Where to find fancy wine on S-class, now that Cellar Masters is disappearing?

[SandG]

Hi, I'm the OP back here again.  I've been enjoying how the conversation has been spinning around, and decided to wait to see what comes from it.  Some of the tangents have been very amusing.

(For the record, we always add Grand Marnier to our Margaritas, and use Cointreau for other recipes.  When our adult daughter and husband were living with us to escape the city during the early Covid days, we did blind taste tests one day, and 3 out of 4 preferred GM in the margarita over Cointreau.  😄   We also keep Chambord in the house (which is a raspberry liqueur) for recipes or just sipping.)

Back to my original question / concern, I thought I'd add a few more details.  Sorry if I also add in a little too much whining about wining here. 🤪

First off,  thank you very much for the wine list!  That's helpful to illustrate my point.  It's those wines that show up under the "Premium Package" that I like to drink on vacation with the occasional tasting of more expensive wines by the glass.  Going to CM is the easiest way to find them beside the dining rooms.  As I'd said earlier, I understand why Celebrity is changing up that venue, and if Craft Social continues to maintain a decent wine list in addition to the craft beers, then I am mostly satisfied (I will miss the dark, quiet atmosphere of CM).  By "decent", I mean at least a wide selection of the wines that are included in the Premium package list.

As an example, my cruise routine is often to have a nice Chardonnay while we sail away from port.  I don't consider myself overly fussy, but I really prefer a Californian Chardonnay (sometimes French) to Australian or Chilean (which are under the "Classic" list).  Do you Chard drinkers get what I mean?  They definitely have a different taste.  And I have paid extra money to upgrade to premium, so shouldn't I be able to drink a premium package level wine somewhere on the ship besides the dining rooms?  Right?  The problem is that nearly all of the bars on board stock only the the cheaper wines.  CM usually opened later than other bars, even on sea days, so if I want to get a glass before it opens, I would have to visit many bars before (hopefully) finding one that carries a Californian or premium package wine.  Sometimes a helpful bar tender will walk to the dining room to get me a better wine, but I would feel guilty about that.  One time, a particularly helpful one always kept a bottle available for me.  🙂   BTW, is it a bad sign when the bar tenders know you by name? 

We are planning a cruise on the Silhouette and wanted to see if there is a place where I'd be able to consistently find a good wine list and from what I read here, it sounds like maybe (?) the Craft Social will satisfy this.  I hope so. 

Thanks for witty conversation.   Carry on ... 

Edited October 22, 2021 by SandG

[chamima]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:19 AM, canderson said:

Here is what I received earlier this week from the shore-side folks:

 

Wine List - By the Glass and Bottle Pricing.pdf 312.93 kB · 176 downloads

 

On 10/15/2021 at 10:07 AM, canderson said:

Not sure what this list represents with regard to venues vs. availability.  It was sent to me by the concierge group at corporate.  Comparing it to lists on the app for other sailings, it may be applicable only to Constellation.  I see definite ship to ship differences.

 

 

That list seems pretty complete.

Do any recent cruisers know how accurate it really is?

BC (Before Covid) the decent red wines available in the Premium package became less and less available over the last 5 years or so.

This list looks like they've brought some back but I wonder if it's a "wish" list or an actual list.

[jg51]

36 minutes ago, chamima said:

That list seems pretty complete.

Do any recent cruisers know how accurate it really is?

BC (Before Covid) the decent red wines available in the Premium package became less and less available over the last 5 years or so.

This list looks like they've brought some back but I wonder if it's a "wish" list or an actual list.

.

It agrees almost 100% with the wines-by-the-glass list in Equinox's MDR (and Luminae [sic]) in September, 2021.  However ...

 

(1) Some [quite a few] of the wines-by-the-glass on that list were NOT available in the various bars around the ship, but only in the MDR/Luminae [and possibly Blu].

 

(2) Some of the bars around the ship -- and the specialty restaurants -- had other wines that are NOT on the above-linked list. 

