Plain and Simple

[DCGuy64]

6 hours ago, SpainAlien said:

I sell insurance in Europe and our holiday insurance companies are now including Covid19 cover as an option 

 

We booked an all-inclusive for January and it includes COVID-19, and no vaccine yet. It might be different for cruises in the future, but for now, there ARE insurance policies that cover the COVID virus and don't require a vaccination.

[Pav]

If some people are vaccinated and the same basic safety measures are being followed by all, why the big worry about people who are not vaccinated? The vaccine should give you that extra protection and peace of mind.

[Gershep]

There is no proof that a vaccine is going to be 100% safe or work. So forcing people to take it makes no sense.

[Trimone]

1 minute ago, Pav said:

If some people are vaccinated and the same basic safety measures are being followed by all, why the big worry about people who are not vaccinated? The vaccine should give you that extra protection and peace of mind.

What if you’re cruise is abandoned because of an outbreak, just because someone is has not had a vaccine? 

[Pav]

That is a good point

[farmersfight]

12 hours ago, YankeeFan4Ever said:

Agreed, unless the J&J vaccine works out. Please correct me if I’m wrong but that one is only 1 shot.

 

I believe you are correct. That is what I read, as well. The Johnson & Johnson vaccine will be 1 shot vs the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines which will require 2 shots.

[HuliHuli]

13 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Facts: 500 million doses worldwide covers 3% of the world's population leaving 97% unprotected. You need 15.6 billion doses. 

Forget supplying the world.  Let's focus on America First and these 500 million doses covers about 75% of our population.  Now we are getting somewhere.

[Red-Sol]

IMHO the cruise lines will end up requiring people to be vaccinated and show proof of it before boarding. People who do not wish to take it will still have that choice but if they choose not to they will also realize they are also choosing not to cruise. We can argue all day about any vaccines, associated risks, effectiveness, etc....but the cruise lines will be looking at the fact that forcing people to be vaccinated mitigates the risks of their own liability.

[OzCanuck]

47 minutes ago, Pav said:

That is a good point

 Said nobody, on the internet, ever.

[DCGuy64]

12 minutes ago, Red-Sol said:

IMHO the cruise lines will end up requiring people to be vaccinated and show proof of it before boarding. People who do not wish to take it will still have that choice but if they choose not to they will also realize they are also choosing not to cruise. We can argue all day about any vaccines, associated risks, effectiveness, etc....but the cruise lines will be looking at the fact that forcing people to be vaccinated mitigates the risks of their own liability.

This is an interesting point of view. My guess is that it could be very difficult to put into practice. Several issues jump out:

1. Who determines what constitutes proof of a vaccination? Is it a document? If so, what official documents will the cruise line accept? Will it differ from cruise line to cruise line or will there be a standard one?

2. What prevents someone from getting a fake vaccination document?

3. Suppose you get vaccinated but you still test positive? What then?

4. What if people who booked, decide to cancel if vaccinations are required, and not enough people take their place so they're left with empty ships? Will the cruise lines reverse course?

5. Will the cruise lines do the vaccinating themselves?

I agree with you that the cruise lines will try to mitigate their liability, but the devil is in the details with these kinds of things. It will be interesting to see how the cruise lines deal with this.

[All-ready2cruise]

For those suggesting that all passengers will be required to have proof of receiving the vaccine, I totally agree.  As I've said before, and this is just my opinion, the cruise lines own the ships,  they hire the crew and staff to work on the ships. They want their passengers to feel safe cruising on their ships. 

 

So.....

 

Why wouldn't they take every possible precaution to protect their livelihood and the lives of their passengers and crew? 

 

I expect it to be very simple, no vaccine, no boarding the ship. Done. 

[All-ready2cruise]

To put this whole question of a requirement of vaccine and proof, let's go back a few months when this whole C-19 started.

 

I had a cruise booked for end of March,  and when it got close to sail date, I was told by NCL that I would require a "Fit to Travel Certification" from my doctor. If I didn't get one, I would not be allowed on the cruise.  I cancelled the cruise b/c there was no way I'd ever throw my doctor under the bus, then NCL started cancelling the cruises, thank goodness. 

