New updates as of 5/21

[gone2c]

24 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I'll leave it to the lawyers here to comment, but my understanding is that as long as a ship remains in the territorial waters of a country, the ship and its occupants are subject to the laws of that country. A person boarding a ship can not claim sanctuary, and crew members can't defy the laws of Florida simply by virtue of being aboard. Whether ashore in the terminal or aboard the ship, Celebrity can not ask for proof of vaccination at the current time.

 

 

Yes, I agree with you.  Actually I think it even narrows down to the law of the state they are docked in.  Although I live in Texas, it has been several years since I have sailed from here.  But it used to be that as Texas has some weird liquor laws (actually several other weird laws) cruise ships could not sell any liquor that was not bought in this state.  Consequently in Galveston they could only sell liquor that was bought here until they reached international waters which was several hours away. Drove everyone mad.   

[Ken the cruiser]

3 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

😃So I guess the silly answer would be to require proof prior to check-in, collected by an out of state affiliate (works real well for HAL, for instance; they're in Seattle), and then the only people affected would be Florida residents who they might not be able to collect information from under the law. And wouldn't be able to sail...😃

 

Which is at least 90% a joke, BTW.  Cueing Jagged Little Pill, tenth track...

But, wherever the passengers are from to include Florida, all they would be acknowledging pre-cruise is that they would be required to provide proof of vaccination once onboard the ship. There would be no requirement to actually show the proof prior to boarding, just their acknowledge they will have to provide it once onboard.

[Covepointcruiser]

When making our July reservation I was asked about the COVID vaccine, type and date that we received our last shot.    We were also told that we would need to provide proof and that we also would be given a COVID test before we board the ship.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, kearney said:

Okay...not a lawyer... and perhaps this is a bad idea... but trying to find middle ground on the vaccine passenger issue. Couldn't cruise ships accept people at their word that they have been vaccinated...but that if they contract covid and a later review of medical records finds that they were not vaccinated that there is some penalty... void travel insurance coverage... pay for care... etc. Something that makes people think twice about faking it. That way...no 'passport' issue. Just a thought... and I know this might be over the top... but this thing keeps floating around without resolution...just gets me thinking.  I had thought perhaps an antibody test would work..to establish vaccination or at least immunity...but read someplace that that wouldn't work... not sure why...

Except for all of the other passengers whose cruises might be impacted by someone who chose not to be honest.

[hawkesbaynz]

Perhaps the problem is you have too many lawyers😕

[Fouremco]

43 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Just curious, why can't Celebrity wait until a passenger gets onboard before they ask them for proof of being vaccinated as part of the final check-in process (to circumvent the stupid Florida law)? And if they don't have proof, why can't they cancel their reservation?

Again, the ship remains under the jurisdiction of the state while docked in US territorial. For example, if you make an advance purchase of a bottle of liquor for delivery to your cabin prior to your arrival aboard, you will be charged Florida's liquor tax. If you ask to have it delivered once the ship has reached international waters, you don't have to pay the tax. So, if Celebrity waits until a ship reaches international waters to ask for verification, no problem. But asking passengers as soon as they board violates Florida's (stupid) law.

 

I appreciate the frustration over this ridiculous piece of legislation, particularly for those of us who are only willing to cruise on ships where vaccinations are required, but I don't think that crossing over the gangplank to board the ship provides a solution to the problem. 

[WestLakeGirl]

I can see it now. Board in Florida and as soon as the ship reaches international water you lineup and show your proof of vaccination. Don’t have one? Tenders will be ready to ferry you back to shore.

[Ken the cruiser]

2 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Again, the ship remains under the jurisdiction of the state while docked in US territorial. For example, if you make an advance purchase of a bottle of liquor for delivery to your cabin prior to your arrival aboard, you will be charged Florida's liquor tax. If you ask to have it delivered once the ship has reached international waters, you don't have to pay the tax. So, if Celebrity waits until a ship reaches international waters to ask for verification, no problem. But asking passengers as soon as they board violates Florida's (stupid) law.