 

It's necessary to go from venue to venue aboard a ship -- and ask to see each one's specific wine list -- to truly understand what is available.

.

Edited October 29, 2021 by jg51

[canderson]

I'm  little bummed that the best pinot they could come up with by the glass was Cherry Tart.  At less than $20 retail for a bottle, they have no business charging $14 a glass for it, either.

[markeb]

27 minutes ago, canderson said:

I'm  little bummed that the best pinot they could come up with by the glass was Cherry Tart.  At less than $20 retail for a bottle, they have no business charging $14 a glass for it, either.

Buy a bottle of the higher end Penner-Ash Yamhill-Carlton. The by the glass selection is horrible. Cherry Tart?  End Pinot Noir rant 😀

 

No, I’m not Miles…

[canderson]

59 minutes ago, markeb said:

Buy a bottle of the higher end Penner-Ash Yamhill-Carlton. The by the glass selection is horrible. Cherry Tart?  End Pinot Noir rant 😀

 

No, I’m not Miles…

Kinda have my eyeballs on the Goldeneye.  I've never had that one before, and have seen some nice things said about it, and have pretty good luck out of Anderson Valley (last name karma?).  Trouble is, Celebrity never puts a vintage on anything in print.  Half (actually, probably more than half) of the time, the sommelier doesn't know either, and sometimes it matters a great deal.  Sometimes leads to an extra trip for the Sommelier, but I figure that's X's problem.  Personally, if I couldn't keep track, I'd keep a cheat sheet in my pocket.

[39august]

On Equinox 2 weeks ago, there was no Mountadon Champange, but the Metropole champagne at Sky Lounge was OK with me.  Craft Social always had Mer Soliel. And after I asked on the first day for Mer Soliel at the bar in back of the OVC, he had it stocked all the time for me. 

[markeb]

38 minutes ago, canderson said:

Kinda have my eyeballs on the Goldeneye.  I've never had that one before, and have seen some nice things said about it, and have pretty good luck out of Anderson Valley (last name karma?).  Trouble is, Celebrity never puts a vintage on anything in print.  Half (actually, probably more than half) of the time, the sommelier doesn't know either, and sometimes it matters a great deal.  Sometimes leads to an extra trip for the Sommelier, but I figure that's X's problem.  Personally, if I couldn't keep track, I'd keep a cheat sheet in my pocket.

Actually enjoying a 2015 Bravium from Anderson Valley. Goldeneye is very good for a large volume Pinot Noir. You should enjoy it. 
 

I have a basic rule for Pinot Noir of Willamette, Russian River, and NOTHING south of Monterey. With exceptions, of course! Unless it’s actually Burgundy…

[zitsky]

22 minutes ago, markeb said:

Actually enjoying a 2015 Bravium from Anderson Valley. Goldeneye is very good for a large volume Pinot Noir. You should enjoy it. 
 

I have a basic rule for Pinot Noir of Willamette, Russian River, and NOTHING south of Monterey. With exceptions, of course! Unless it’s actually Burgundy…

 

I don't care for Monterey but I will drink Santa Barbara.  A good one from Amity, Oregon is Samuel Robert.   Not expensive.  I get it from Total Wine here in Raleigh.

[markeb]

32 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

I don't care for Monterey but I will drink Santa Barbara.  A good one from Amity, Oregon is Samuel Robert.   Not expensive.  I get it from Total Wine here in Raleigh.

 

Santa Barbara is south of Monterey. Too fruity for a Pinot Noir (on average). For a US Pinot, I stick to nothing south of Monterey other than by exception. Willamette Valley is probably my favorite, Russian River second, "maybe" Monterey County (which is really Salinas). If you like fruit forward Pinot Noir, then you'll probably like Santa Barbara. But I'd much rather have Burgundy than Central Coast.

[Virga]

I apologize for the tangent, but you all seem like just the folks to help me with a goal!

