Should Celebrity be worried about about Virgin Cruises?

[CRZR58]

21 hours ago, Static events said:

 

Well a cruise on Viking or Windstar looks mighty boring...

As opposed to the it's 10 PM, most folks are in bed vibe on Celebrity?

 

We've been on Windstar and loved it. Food and service are leagues above Celebrity. Small ships mean going places that the big ones can't. Embarkation/Debarkation and getting on/off the ship in ports is a breeze. Even if you need to tender, the wait time is only a couple of minutes. In small ports, you might be the only ship there so everything isn't crowded on land. The beach party on a private beach that only shipboard folks can even get to is a highlight.

 

Downsides for some would be no off off off Broadway style shows or sidewalk sales of cheap crap no one needs and a very small pool (Can use the water toys off the back of the ship in port which makes up for some of that). Other than that, there is about as much to do on board as on a Celebrity boat.

[CardRock]

Maybe I am wrong , but...When I see the marketing for Virgin, I picture Fyre Festival at sea...Not that I think it will be a disaster like the festival, but if you watched either of the documentaries, you ended up not feeling all that bad for the spoiled, entitled patrons who got swindled...and that is who I feel Virgin is targeting!

[Bo1953]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:51 PM, twodjs said:

But that was before they started marketing it big time! 100 maybe irrelevant - but 400 or 500 on a future cruise without the additional kid spaces to deal with them - VERY relevant. Remember that adults had to pay for each kid on past cruises -  which helped to limit the numbers. 

I believe that your thinking of 400 or 500 children on any X sailing is preposterous, as well, there are no real provisions for X to accommodate that many children with the current cabin configurations available. That is, unless the children are under the age of four(4), again I doubt that many parents on any one (1) sailing will invade X.

 

Kids club could not handle that many either...

 

bon voyage

[Bo1953]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:51 PM, twodjs said:

But that was before they started marketing it big time! 100 maybe irrelevant - but 400 or 500 on a future cruise without the additional kid spaces to deal with them - VERY relevant. Remember that adults had to pay for each kid on past cruises -  which helped to limit the numbers. 

I need to add, that I do respect your opinions and desires about the topic, as it is YOUR vacation $$$ and I have no desire or power to tell you how and where you need to spend them, just to be clearer.

 

Thank you for your input regardless.

 

bon voyage

[Mynki]

On 4/7/2019 at 4:09 PM, villauk said:

 

Now that is pushing it 😆.

 

 

Hmmmmmmmm Both are massively unappealing to me!  :)

I've been looking at sailings failing for 2020 and 2021 recently. I've seen itinerary's for Edge and Apex but these are problematic . The infinite verandahs are a deal breaker for us. I enjoy spending time outside on my balcony and I can only see these as ocean view rooms with a window that opens. They just don't appeal at all. I know some like them. But they don't work for me. 

 

[villauk]

24 minutes ago, Mynki said:

 

 

Hmmmmmmmm Both are massively unappealing to me!  🙂

I've been looking at sailings failing for 2020 and 2021 recently. I've seen itinerary's for Edge and Apex but these are problematic . The infinite verandahs are a deal breaker for us. I enjoy spending time outside on my balcony and I can only see these as ocean view rooms with a window that opens. They just don't appeal at all. I know some like them. But they don't work for me. 

 

 

 

Same for us. If I pay for a balcony, I want a proper one 😉.

[printingchick]

On 4/6/2019 at 6:18 PM, AdGuyMG said:

NO.

 

Come next spring, Celebrity will have 12 ships and about 28,000 berths available each week.

 

Virgin will have 1 ship and about 2700 berths.

 

If Celebrity cancelled all future ship builds and Virgin added 1 new ship every 18 months it would take about 17 years to make a definitive apples for apples comparison.

 

And currently, all their itineraries are five day voyages - not even to particularly interesting places. To the person who said the prices were high, I noticed when I looked them up that they price per cabin, not per person, so that does make a difference. At this point, I don't see any itineraries I'd be interested in, but I wouldn't necessarily count them out.