 

Obviously, this was very early on and no one expected the kind of outcome we've seen as far as the number of cases and sad number of deaths caused in whole or in part due to this virus.  

 

The thing is, if they required a Fit to Travel Certificate back then, what makes you think they won't require a Proof of Vaccination, now (or when cruises resume)? Just sayin' and yes, I could be wrong. 

 

 

Stay safe and I'm M-asking you to wear a Mask. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by All-ready2cruise
ps

[Red-Sol]

5 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

This is an interesting point of view. My guess is that it could be very difficult to put into practice. Several issues jump out:

1. Who determines what constitutes proof of a vaccination? Is it a document? If so, what official documents will the cruise line accept? Will it differ from cruise line to cruise line or will there be a standard one?

2. What prevents someone from getting a fake vaccination document?

3. Suppose you get vaccinated but you still test positive? What then?

4. What if people who booked, decide to cancel if vaccinations are required, and not enough people take their place so they're left with empty ships? Will the cruise lines reverse course?

5. Will the cruise lines do the vaccinating themselves?

I agree with you that the cruise lines will try to mitigate their liability, but the devil is in the details with these kinds of things. It will be interesting to see how the cruise lines deal with this.

Those are all good points and concerns and I am sure they can all be addressed as we are still quite a number of months away from being able to happen.

If you recall right before everything went to hell in March most if not all of the cruise lines tried to institute a form where people over 70 (I think) needed to get a health care professional to sign a form (within 3 days of the cruise) saying they were fit to travel. It ended up being a moot point since everything collapsed....but that was an attempt to mitigate their risks. I find it hard to believe that they won't require vaccinations when the time comes.

[DCGuy64]

20 minutes ago, Red-Sol said:

Those are all good points and concerns and I am sure they can all be addressed as we are still quite a number of months away from being able to happen.

If you recall right before everything went to hell in March most if not all of the cruise lines tried to institute a form where people over 70 (I think) needed to get a health care professional to sign a form (within 3 days of the cruise) saying they were fit to travel. It ended up being a moot point since everything collapsed....but that was an attempt to mitigate their risks. I find it hard to believe that they won't require vaccinations when the time comes.

I do remember that, and I also remember the hue and cry from members of this forum who said they'd never do that and thus wouldn't sail. It's anyone's guess if that will change in the future, but as I stated previously, the cruise industry depends on paying customers, and if they balk, the industry loses money. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why a vaccine would be necessary in the future when MSC has had 1,000s of passengers since reopening in August with no outbreaks and no vaccines.

[yankees111]

23 hours ago, FLcruisergrl said:

Wow. You speak with such certainty. Are you a policy maker or clairvoyant?

Neither. Just a realist.

[ziggyuk]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

This is an interesting point of view. My guess is that it could be very difficult to put into practice. Several issues jump out:

1. Who determines what constitutes proof of a vaccination? Is it a document? If so, what official documents will the cruise line accept? Will it differ from cruise line to cruise line or will there be a standard one?

2. What prevents someone from getting a fake vaccination document?

3. Suppose you get vaccinated but you still test positive? What then?

4. What if people who booked, decide to cancel if vaccinations are required, and not enough people take their place so they're left with empty ships? Will the cruise lines reverse course?

5. Will the cruise lines do the vaccinating themselves?

I agree with you that the cruise lines will try to mitigate their liability, but the devil is in the details with these kinds of things. It will be interesting to see how the cruise lines deal with this.

 

I believe the existing systems are adequate, some countries require a certificate of yellow fever vaccination and a similar system could apply here.

 

Anything can be faked and that's a risk that needs to be taken, anyone faking documents could face serious sanctions. I'm not sure many would want to present fake documents if they were required while presenting the passport to government officials.