 

Background: twenty years ago, I did not drink beer or wine - just didn't like it.  I got a job at an Irish pub with an extensive import and domestic (then rarely called craft, microbrew was more common) beers.  My manager (now my husband) insisted I try each of the hundred brews we carried.  I discovered that there were a couple dozen I rather liked - all ciders, especially the sweet ones but the dry were still enjoyable, most of the wheats, and some sweeter malty brews like english browns and oatmeal stouts.  Many, many years and beers later, I've come to enjoy most beers - the only ones I won't drink in a pinch these days are the especially hoppy IPAs.  I must have a bit of a palate - I can tell you what I like or don't like about a beer - and I love the diversity in the scene, even in styles that are not my 'sessionable' favorites.

 

Unfortunately, I did not manage this for wine.  I'm certain that I could learn to love wine the way I love beer.  Embarrassingly, all I know I enjoy so far are ports and dessert wines - my favorite is 'Quady Essensia Orange Muscat' and I'll drink most any Moscato =/ My next cruise seems like the perfect way to start training myself up!  I'll be asking for pairings at Blu, and hope the staff at Cellar Masters will take some amusement in helping me on my quest.  I'd very much appreciate any advice from you all on where to start given the premium package and an M-class Cellar Masters list.  I sail tomorrow!

 

For what it's worth, my beer preferences still tend toward the roasty/malty, though I don't need nearly the level of sweet I used to.  I'm happy with most any stout, porter, brown, or red.  I'm also fond of sours - oddly enough, I happily tolerate quite a lot of hoppy in sours, and particularly enjoy the ones that many others find too reminiscent of vinegar.  

 

Feel free to tell me to delete this if you don't want a beer heathen mucking up your wine thread!  I just figured it was worth a shot!

[zitsky]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

Santa Barbara is south of Monterey. Too fruity for a Pinot Noir (on average). For a US Pinot, I stick to nothing south of Monterey other than by exception. Willamette Valley is probably my favorite, Russian River second, "maybe" Monterey County (which is really Salinas). If you like fruit forward Pinot Noir, then you'll probably like Santa Barbara. But I'd much rather have Burgundy than Central Coast.

 

Yes I know where Santa Barbara is.  😆 

 

Monterey may be technically Central coast but I prefer Paso Robles.  Not a good place for Pinot Noir though.  Better for Zinfandel and Cabernet.

[zitsky]

34 minutes ago, Virga said:

I apologize for the tangent, but you all seem like just the folks to help me with a goal!

 

Background: twenty years ago, I did not drink beer or wine - just didn't like it.  I got a job at an Irish pub with an extensive import and domestic (then rarely called craft, microbrew was more common) beers.  My manager (now my husband) insisted I try each of the hundred brews we carried.  I discovered that there were a couple dozen I rather liked - all ciders, especially the sweet ones but the dry were still enjoyable, most of the wheats, and some sweeter malty brews like english browns and oatmeal stouts.  Many, many years and beers later, I've come to enjoy most beers - the only ones I won't drink in a pinch these days are the especially hoppy IPAs.  I must have a bit of a palate - I can tell you what I like or don't like about a beer - and I love the diversity in the scene, even in styles that are not my 'sessionable' favorites.

 

Unfortunately, I did not manage this for wine.  I'm certain that I could learn to love wine the way I love beer.  Embarrassingly, all I know I enjoy so far are ports and dessert wines - my favorite is 'Quady Essensia Orange Muscat' and I'll drink most any Moscato =/ My next cruise seems like the perfect way to start training myself up!  I'll be asking for pairings at Blu, and hope the staff at Cellar Masters will take some amusement in helping me on my quest.  I'd very much appreciate any advice from you all on where to start given the premium package and an M-class Cellar Masters list.  I sail tomorrow!

 

For what it's worth, my beer preferences still tend toward the roasty/malty, though I don't need nearly the level of sweet I used to.  I'm happy with most any stout, porter, brown, or red.  I'm also fond of sours - oddly enough, I happily tolerate quite a lot of hoppy in sours, and particularly enjoy the ones that many others find too reminiscent of vinegar.  

 

Feel free to tell me to delete this if you don't want a beer heathen mucking up your wine thread!  I just figured it was worth a shot!