 

I appreciate the frustration over this ridiculous piece of legislation, particularly for those of us who are only willing to cruise on ships where vaccinations are required, but I don't think that crossing over the gangplank to board the ship provides a solution to the problem. 

Thanks. You make a good case, but hopefully all this gets resolved soon enough so we can go cruising out of Florida on a fully vaccinated cruise starting in July. 😎

[kearney]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Except for all of the other passengers whose cruises might be impacted by someone who chose not to be honest.

This can happen anyway if people present false documents...

[harkinmr]

3 hours ago, kearney said:

Couldn't cruise ships accept people at their word that they have been vaccinated...but that if they contract covid and a later review of medical records finds that they were not vaccinated that there is some penalty...

Umm. No.  People lie on their health declaration forms all the time before cruising. What makes anyone think that the honor system is going to work with COVID vaccines?  One of the major hurdles is that the cruise lines need to certify passenger and crew vaccination rates to the CDC.  So they are liable (even criminally) if there is any fraud. The second hurdle is that if there is an outbreak because cruisers have been untruthful, there could be a cancellation or interruption of the cruise. Not good for anyone, including the cruise lines. This vaccination issue with Florida’s Governor needs to be resolved. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by harkinmr

[MamaFej]

1 hour ago, WestLakeGirl said:

I can see it now. Board in Florida and as soon as the ship reaches international water you lineup and show your proof of vaccination. Don’t have one? Tenders will be ready to ferry you back to shore.

A 12 mile tender ride? While the ship remains stationary, waiting for the tenders to return? That seems a bit much. 

 

Maybe just let them swim, they knew the rules before booking.

 

😜😜 😜😜  😜😜 😜😜 

 

I'm kidding, folks. don't get your knickers in a wad. 

 

 

 

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, markeb said:

 

😃So I guess the silly answer would be to require proof prior to check-in, collected by an out of state affiliate (works real well for HAL, for instance; they're in Seattle), and then the only people affected would be Florida residents who they might not be able to collect information from under the law. And wouldn't be able to sail...😃

 

Which is at least 90% a joke, BTW.  Cueing Jagged Little Pill, tenth track...

I think it’s a nice try, but the “affiliate” and out-state-company status does not get them there. HAL (and all the others) are still registered to do business in Florida, which is the link Florida is hanging on to.  They are going to have to argue interstate/international commerce which would prohibit the state from imposing regulations or laws in contravention of federal or international law. I think everyone may be wasting a lot of time trying to find “technicalities” here. 

[markeb]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

But, wherever the passengers are from to include Florida, all they would be acknowledging pre-cruise is that they would be required to provide proof of vaccination once onboard the ship. There would be no requirement to actually show the proof prior to boarding, just their acknowledge they will have to provide it once onboard.

 

More serious answer.

 

If I were designing the system, I'd require you to enter mandatory elements during your check-in, at least 2 weeks before sailing (since they allow you to sail two weeks after vaccination). I could care less about the CDC card; it actually doesn't contain the elements our local school district would require for student enrollment. What I'd want you to enter is: date of immunization(s), location of your medical records, and facility name and contact information for your medical records. And probably require you to upload an immunization record with the same information. The CDC card only has your name and information on the date of immunization/lot number, etc. There's no contact information. Mine actually only has an abbreviation for the facility that would mean nothing to anyone who doesn't use that facility. From that card, arguably, there's no way to verify that you were vaccinated. Which is a very good reason to get your vaccine information into your permanent records with your PCM. 

 

And if I were CLIA, I'd be working with the health departments of at least one sovereign nation on each itinerary to ensure they required incoming cruise passengers be vaccinated and that the carrier verify their vaccine status prior to arriving.

 

Whether that would violate the state law or not would be for a team of very highly paid attorneys to sort out. While the cruise industry remained idle in Florida...