[Static events]

On 4/8/2019 at 4:54 PM, CardRock said:

Maybe I am wrong , but...When I see the marketing for Virgin, I picture Fyre Festival at sea...Not that I think it will be a disaster like the festival, but if you watched either of the documentaries, you ended up not feeling all that bad for the spoiled, entitled patrons who got swindled...and that is who I feel Virgin is targeting!

 

LOL 😂 

 

 I totally agree 

[alexsarasota]

I would like to make a few comments: 1) We are elite on Celebrity usually in aqua class and the last few cruises took advantage of the perks in Sky Suites, 2) Last Jan. did a Viking Cuba cruise in a Penthouse Veranda. It was a terrific experience...free WiFi, all restaurants/no upcharge, free excursion in the ports (fine for us), bought a $20/day drink package in addition to the free beer and wine at lunch and dinner (we enjoy our cocktails before and after dinner), 3) We have reserved a sky suite with perks (drink package, free WiFi, etc.) on the Edge next December, 4) We are looking forward to the Edge experience but will be seriously comparing the Edge experience with our previous Viking experience. Hopefully will enjoy the Edge experience as we did the Viking experience. 

[alexsarasota]

OMG lol...I should have looked closer...I thought it was Viking not Virgin we were discussing. Eyes are being checked tomorrow. 

[Alsmez]

I don't know if Celebrity should be worried, per se, but I do know that cruisers like us (early-mid 40s, no kids) will definitely be looking at what Virgin has to offer. Their itineraries don't excite me right now but I do like their dining and entertainment options, etc. We like Celebrity and are looking forward to our first cruise on the Summit in a few weeks, but we aren't in love with some of the changes we've heard might be in the works for Celebrity in general. If they shift their focus permanently toward more family-friendly marketing, that would be a reason for us to explore other options, including Virgin (and Viking!).

[Stateroom_Sailor]

Someone should start a Virgin vs Viking Thread.  😀

[Baron Barracuda]

27 minutes ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

Someone should start a Virgin vs Viking Thread.  😀

dw who is extremely thrifty believes VO is more than worth the higher price.  Regular cabins larger than X suites plus all those inclusions.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

 Scarlet lady cost per Berth is $215,000

Apex cost per Berth is $302,000

 

what is Scarlet Lady missing to make that large of difference in cost ? 

 

[mnocket]

4 hours ago, Airbalancer said:

 Scarlet lady cost per Berth is $215,000

Apex cost per Berth is $302,000

 

what is Scarlet Lady missing to make that large of difference in cost ? 

 

 

What an interesting table. Could you post the link?

 

As is often the case with statistics, you can interpret the data to support all kinds of arguments. It would take a deep dive into the underlying numbers (which only the cruise lines have) to make meaningful comparisons.  Nonetheless, you raise an interesting point...... Why is Scarlet Lady's cost low and why is Apex's cost high?  Is (as you've suggested) Scarlet Lady missing costly features that Apex includes, or is there a fundamental cost difference between the Scarlet Lady ship design and the Apex ship design, or ?????

 

What I would like to see is the historical data for Celebrity's S-class ships.  Is the cost per berth significantly higher for Edge/Apex than it was for Reflection/Silhouette?  If so, we may not see Edge/Apex prices decline in the future as many anticipate.  Then again, cost per berth may not factor into pricing as much as operating costs do. 

[Ex-Airbalancer]

5 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

What an interesting table. Could you post the link?

 

As is often the case with statistics, you can interpret the data to support all kinds of arguments. It would take a deep dive into the underlying numbers (which only the cruise lines have) to make meaningful comparisons.  Nonetheless, you raise an interesting point...... Why is Scarlet Lady's cost low and why is Apex's cost high?  Is (as you've suggested) Scarlet Lady missing costly features that Apex includes, or is there a fundamental cost difference between the Scarlet Lady ship design and the Apex ship design, or ?????