 

If you only like sweet wine you should try pairings in Blu.  I'll drink moscato or riesling once in a while but it's good to try other things.  It's simple. Start with non sweet white wine, sauvignon blanc, chardonnay.  Try some red, pinot noir, merlot, cabernet. 

[markeb]

26 minutes ago, Virga said:

I apologize for the tangent, but you all seem like just the folks to help me with a goal!

 

Background: twenty years ago, I did not drink beer or wine - just didn't like it.  I got a job at an Irish pub with an extensive import and domestic (then rarely called craft, microbrew was more common) beers.  My manager (now my husband) insisted I try each of the hundred brews we carried.  I discovered that there were a couple dozen I rather liked - all ciders, especially the sweet ones but the dry were still enjoyable, most of the wheats, and some sweeter malty brews like english browns and oatmeal stouts.  Many, many years and beers later, I've come to enjoy most beers - the only ones I won't drink in a pinch these days are the especially hoppy IPAs.  I must have a bit of a palate - I can tell you what I like or don't like about a beer - and I love the diversity in the scene, even in styles that are not my 'sessionable' favorites.

 

Unfortunately, I did not manage this for wine.  I'm certain that I could learn to love wine the way I love beer.  Embarrassingly, all I know I enjoy so far are ports and dessert wines - my favorite is 'Quady Essensia Orange Muscat' and I'll drink most any Moscato =/ My next cruise seems like the perfect way to start training myself up!  I'll be asking for pairings at Blu, and hope the staff at Cellar Masters will take some amusement in helping me on my quest.  I'd very much appreciate any advice from you all on where to start given the premium package and an M-class Cellar Masters list.  I sail tomorrow!

 

For what it's worth, my beer preferences still tend toward the roasty/malty, though I don't need nearly the level of sweet I used to.  I'm happy with most any stout, porter, brown, or red.  I'm also fond of sours - oddly enough, I happily tolerate quite a lot of hoppy in sours, and particularly enjoy the ones that many others find too reminiscent of vinegar.  

 

Feel free to tell me to delete this if you don't want a beer heathen mucking up your wine thread!  I just figured it was worth a shot!

 

Premium package? Want to stay in the package?

 

It's a hard question to approach, honestly. In a nice landside restaurant with a real sommelier, I'd say follow their advice.

 

A couple of general thoughts. If you're looking at a spicy dish, pick a sweet wine. For instance, there's a German Riesling in the premium package. That should pair well with a Thai or Indian style dish. It's going to be questionable with a lot of plain fish or chicken,. With beef, lamb, or possibly pork, look at the Washington State Merlot or Malbec from Mendoza. I love Pinot Noir, but honestly I'm not impressed with the by the glass choices, and Pinot Noir takes work to appreciate. 

 

Celebrity has some OK Cabernet Sauvignon's by the glass. I'm personally a little ambivalent toward Decoy, but it's a good wine. Caymus is OK; it's primary claim to fame is year to year consistency. The Conundrum red is a nice, inoffensive red from California, from the Wagner family (as is Caymus).

 

I have no experience with the "Elevated" wines; Grgich is a very respected brand, and the 1973 Chateau Montelena Chardonnay crafted by Mike Grgich was the winning Chardonnay in the 1976 "Judgement in Paris" (find the movie "Bottle Shock") where California forcefully announced it's presence to the world's wine scene. So that's one I want to try on principle.

 

The challenge, to me, is that most of the better wines on Celebrity are by the bottle. So you're paying for them. And honestly, good wine, as opposed to a lot of good beer, is best when paired with food. But what you're asking can be done. Just give it some time!

 

And you may like sweet wines, but you may not have had a really good dry wine! I was the opposite!

[markeb]

20 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

Yes I know where Santa Barbara is.  😆 

 

Monterey may be technically Central coast but I prefer Paso Robles.  Not a good place for Pinot Noir though.  Better for Zinfandel and Cabernet.

