DeSantis files suit against Biden Admin and the CDC

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, Yesimapirate said:

You would if thousands of your states jobs were dependent on it.  

 

I don't think many truly understand the economic impact cruising has on the Florida economy.   From hotels, buses, farmers,  food distributors,  line suppliers, that are obvious to less obvious things like parking attendants, the cruise line office staff,  even audio-visual suppliers all take a significant hit when ships aren't sailing. You better believe we want our politicians to keep us safe.   And safe means giving us a means other than the paltry $265/wk Florida unemployment.   Let people work!

I don't disagree with your sentiment but I think the cruise lines and the industries associated with this should have filed suit long ago, very long ago.   I don't why they waited for a government bail out which is basically what this is.  

[warburg]

Greetings from South Beach. As a resident here, I see how much damage this shut down has caused. Cruise ships are floating small towns. Everything you might need, in Every Town is aboard, supplied somehow. The cruise lines that have moved operations offshore are doing a service, and pleasing lots of people. I will not be surprised if more cruise lines follow suit. Most experienced cruisers are used to flying to and from fabulous itineraries. My sister and I are booked in December on the Joy. Hopefully it will sail. 

Mary

Edited April 8, 2021 by warburg

[PelicanBill]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

This article puts the cost to FL at around $22 billion and is from February. Regardless of the actual number, it's been devastating to Floridians and the sooner the ban (or whatever you choose to call it) is lifted, the better.

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/economy-business/2021-02-07/cruise-industry-recovery-in-florida-likely-to-be-a-long-haul

 

mmmm wait a moment. That's not cruise stoppage impact. That's everything they can think of, total economic impact from the Pandemic, related to all 15 major seaports, not just the 4 that conduct regular cruises.

 

"The Florida Ports Council, which continues to push for seaports to be included in federal pandemic relief efforts, has estimated that the economic impact of COVID-19 on the 15 ports in Florida has reached $22 billion, cutting $775 million in tax revenue and affecting 170,000 jobs."

[DCGuy64]

4 minutes ago, PelicanBill said:

mmmm wait a moment. That's not cruise stoppage impact. That's everything they can think of, total economic impact from the Pandemic, related to all 15 major seaports, not just the 4 that conduct regular cruises.

 

"The Florida Ports Council, which continues to push for seaports to be included in federal pandemic relief efforts, has estimated that the economic impact of COVID-19 on the 15 ports in Florida has reached $22 billion, cutting $775 million in tax revenue and affecting 170,000 jobs."

Fine, nitpick over the numbers, PelicanBill. How about seeing the forest instead of the trees? Better yet, check out the post immediately preceding yours. Come on......🙄🤷‍♂️

[Navis]

Having read both the filing and the complete revised CSO, I can say that, on its face, it is not as laughable as other suits I’ve seen in my days, but I don’t think this is likely to succeed or force HHS/CDC’s hand so I’m not sure what the point really is.

 

The teeth of the argument is disparate treatment of cruise lines versus other forms of travel (not sure FL can actually make that claim as their harm is derivative of that claim, but I’ll assume for now they can avoid jurisdictional dismissal). The other claims are just toss aways that have almost no real likelihood of success. 
 

But on that point of disparate treatment, FL has a high bar and I don’t see how they get there. Although the court can most certainly review the CSO, under the APA they owe strong deference to the agencies’ actions here and absent a showing of having been arbitrary or capricious in adopting the CSO, the court will not supplant their judgment with either its own or Florida’s. 
 

So, let’s start with the obvious, the CDC is not prohibiting cruising altogether. They are just imposing requirements the cruise lines do not like. Second step would be to acknowledge that the CDC’s requirements for cruises are in fact much different than say air travel. And they most certainly are.
 

If the CSO said nothing about this disparate treatment at all then FL would have a stronger case that CDC did not consider the matter appropriately and the CSO conditions could be viewed as arbitrary. The problem for FL is that the CSO addresses this head on. It has a whole section on why cruises create a “unique problem.” They then go on to provide their data. I won’t bore anyone here, but here’s the summary ...

 

1) the R0 traceable to cruises proved to be an order of magnitude and then some higher than the initial R0 seen around the world within community spread and/or other forms of transport.