 

What I would like to see is the historical data for Celebrity's S-class ships.  Is the cost per berth significantly higher for Edge/Apex than it was for Reflection/Silhouette?  If so, we may not see Edge/Apex prices decline in the future as many anticipate.  Then again, cost per berth may not factor into pricing as much as operating costs do. 

http://seatrade.ubm-info.com/k/Ubm/seatrade_cruise_orderbook 

fill in the form and you can get it 

could Celebrity buying more expensive fixtures, or doesn't Celebrity have more back up system 

Apex is more expensive than  oasis class by almost $50,000 a berth 

 

 

[mnocket]

13 minutes ago, Airbalancer said:

http://seatrade.ubm-info.com/k/Ubm/seatrade_cruise_orderbook 

fill in the form and you can get it 

could Celebrity buying more expensive fixtures, or doesn't Celebrity have more back up system 

Apex is more expensive than  oasis class by almost $50,000 a berth 

 

 

 

Bummer.  There is no data in the table prior to 2019.  Seems to be forward looking only.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

some people are never happy 😃

$750,000,000( cost of Reflection) ÷3,046( passengers) =$246,224.55

[mnocket]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

some people are never happy 😃

$750,000,000( cost of Reflection) ÷3,046( passengers) =$246,224.55

 

Still not happy😉

 

The table is cost per lower berth not passenger capacity.  It seems lower berth is the number of beds which would exclude the drop down bunks.  I'm guessing most cabins count as 2 berths since the beds can be arranged as 2 twins or 1 king.  On the other hand there are 1,523 cabins on Reflection.  If we count 2 berths per cabin we get your 3046 passenger capacity. Good, but again confusing since the passenger capacity should be higher given the option to sleep more than 2 passengers in many cabins.  UNLESS...  when cruise lines state passenger capacity, they really mean lower berths.  This, of course, would mean that ships actually hold more (perhaps significantly more) passengers than we are lead to believe.

 

Now I don't know if I should be happy or not🙄

 

EDIT:  OK a little more research and I've found that indeed 

passenger capacity = lower berths

 

Hence, the cruise line stated passenger capacity is not the maximum passenger capacity.  Seems our ships do indeed sail with even more people on board than we think.  Maximum passenger capacity is constrained by life boat capacity.  Maximum capacity is not readily available to the public.

 

So, bottom line, your figure is correct. ☺️

Edited April 12, 2019 by mnocket

[Ex-Airbalancer]

Stop worrying about every little detail

and be happy that you can even take a cruise 😃

 

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Airbalancer

[Hlitner]

Should X worry about Virgin?  We do not think it is an issue for the near future as Virgin is going to be a small player (at least for the next few years) and is currently focusing on 7 day cruises.  However, we do think that MSC and Oceania are already creating a small problem for X.  We know quite a few frequent X cruisers who have abandoned X for Oceania.  As to MSC, we booked a 21 day MSC cruise (in their upscale Yacht Club) last year....instead of our usual X cruise.  We enjoyed our MSC experience so much that we have booked 2 future MSC cruises which would have previously been X cruises.  That is about 60 days of cruising that previously would have been Celebrity bookings...and we are just one couple (Elite Plus with X).    We made this change (which only effect a single 2-3 week cruise we take every year) because we had become increasingly disenchanted with the cut-backs in quality we had experienced on Celebrity...coupled with their price increases.  On our MSC cruises (in their yacht club) we get a lot more for our money.

 

Hank

[mnocket]

2 minutes ago, Airbalancer said:

Stop worrying about every little detail

and be happy that you can even take a cruise 😃

 

 

 

lol

 

Hey, I'm an engineer.  I like numbers to make sense.  Anyway,   I did some more research and actually posted an edit at the same time you posted this.  Numbers now make sense.  Order has been restored to the world.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

2 minutes ago, mnocket said:

 

lol

 

Hey, I'm an engineer.  I like numbers to make sense.  Anyway,   I did some more research and actually posted an edit at the same time you posted this.  Numbers now make sense.  Order has been restored to the world.

Our son is an aerospace engineer, I have had to send that video a lot to him over the years, 

he is pretty chilled now 😉

[mnocket]

1 minute ago, Airbalancer said:

Our son is an aerospace engineer, I have had to send that video a lot to him over the years, 

he is pretty chilled now 😉

 

Hit the nail on the head.  20 years in aerospace then 7 in winery.  Don't ask how I made that transition.  Winery was MUCH more stressful for an engineer's mind.

[Baron Barracuda]

2 hours ago, mnocket said:

 

Maximum capacity is not readily available to the public.

 

 

Sure it is.   Per Wikipedia max capacity for Reflection is 3609