 

Sorry. That didn't come out right. Paso is kind of my southern limit on a lot of California wine. Unless I really know it. Fine with Amador, Lodi, Livermore, etc. The better wines from all of those just don't get off the winery, so you really have to live in or travel to California to find them.

[BEAV]

On 10/15/2021 at 6:33 AM, Big_G said:

Celebrity is missing the mark here. As a craft beer drinker, Celebrity doesn't have to make craft beer a big thing. Just provide better craft beer options at their current bars.

 

Totally agree.

 

I love decent wines by the glass, but also love my craft beer. 

 

There’s plenty of room for craft beer without having give up on some nice wines. 

[zitsky]

1 minute ago, markeb said:

 

Sorry. That didn't come out right. Paso is kind of my southern limit on a lot of California wine. Unless I really know it. Fine with Amador, Lodi, Livermore, etc. The better wines from all of those just don't get off the winery, so you really have to live in or travel to California to find them.

 

There are some good wines from Lodi but that area is not my favorite.

[markeb]

5 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

There are some good wines from Lodi but that area is not my favorite.

 

We lived in the area for a couple of years, 20(!) years ago. We had some places we really liked, mostly for Zinfandel, of course. But it's been a long time. And a lot of our favorites didn't really get a lot of distribution out of California.

[Virga]

7 hours ago, zitsky said:

 

If you only like sweet wine you should try pairings in Blu.  I'll drink moscato or riesling once in a while but it's good to try other things.  It's simple. Start with non sweet white wine, sauvignon blanc, chardonnay.  Try some red, pinot noir, merlot, cabernet. 

 

That's the basic plan!  Pairings in Blu, chat up the staff in CM, and basically try a little of everything.  Try to take notes, I did that for the beers back in the day.  

 

7 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Premium package? Want to stay in the package?

 

It's a hard question to approach, honestly. In a nice landside restaurant with a real sommelier, I'd say follow their advice.

 

A couple of general thoughts. If you're looking at a spicy dish, pick a sweet wine. For instance, there's a German Riesling in the premium package. That should pair well with a Thai or Indian style dish. It's going to be questionable with a lot of plain fish or chicken,. With beef, lamb, or possibly pork, look at the Washington State Merlot or Malbec from Mendoza. I love Pinot Noir, but honestly I'm not impressed with the by the glass choices, and Pinot Noir takes work to appreciate. 

 

Celebrity has some OK Cabernet Sauvignon's by the glass. I'm personally a little ambivalent toward Decoy, but it's a good wine. Caymus is OK; it's primary claim to fame is year to year consistency. The Conundrum red is a nice, inoffensive red from California, from the Wagner family (as is Caymus).

 

I have no experience with the "Elevated" wines; Grgich is a very respected brand, and the 1973 Chateau Montelena Chardonnay crafted by Mike Grgich was the winning Chardonnay in the 1976 "Judgement in Paris" (find the movie "Bottle Shock") where California forcefully announced it's presence to the world's wine scene. So that's one I want to try on principle.

 

The challenge, to me, is that most of the better wines on Celebrity are by the bottle. So you're paying for them. And honestly, good wine, as opposed to a lot of good beer, is best when paired with food. But what you're asking can be done. Just give it some time!

 

And you may like sweet wines, but you may not have had a really good dry wine! I was the opposite!

 

I'm not opposed to paying the difference per glass, but I'm definitely not interested in purchasing a bottle of something just for a taste test.  Our D&M package comes with a wine tasting, I'm hoping that will be a good experience - though the reviews I've encountered make it sound a little meh.  

 

I've screenshotted your general recommendations, thank you!  I'm certain I've never had a 'really good' wine of any sort.  I've had many generally well received wines, though, and just don't seem to have the palate to appreciate them.  Hopefully it's something that can be learned!

 

[njcanuck]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:33 AM, Big_G said:

Celebrity is missing the mark here. As a craft beer drinker, Celebrity doesn't have to make craft beer a big thing. Just provide better craft beer options at their current bars.

 

10 hours ago, BEAV said:

 

Totally agree.