[markeb]

11 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I think it’s a nice try, but the “affiliate” and out-state-company status does not get them there. HAL (and all the others) are still registered to do business in Florida, which is the link Florida is hanging on to.  They are going to have to argue interstate/international commerce which would prohibit the state from imposing regulations or laws in contravention of federal or international law. I think everyone may be wasting a lot of time trying to find “technicalities” here. 

 

I didn't say it would work; I just think it would be "Ironic" if it did...

[nocl]

1 hour ago, kearney said:

This can happen anyway if people present false documents...

I suspect that if it was the honor system more people would violate the system, than would prepare and present a falsified document that could be checked and verified.  After all the CDC card while easily falsified does contain the location and date where one was vaccinated.

[nocl]

17 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

More serious answer.

 

If I were designing the system, I'd require you to enter mandatory elements during your check-in, at least 2 weeks before sailing (since they allow you to sail two weeks after vaccination). I could care less about the CDC card; it actually doesn't contain the elements our local school district would require for student enrollment. What I'd want you to enter is: date of immunization(s), location of your medical records, and facility name and contact information for your medical records. And probably require you to upload an immunization record with the same information. The CDC card only has your name and information on the date of immunization/lot number, etc. There's no contact information. Mine actually only has an abbreviation for the facility that would mean nothing to anyone who doesn't use that facility. From that card, arguably, there's no way to verify that you were vaccinated. Which is a very good reason to get your vaccine information into your permanent records with your PCM. 

 

And if I were CLIA, I'd be working with the health departments of at least one sovereign nation on each itinerary to ensure they required incoming cruise passengers be vaccinated and that the carrier verify their vaccine status prior to arriving.

 

Whether that would violate the state law or not would be for a team of very highly paid attorneys to sort out. While the cruise industry remained idle in Florida...

Mine has the location where the vaccine was administered (the pharmacy brand and store number).  In the space that calls for Healthcare professional or Clinic Site.

Edited May 22, 2021 by nocl

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

More serious answer.

 

If I were designing the system, I'd require you to enter mandatory elements during your check-in, at least 2 weeks before sailing (since they allow you to sail two weeks after vaccination). I could care less about the CDC card; it actually doesn't contain the elements our local school district would require for student enrollment. What I'd want you to enter is: date of immunization(s), location of your medical records, and facility name and contact information for your medical records. And probably require you to upload an immunization record with the same information. The CDC card only has your name and information on the date of immunization/lot number, etc. There's no contact information. Mine actually only has an abbreviation for the facility that would mean nothing to anyone who doesn't use that facility. From that card, arguably, there's no way to verify that you were vaccinated. Which is a very good reason to get your vaccine information into your permanent records with your PCM. 

 

And if I were CLIA, I'd be working with the health departments of at least one sovereign nation on each itinerary to ensure they required incoming cruise passengers be vaccinated and that the carrier verify their vaccine status prior to arriving.

 

Whether that would violate the state law or not would be for a team of very highly paid attorneys to sort out. While the cruise industry remained idle in Florida...

So let's take my DW and I's shot records for an example to apply to your idea. We got both of our Pfizer shots, 3 weeks apart, by way of a mass vaccination site where we stayed in our car the whole time. For our efforts, we received our fully filled out CDC card. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when we took our CDC cards to our nearby AFB where we had our permanent shot record updated to reflect we received both Pfizer shots. Would a printout of our military shot record on a piece of paper qualify as an official recording if you're saying our CDC cards wouldn't? Hypothetically, of course.

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[markeb]

1 minute ago, Ken the cruiser said:

So let's take my DW and I's shot records for an example to apply to your idea. We got both of our Pfizer shots, 3 weeks apart, by way of a mass vaccination site where we stayed in our car the whole time. For our efforts, we received our fully filled out CDC card. Fast forward to a few weeks ago when we took our CDC cards to our nearby AFB where we had our permanent shot record updated to reflect we received both Pfizer shots. Would a printout of our military shot record on a piece of paper qualify as an official recording if you're saying our CDC cards wouldn't?