 

2) even when smaller cruises with greater passenger space ratios were observed they still found exponentially higher R0s than other socially distanced environments. (This was the basis for the CDC saying social distancing and decreased capacity for cruises alone were not enough) 

 

3) cruise ships add the unique aspect of having crew cohabitate with passengers in tight quarters for extended periods of time with little to no ability to practice appropriate social distancing. (Really the key difference for why cruises are different than say airplanes or trains and probably a huge reason for why the R0s on cruises were so astronomical)

 

Now, we can all argue both sides here and what we think and what the situation is now, but the truth is none of that is going to matter to a court. The truth is the CSO sets forth the factual predicate for the disparate treatment of cruise ships and no court is going to supplant that judgement for its own. 
 

I don’t think this is solely political theater and makes one valid argument ... the problem is the argument is incredibly weak and the standard of review is very high. 

[drew69]

https://bocanewsnow.com/2021/04/08/florida-covid-drama-huge-surge-in-new-cases-record-set/

 

 

[Mary229]

What is surging or not is not relevant if the cruises are to be 100% vaccinated - crew and passengers.  

[farmersfight]

5 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I'm glad to see FL pushing ahead with this lawsuit. I read a post on here last week that it was just "saber rattling." Apparently not!

 

I hope Gov Abbott of Texas joins the suit because Galveston has become a fairly big cruise port now.

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, farmersfight said:

 

I hope Gov Abbott of Texas joins the suit because Galveston has become a fairly big cruise port now.

I think Texas has their hands full right now.  We are spending a fortune on the border and don’t need to put out every fire

[DCGuy64]

27 minutes ago, drew69 said:

https://bocanewsnow.com/2021/04/08/florida-covid-drama-huge-surge-in-new-cases-record-set/

 

 

Be sure to come back and report that the cases fell again, just like the graph you provided shows they did over, and over, and over. Cases have been rising and falling for a year.

[GonzoWCS]

8 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I'm glad to see FL pushing ahead with this lawsuit. I read a post on here last week that it was just "saber rattling." Apparently not!

Bang on

[richstowe]

7 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed.  This is more political theatre from the Governor.  

Yup . No fan of the "special treatment" the CDC has smacked the cruise industry with but why is DeSantis only acting tough now . Why it's almost as if he was afraid of upsetting the previous administration . 🙄

[harkinmr]

This is certainly not helpful.  First the Governor files a lawsuit to demand a cruise restart and then announces that he will oppose a vaccine mandate and the cruise lines will not get an exemption under his vaccine passport order.

 

"The governor, who signed an executive order forbidding Covid vaccine passports, said the cruise industry won’t get an exception. He’s adamant that public entities, along with the private sector, not require people show proof that they have been vaccinated. 

 

Even if cruise lines wanted to move forward with a vaccine passport, DeSantis said he would oppose it."

 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-suing-federal-government-cdc-to-allow-cruise-to-resume-sailing-desantis/2423966/

 

 

[jjkandlak]

Bravo! DeSantis is a rising star and glad to see the pushback

[mkdreams]

42 minutes ago, richstowe said:

Yup . No fan of the "special treatment" the CDC has smacked the cruise industry with but why is DeSantis only acting tough now . Why it's almost as if he was afraid of upsetting the previous administration . 🙄

At least he is trying to get something done which is more then you can say about those currently in charge.

Edited April 9, 2021 by mkdreams

[mkdreams]

26 minutes ago, jjkandlak said:

Bravo! DeSantis is a rising star and glad to see the pushback

Totally agree!

[GTarrant]

9 hours ago, harkinmr said:

This is certainly not helpful.  First the Governor files a lawsuit to demand a cruise restart and then announces that he will oppose a vaccine mandate and the cruise lines will not get an exemption under his vaccine passport order.

 

"The governor, who signed an executive order forbidding Covid vaccine passports, said the cruise industry won’t get an exception. He’s adamant that public entities, along with the private sector, not require people show proof that they have been vaccinated. 

 

Even if cruise lines wanted to move forward with a vaccine passport, DeSantis said he would oppose it."

