Ruby Princess arrival yesterday IMPORTANT

[HappyInVan]

12 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

Your government agrees that asymptomatic transmission of COVID-19 is occurring.

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/assumptions.html#a1

 

 

 

They're looking at the same data as WHO.

 

"Asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission of COVID-19 is occurring; however, it remains unclear if it is a major driver of transmission."

 

The real concern is pre-symptomatic cases where virus shedding is relatively small...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_shedding

 

But, in a home environment (hugs and kisses over several days), the small amount is enough.

 

 

[Aus Traveller]

48 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

You have up to 1,000 more passengers on the Ruby than Diamond so more people confined to a ship the same size.

Sorry 🙂 but the numbers were very similar for both ships. At full capacity the Diamond carries 2,670 passengers, and the Ruby 3,080, but the Ruby had 2,700 passengers on the last cruise.

[caribill]

6 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

So on the Diamond, it took 15 days for 700 passengers to be infected. On the Ruby, it took 11 days to infect 700 people. As someone said, maybe the average age of passengers on the NZ cruise on the Ruby, was older than on the Diamond.

 

Age has nothing to do with catching the virus.

 

However older people who catch it are more likely to have symptoms that require hospitalization and then have worse outcomes if hospitalized.

[Pushka]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

 

Age has nothing to do with catching the virus.

 

However older people who catch it are more likely to have symptoms that require hospitalization and then have worse outcomes if hospitalized.

I think the age comment was maybe more an explanation of my question which was why the Covid impact for these cruisers was so much more significant and fatal than any other cruise. 

[Roberto256]

Is there any plan for completing the onboard investigation, and allowing Ruby to sail?

 

[Aus Traveller]

45 minutes ago, Roberto256 said:

Is there any plan for completing the onboard investigation, and allowing Ruby to sail?

 

The latest comment from the Police is that they expect the investigation to take three months. If they say that, I would expect longer. They say they want to interview every crew member and every passenger. I don't know what the ordinary crew members and the passengers can add about the procedure to clear the ship to dock and allow passengers to disembark.

[Pushka]

4 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

The latest comment from the Police is that they expect the investigation to take three months. If they say that, I would expect longer. They say they want to interview every crew member and every passenger. I don't know what the ordinary crew members and the passengers can add about the procedure to clear the ship to dock and allow passengers to disembark.

I think the people whom my sister knows who was on this cruise may have comments about the processes involved with embarkation. The start of the cruise. 

[Roberto256]

22 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

The latest comment from the Police is that they expect the investigation to take three months. If they say that, I would expect longer. They say they want to interview every crew member and every passenger. I don't know what the ordinary crew members and the passengers can add about the procedure to clear the ship to dock and allow passengers to disembark.

 

They sent a survey to every crew member, saying under the circumstances it wasn't possible to interview each.

 

Maybe they will follow up with particular crew members whose answers piqued their interest.

 

[Aus Traveller]

18 minutes ago, Pushka said:

I think the people whom my sister knows who was on this cruise may have comments about the processes involved with embarkation. The start of the cruise. 

It was reported that the passengers had to wait to board the ship on the 8th March. There were photos of them lined up until fairly late in the afternoon until NSW Health gave clearance for them to board. It was reported that the Health Department did testing on swabs from passengers on the previous cruise, but all were negative for COVID. During those hours, the crew on the ship would have been doing what they call "deep cleaning" - cleaning and cleaning and cleaning again.

[Aus Traveller]

1 minute ago, Roberto256 said:

 

They sent a survey to every crew member, saying under the circumstances it wasn't possible to interview each.

 

Maybe they will follow up with particular crew members whose answers piqued their interest.

 

Selective interviewing!! It will probably be the same with the 2,700 passengers - just interview those who complain about the ship and the organisation on board.

 

I think it would be relevant to interview all the medical staff and all the officers on the Bridge. Other than that, I can't see what members of the Housekeeping Department, or the Passenger Services Desk staff could add to things.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

  It will be very interesting to see whether individual crew members and individual passengers were directed on what to say to government officials or port authorities.  

[npcl]

7 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

Selective interviewing!! It will probably be the same with the 2,700 passengers - just interview those who complain about the ship and the organisation on board.

 

I think it would be relevant to interview all the medical staff and all the officers on the Bridge. Other than that, I can't see what members of the Housekeeping Department, or the Passenger Services Desk staff could add to things.

I suspect the questions will be along the lines of 1. were you ill  2. did you report it to the medical center 3. Do you have any information about reports of number of sick on board.