Yes. But right now, the CDC card works as an official record.  If I were designing the system, I’d want something more like an immunization printout from your records. But I didn’t design the system. 
 

The benefit of your official vaccine record is it has all the elements (who, what, when) and contact information. My card only has FBCH, which only has meaning if you’re in the TRICARE system and recognize what it stands for. And there’s still no phone number or contact information. Or signature, which is kind of old fashioned…

 

The main thing to me is a method to get information in early. Waiting dockside for a card doesn’t seem value added to me. 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

Yes. But right now, the CDC card works as an official record.  If I were designing the system, I’d want something more like an immunization printout from your records. But I didn’t design the system. 
 

The benefit of your official vaccine record is it has all the elements (who, what, when) and contact information. My card only has FBCH, which only has meaning if you’re in the TRICARE system and recognize what it stands for. And there’s still no phone number or contact information. Or signature, which is kind of old fashioned…

 

The main thing to me is a method to get information in early. Waiting dockside for a card doesn’t seem value added to me. 

Fort Belvoir Community Hospital??  

 

 

[markeb]

7 minutes ago, nocl said:

Fort Belvoir Community Hospital??  

 

 

Yes. 

[swigso]

I am in the UK and both myself and my wife have had both jabs (Pfizer).

we have the cards showing our jab information but the UK Government 

now have a National Health Service app. I have registered and it has details of my 
COVID Injections and can be used as a vaccination Passport.

I am really impressed.

[kearney]

With all this talk of vaccine passports... I wonder if the database doesn't already exist. It seems to me that the card is nice..but can be faked... and It would make more sense if the cruise lines could verify the information before passengers arrived at the terminal. If all vaccine sites (in the US) did what ours did.... in addition to name and address, they wanted your insurance info...even though the shots were paid for by the government. Assuming that in addition to telling us the brand and lot number of the vaccine...that data was also recorded... it would have made sense to have placed all that info in a centralized or at least partially centralized system (state based) to make verification easier. I know many states have outlawed the idea of vaccine passports...but I wonder if the guts of one already exists. Likely does in the medicare system...but wonder if it is broader than that...

[39august]

As far as I know, my state does not have a vaccination registry. So all we have is our CDC card. My doctor has notated in my file the dates of my vaccine, but that is only taking my word for it. We have no other way of proving vaccination. 

[CeeeKr]

16 hours ago, kearney said:

Okay...not a lawyer... and perhaps this is a bad idea... but trying to find middle ground on the vaccine passenger issue. Couldn't cruise ships accept people at their word that they have been vaccinated...but that if they contract covid and a later review of medical records finds that they were not vaccinated that there is some penalty... void travel insurance coverage... pay for care... etc. Something that makes people think twice about faking it. That way...no 'passport' issue. Just a thought... and I know this might be over the top... but this thing keeps floating around without resolution...just gets me thinking.  I had thought perhaps an antibody test would work..to establish vaccination or at least immunity...but read someplace that that wouldn't work... not sure why...

Hey, make it count... you lie about having been vaccinated and get caught, you earn yourself a lifetime ban on all cruise ships. 

[nocl]

22 minutes ago, 39august said:

As far as I know, my state does not have a vaccination registry. So all we have is our CDC card. My doctor has notated in my file the dates of my vaccine, but that is only taking my word for it. We have no other way of proving vaccination. 

You should be able to go to whomever was responsible for giving you the vaccination. For example I received mine from a Vons Pharmacy. I can get a printout from them. If anybody wanted to confirm that information I can sign a medical release form authorizing them to release my vaccination information to that party.

 

Pretty much all of the vaccines were given out either by county health departments, existing medical organizations, or commercial pharmacies. I include military and indian health service in the existing medical category. If any doubts about proof contact the organization that gave you the vaccine.