 

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-suing-federal-government-cdc-to-allow-cruise-to-resume-sailing-desantis/2423966/

 

 

There is no way he can win on this point. Not because of US law but because all of the other countries the ship is going to are going to require that the cruise line have verified vaccination or they won't let the ship stop there.

 

DeSantis can't control those other countries. Much like you needing to show proof of vaccination to get a visa to some countries, or to show your passport BEFORE you get on an international flight - not when you arrive in a foreign country - the cruise lines are going to have to collect vaccination information in order to sail or no other country will let the ship stop there.

 

He isn't wrong that the CDC has been slow-rolling this. But any vessel that is going internationally is GOING to be at some point checking vaccination status so they know you can actually legally go to wherever your destination is. International travel is a completely different thing than saying that a local Florida business can or can't do something.

[Summerstravel]

17 hours ago, Yesimapirate said:

Yes, maybe they can pay for it with the payroll taxes generated by all the cruise releated jobs that aren't currently working. 

 

Let's try to function in the real world and not in a political blog.   The solution to lost jobs isn't paying people more money to not work.

 

Let me add,  I really hope you don't have any friends,  family,  neighbors or customers who rely on those businesses or they might change their opinion of you.

Florida does not have state income this is probably why the unemployment funds are low compared to other states.  

[Mary229]

13 minutes ago, Summerstravel said:

Florida does not have state income this is probably why the unemployment funds are low compared to other states.  

That makes no sense.  Employers pay unemployment insurance premiums, that is how unemployment benefits are funded.  

[ilovetotravel1977]

But if the cruise lines are making vaccinations 100% for every person on the ship, and airlines do not even do this, wouldn't this be a sure bet?  

[Summerstravel]

43 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

That makes no sense.  Employers pay unemployment insurance premiums, that is how unemployment benefits are funded.  

Alaska, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are subject to state unemployment tax withholding. If you have employees in any of these three states, you will withhold the tax from their wages and remit the tax to the state. Not all states are like Florida. Bottom line Florida's unemployment  pay rate is very low compared to other states. (just trying to figure why)  I really feel bad for all the out of work people. (especially in the cruise industry)  

[richstowe]

11 hours ago, jjkandlak said:

Bravo! DeSantis is a rising star and glad to see the pushback

 

 

jjkandlak replied to Smokeyham's topic in Ask a Cruise Question

Yes! I got my second vaccine on Sunday and would prefer cruises to only cater to those who can prove proof of vaccination.

 March 23

 

How do you reconcile your 2 posts with your support of brave brave DeSantis ? Wow .

Edited April 9, 2021 by richstowe

[Mary229]

35 minutes ago, Summerstravel said:

Alaska, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are subject to state unemployment tax withholding. If you have employees in any of these three states, you will withhold the tax from their wages and remit the tax to the state. Not all states are like Florida. Bottom line Florida's unemployment  pay rate is very low compared to other states. (just trying to figure why)  I really feel bad for all the out of work people. (especially in the cruise industry)  

But still it has nothing to do with income tax.  It is paid by the employer.  I live in an income tax free state and run a business. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Summerstravel said:

Alaska, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are subject to state unemployment tax withholding. If you have employees in any of these three states, you will withhold the tax from their wages and remit the tax to the state. Not all states are like Florida. Bottom line Florida's unemployment  pay rate is very low compared to other states. (just trying to figure why)  I really feel bad for all the out of work people. (especially in the cruise industry)  

Florida's unemployment is funded the same way, through employer tax:

 

https://floridarevenue.com/taxes/taxesfees/Pages/reemployment.aspx#:~:text=Reemployment tax is paid by,a calendar year is taxable.

 

The reason Florida's unemployment benefits are so low is that the tax is based only on the first $7000 of each employee's wages.

[Summerstravel]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Florida's unemployment is funded the same way, through employer tax:

 

https://floridarevenue.com/taxes/taxesfees/Pages/reemployment.aspx#:~:text=Reemployment tax is paid by,a calendar year is taxable.

 

The reason Florida's unemployment benefits are so low is that the tax is based only on the first $7000 of each employee's wages.

 Thank you for the information!