 

I would expect that the intent is to see 1. If the ship under stated the degree of illness on board, by investigating the records, 2. determining if the records were accurate by making sure any passengers/crew that reported to medical were captured in the records.

[Pushka]

4 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

  It will be very interesting to see whether individual crew members and individual passengers were directed on what to say to government officials or port authorities.  

I understand from this couple they will say exactly what their own impressions and thoughts are about the situation and will not be directed by anyone trying to influence them. They are a professional couple in their early sixties. One works in the medical area. 

[Aus Traveller]

7 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

  It will be very interesting to see whether individual crew members and individual passengers were directed on what to say to government officials or port authorities.  

I very much doubt that crew or individual passengers would say just what government officials or port authorities directed them to. However from comments and interviews with some passengers, I think some of them must have been living under a rock - claiming they didn't know about the risk of COVID, or that they weren't given information on the ship. One Canadian woman who has claimed they weren't "told", said they were just "given a sheet of paper" on the ship. Princess phoned the couple after they returned home (it was now known COVID was on board) then went them an email. NSW Health has also contacted overseas passengers, but some people said they just deleted the email.

 

They are most likely correct if they say that on the ship they were not told exactly how many people had flu-like symptoms or that swabs were sent for testing when the ship was in Wellington. They also would not have been told how many people had flu-like symptoms (no COVID) on the previous cruise, although when boarding was delayed around five hours until clearance was given by NSW Health (they were told that), they should have realised there was illness on that previous cruise.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Aus Traveller

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

    That's one part of what a comprehensive investigation will determine - did Princess try to coerce or pressure anyone into misrepresenting the truth. It's why investigators indeed should be reaching out to every individual who was onboard.

[Aus Traveller]

NSW Police now estimate that the Inquiry into the Ruby Princess incident will take at least six months. The NSW Premier is setting up an independent inquiry.

 

The Police still seem to be focusing on the original source of the infection, claiming it is "most likely someone working in the kitchen." The crew live in very close quarters, small tables in their dining room, partying in the crew bar etc. With an infection rate TODAY among the crew of 6.25% (66 out of 1,056), and the infection rate of 27.7% at least among the passengers (700+ out of 2,547) I feel it is obvious that the infection started with one or more passengers. It is relevant that when the passengers left the ship they dispersed and didn't pass the infection on to any other passengers, whereas the crew have remained in close contact with each other.

 

When this cruise left Sydney, there were very few cases of COVID in Australia, although there were some cases among young backpackers in the eastern beach suburbs of Sydney. However, 935 people flew from North America and Europe (mainly UK) where the virus was present.

 

However, I think it is irrelevant where the infection came from because it's highly unlikely the person knew they had the virus. The only reason I can see for the Police investigation to focus on a crew member as the source of the infection, is to deflect attention from the mishandling of this matter by government departments. Blame the Big Foreign Company!! 

[Aus Traveller]

8 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

    That's one part of what a comprehensive investigation will determine - did Princess try to coerce or pressure anyone into misrepresenting the truth. It's why investigators indeed should be reaching out to every individual who was onboard.

I could see that the company could put pressure on an employee, but if that fact came out, it would be even worse than if no pressure was applied. The Police investigation will look at emails and written evidence as well as the 'black box' that records events on the Bridge. These can't be altered later.

 

I can't see any passengers being influenced by the company in what they say.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

Well, that's what a full-scale will examine - what happened and what didn't. The final report will make interesting reading 

[Aus Traveller]

It seems that the theory of 'infection from the kitchen' has another hurdle to overcome. According to the report referenced below, you could become infected with COVID from your food if an infected person sneezes over it, you touch the infected food with your hands, then put your infected hands in your mouth or nose. That would be unlikely. 

 

https://paloaltoonline.com/blogs/p/2020/03/21/food-safety-and-coronavirus-a-comprehensive-guide

[Pushka]

I agree that most likely the infection came from someone newly arrived into Australia given the low rate of infection here. And likely they had no idea they had the virus. And there was no way of testing for it if they were not yet symptomatic unless everyone did the swab test. 
 

But this fact was known many weeks previously. And that being the case, that it simply can't be detected in the first day (s) of infection, means that at that point, Cruiselines needed to have closed down operations. That was the lesson from Diamond Princess and that lesson was not learnt. 
 

As an aside our neighbours brother had Covid. He got caught up in Adelaides baggage handlers issue at the airport. He is in his late 30's. He was very unwell. Temps around 40C. Didn't go to hospital but his friend needed to. He didn't get sore throat, just a headache and very mild dry cough. Fever. His symptoms are now gone and he will be released from his quarantine this week. Neighbour was tested yesterday but she feels fine. Results in later tomorrow. 

