappointment and loss of return business?

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by OlsSalt

[mcrcruiser]

Just now, OlsSalt said:

 

What are the barriers to HAL (or a successor company)  finding 13,000 mid-market passengers per smaller mid-market cruise ships among the 7 plus billion people now on the planet? 

 HAL is a divison of Carnival corporation . The Corporation culture & business plan will set the agenda  for the future of their cruise ship divisons & imo it is not small ships  based on the  main lines cruise industry trends ,of todays industry

[OlsSalt]

5 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

 HAL is a divison of Carnival corporation . The Corporation culture & business plan will set the agenda  for the future of their cruise ship divisons & imo it is not small ships  based on the  main lines cruise industry trends ,of todays industry

 

Why haven't they collapsed all their brands into a generic one size fits all instead of trying to offer something different to various marketing and customer demographics? That would be the biggest cost saver of all - Mega fun ships for everyone. Same decor, ship layouts, itineraries, food, and uniforms.  The Seattle Ships ---says it all.  Or is that the Florida Fun Ships - not sure where CCL is headquartered. 

Edited January 10, 2019 by OlsSalt

[ski ww]

Some interesting ideas & thoughts. Lots to think about.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I read that yesterday about Oceania building 2 smaller ships -- 1200 passengers.  

 

Sure I would love to see HAL build a couple of small ships but I don't see it happening -- sad.  We had quite a few cruises on the Ryndam.  

[terrydtx]

9 hours ago, Himself said:

I think HAL would be wise to go with the smaller ships.  I love thr "R" Class and the signature Class ships.  I wish they would build two more Signature Class ships rather then monster ships like the Koningsdam.

I would hardly call the Kdam and N Statendam "monster ships" with 2600 passengers compared to the real monsters that are being built and sailed by Royal, MSC, NCL Carnival, Princess and even Celebrity, that have 3600 to almost 6000 passenger capacities. I think HAL will continue to be considered a smaller ship cruise line, smaller just has a newer definition in todays cruise market. I wish that HAL had built more than the  Signature class ships as I think around 2000 passengers on a cruise ship is just right for my taste.

[terrydtx]

16 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

Oceania is bringing in 2 new ships, the Allure class, with 1200 passengers, Hal please take note...

Viking Ocean is also building at least 3 more of their 930 passenger ships over the next 3 years, one per year. 

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

We will have to wait and see.

[cruisemom42]

Do I wish HAL would build smaller ships?  You bet.  Do I think it is likely to happen?  No -- and it is not just a matter of finding people to fill the berths. In today's world most corporate decisions are driven by potential return on investment/profitability.  I'm pretty sure the leadership of Carnival believes that building larger ships is a better economic proposition for a mass market line that has to compete with other mass market lines.

 

(BTW, I don't think Carnival overall is opposed to smaller ships, as someone stated above -- after all, they also own Seabourn, whose ships range from 32,000 to 40,000 tons.  But they don't see them as being economically feasible for their mass market lines.)

 

I'm pretty sure that:

• New builds are increasingly expensive, and smaller ships are more expensive per linear foot (or square meter, or however they measure it) than larger ones due to economies of scale.
• Smaller ships cost more per passenger to operate, also due to economies of scale (fixed costs;  spread across fewer passengers per sailing). As a top Princess officer once said to me "The bigger ships in the fleet subsidize the smaller ones -- they don't pull their own weight."  (Since then, Princess has shed two of those smaller ships....)
• Thus, fares on smaller ships would have to be high enough to compensate for both of these issues in order to ensure profitability and a good ROI, as demanded by shareholders.  I suspect such fares would not sit well with a mass market audience where one already hears grumbling on a regular basis about the higher per diem rates for the smaller ship, e.g., Prinsendam.

HAL might be able to make more of a case to retain their existing smaller ships, if they think they have a niche audience for them. As has been pointed out here by some who are in a position to know, older ships can often maintain seaworthiness for quite a long period of time. But HAL would also have to invest enough to make these ships a going proposition. It is one thing to market them as more of an 'expedition' line with fewer frills. But at the same time they would also need to ensure RELIABLE and FUNCTIONAL plumbing, HVAC, and other systems. 

 

[iancal]

Carnival Corp operates just over 100 cruise ships.  Various brand-9 or 10 as far as I can recall.  From Carnival through to Seabourn.  

 

They have been reasonably successful.  I suspect that they know what they are doing when it comes to the cruise ship market.  I also suspect that they have far more insight into the industry and the industry trends than any poster on this site.

 

Many people do not like change and some cannot accept some of the new economics.  Keep this in mind....HAL was bankrupt when Carnival picked it up.  HAL could not get 10 cents worth of credit on the market let alone financing a new bulild or a revitalized fleet.  So at the very least HAL boosters have had an extra 20 years of the brand they way the liked it that they probably would not have had if Carnival had not purchased HAL.  HAL was, at that time, on its way to disappearing into cruise ship history.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by iancal