 

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/diseases/yellow-fever

 

[Red-Sol]

31 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I do remember that, and I also remember the hue and cry from members of this forum who said they'd never do that and thus wouldn't sail. It's anyone's guess if that will change in the future, but as I stated previously, the cruise industry depends on paying customers, and if they balk, the industry loses money. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why a vaccine would be necessary in the future when MSC has had 1,000s of passengers since reopening in August with no outbreaks and no vaccines.

 

I admit I haven't spent any time understanding what MSC is currently doing....what are the length of those cruises? Are they just 3 - 4 days cruises or anything longer?

[Formula280SS]

39 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I do remember that, and I also remember the hue and cry from members of this forum who said they'd never do that and thus wouldn't sail. It's anyone's guess if that will change in the future, but as I stated previously, the cruise industry depends on paying customers, and if they balk, the industry loses money. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why a vaccine would be necessary in the future when MSC has had 1,000s of passengers since reopening in August with no outbreaks and no vaccines.

 

We're now in the vaccine "discussion phase" after dealing with the "mask phase" for months. 

 

As I've referred to before, going against the "establishment" (both all medical and scientific and governance; except a couple of countries), was so taboo that medical and scientific research was "cancelled."

 

Today, a well known "cancelled" research on masks was finally open to sunlight.  If you read the study you'll see why all those in the "establishment" didn't want it out there.  Take a look at the "differential" in mask wearing in the study.  

 

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

 

 

There are other research studies "still cancelled" about the improper use of masks "increasing transmission to ones self and others" ~ repeated use, touching the exterior, not washing or sterilizing hands before and after "each" putting on and off, etc.  Still waiting for those see sunlight.

 

As an aside, as a proud long-term germaphobe, I am a mask proponent retroactively for the cold, pneumonia and flu seasons also, especially in high density situations (like a cruise).🙄

[DCGuy64]

55 minutes ago, Red-Sol said:

 

I admit I haven't spent any time understanding what MSC is currently doing....what are the length of those cruises? Are they just 3 - 4 days cruises or anything longer?

They were 7-day cruises. The first ones were to only Italian ports, then gradually expanded to include places like Malta and a couple of Greek ports.

[ziggyuk]

18 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

They were 7-day cruises. The first ones were to only Italian ports, then gradually expanded to include places like Malta and a couple of Greek ports.

 

And the UK next Yay.

I have two booked which are sailing from Southampton on the new protocols early next year.

A 3 day channel islands and a 8 day Norway Fjords.

[hamrag]

3 hours ago, Pav said:

If some people are vaccinated and the same basic safety measures are being followed by all, why the big worry about people who are not vaccinated? The vaccine should give you that extra protection and peace of mind.

 

Is that a serious question? If yes, and you don't know the answer, I shan't waste my time!

[Pav]

7 minutes ago, hamrag said:

 

Is that a serious question? If yes, and you don't know the answer, I shan't waste my time!

Is yours a serious question? If yes, and you don't know the answer, I shan't either!

[hamrag]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I do remember that, and I also remember the hue and cry from members of this forum who said they'd never do that and thus wouldn't sail....

 

That's fine by me! 😁

[roger001]

4 hours ago, Gershep said:

There is no proof that a vaccine is going to be 100% safe or work. So forcing people to take it makes no sense.

No.  Only 95% or so effective as seems to be "proven" at this point (but then, what the hell do all those medical lab doctors and professionals know better than  I do).     Hey.  I'm going  with their "opinions" on it still  though.    And, I do though encourage all of you to be very suspicious of it, and for sure hang on to the "nobody can tell me what to do" thoughts.  Do not let someone talk you into getting it.  I'm being a bit selfish since the more of you that do that, the more vaccine is available for me!   I appreciate it.   

[Travelicious]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:01 AM, MrsKC08 said:

Your point?

That your proud refusal to cooperate with requested contact tracing, and the rather common, selfish attitude which leads to such a refusal, is part of the problem that is causing this virus to spread unabated.  Contact tracing is not necessarily only to determine where you got the virus, but to notify others of possible exposure so that they can take precautions and not spread it to others.