[Roberto256]

7 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

The Police still seem to be focusing on the original source of the infection, claiming it is "most likely someone working in the kitchen." The crew live in very close quarters, small tables in their dining room, partying in the crew bar etc. With an infection rate TODAY among the crew of 6.25% (66 out of 1,056), and the infection rate of 27.7% at least among the passengers (700+ out of 2,547) I feel it is obvious that the infection started with one or more passengers. It is relevant that when the passengers left the ship they dispersed and didn't pass the infection on to any other passengers, whereas the crew have remained in close contact with each other.

 

Two days ago, i read an article that said it was highly likely that it was a waiter.

 

I agree with your analysis of the percentages.   The vast majority of people embarking are passengers, not crew.

If the original person who was sick worked in the kitchen -- you would expect their room mate to be infected,

and you would expect many people that they were in close contact in the kitchen to be sick.

 

 

 

[Aus Traveller]

5 minutes ago, Roberto256 said:

 

Two days ago, i read an article that said it was highly likely that it was a waiter.

 

I agree with your analysis of the percentages.   The vast majority of people embarking are passengers, not crew.

If the original person who was sick worked in the kitchen -- you would expect their room mate to be infected,

and you would expect many people that they were in close contact in the kitchen to be sick.

At first the Police Commissioner said he believed the infection came from someone who worked with food for both passengers and crew. Maybe after someone told him that there are separate kitchens for the crew, he then said he believed it was someone who worked in the galley or maybe a waiter. I find this idea totally unbelievable and I am disappointed that a professional Police officer would put forward his 'theory' without thorough investigation.

 

My numbers quoted above make it clear that the source of the infection could not have been a crew member. The crew live in close quarters: if the infection started with a crew member, many of them would have been a large number by the time the passengers disembarked on 19th. Even four weeks later, the percentage of nowhere nearly as high as the percentage of passengers.

[mousefan73]

On 4/13/2020 at 2:39 PM, Pushka said:

People really need to be careful with the allegations being made about Ruby Princess. 

Agree. to imply that foreigners from the Ruby Princess are solely responsible for spreading Covid in AU is being igorant. 

Google how many flights from Austrialia  took off before borders were closed. We simply live in a global world where people move across continents within hours and take and bring many things. 

 

My opinion on liability is  good luck.. how during a WHO announced pandemic are cruise lines are solely liable.? . how could you 100% prove that virus originated and spread there. Most cruise passengers fly to their ports. so odds are they caught it there. or on the subway the day before on the way to work. 

[Aus Traveller]

12 minutes ago, mousefan73 said:

Agree. to imply that foreigners from the Ruby Princess are solely responsible for spreading Covid in AU is being igorant. 

Google how many flights from Austrialia  took off before borders were closed. We simply live in a global world where people move across continents within hours and take and bring many things. 

 

My opinion on liability is  good luck.. how during a WHO announced pandemic are cruise lines are solely liable.? . how could you 100% prove that virus originated and spread there. Most cruise passengers fly to their ports. so odds are they caught it there. or on the subway the day before on the way to work. 

I don't think it is relevant now to try to track where the COVID infection on the Ruby came from. I posted details about it to show how ridiculous the Police Commissioner's claims are that it came from a kitchen hand/waiter on the ship.

 

People could not have caught it in the subway in Australia before the cruise because there were only literally a few cases. Our first cases were some Chinese tourists from Wuhan who were diagnosed and quarantined near the end of January. On 4th February, Australia closed its borders to people coming from China. Up until 8th March when the Ruby Princess sailed, there were only a handful of cases in Australia, all from overseas who were diagnosed and hospitalized, usually for 14 days. One was my daughter-in-law's sister who returned from France. With each and every case, the authorities track their contacts and these people are also quarantined.

[Aus Traveller]

2 hours ago, Roberto256 said:

 

Two days ago, i read an article that said it was highly likely that it was a waiter.

A problem I see is that the Police Commissioner puts forward his 'theory' and newspapers print it as "Police reveal they know the source of the COVID infection on the Ruby Princess. But it is only a theory, a silly one at that.

 

BTW, I don't blame you for saying that "it was highly likely that it was a waiter" because that is what you read. A couple of my family members have also heard it on TV or read it and repeat it as fact. The more times that newspapers print this, the worse it is for Princess. I absolutely do not mean to be political, but the story "it was a waiter" is Fake News!!!🙂