 

I love decent wines by the glass, but also love my craft beer. 

 

There’s plenty of room for craft beer without having give up on some nice wines. 

 

16 hours ago, canderson said:

I'm  little bummed that the best pinot they could come up with by the glass was Cherry Tart.  At less than $20 retail for a bottle, they have no business charging $14 a glass for it, either.

 

 

I think Celebrity has the same issue for both beer and wine.

10+ years ago I remember being in Blu and every night there was a selection of curated wines by the Sommelier, through the week he got to know our taste and each evening recommended some nice wines.  Celebrity was really pushing the "Best wines at sea" at the time and we got to try some nice variety.

 

As the years went on the selection dwindled and tended to converge to mass produce "Meah" wines.  They are consistent,  available, can be bought by the corporate bean counters in mass quantities but you aren't going to find anything spectacular there.

 

Decoy, Cherry Tart, Kendall Jackson .... are all mass market wines at a modest price point which Celebrity has available at  "What you would pay for a bottle we will  charge for a glass"  pricing.

By moving up even $5 or so in the price point and going to more curated wines they could offer some decent wines, but it would require more skill at both the ship (Sommelier) level and the purchasing level.  You probably wouldn't know from cruise to cruise what is going to be available.

 

For beers they are going down the same route.  I'm glad their beer selection is better than most, but it it is by no way a "Craft" selection of beers.  These are mass market brews which may have had craft roots, but not anymore.   Boston Beer (Sam Adams) stopped being a micro brewery a couple decades ago.  (But Kudo's to them for bringing back the concept that beer could have taste 🙂 ).  Lagunitas sold out to Heineken,  Goose Island is owned by Budweiser, Blue Moon is Miller-Coors, Dogfish Head sold out to Sam Adams.....  

Do I prefer them to Bud/Coors/Miller ....  Sure, but they aren't a craft beer selection.

 

Mass Market wines, Mass market beers.  It is what it is.

 

 

[zitsky]

3 hours ago, Virga said:

 

That's the basic plan!  Pairings in Blu, chat up the staff in CM, and basically try a little of everything.  Try to take notes, I did that for the beers back in the day.  

 

 

I'm not opposed to paying the difference per glass, but I'm definitely not interested in purchasing a bottle of something just for a taste test.  Our D&M package comes with a wine tasting, I'm hoping that will be a good experience - though the reviews I've encountered make it sound a little meh.  

 

I've screenshotted your general recommendations, thank you!  I'm certain I've never had a 'really good' wine of any sort.  I've had many generally well received wines, though, and just don't seem to have the palate to appreciate them.  Hopefully it's something that can be learned!

 

 

If you see Caymus Cabernet (by the glass) it's worth paying extra to try once.  One of the few "special" wines you will see.  A little overpriced by the bottle but a decent wine.

Edited October 30, 2021 by zitsky

[zitsky]

11 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Sorry. That didn't come out right. Paso is kind of my southern limit on a lot of California wine. Unless I really know it. Fine with Amador, Lodi, Livermore, etc. The better wines from all of those just don't get off the winery, so you really have to live in or travel to California to find them.

 

After moving to NC, I joined the Opolo wine club (Paso Robles).  Stopped for 10 years and restarted a year ago.  Just got a shipment of Zinfandel wines (3x2), all from a different part of the winery.  A little too much tobacco for my taste, but my partner seems to like them.

[canderson]

8 minutes ago, zitsky said:

 

If you see Caymus Cabernet it's worth paying extra to try once.  One of the few "special" wines you will see.  A little overpriced by the bottle but a decent wine.

The 'regular' offering and the 'Special Selection' are both in the list, $115 and $195.  The Special Selection is pretty close to retail!  Wonder what's up with that?  X is usually 2.2~2.5x retail.

[zitsky]

11 minutes ago, canderson said:

The 'regular' offering and the 'Special Selection' are both in the list, $115 and $195.  The Special Selection is pretty close to retail!  Wonder what's up with that?  X is usually 2.2~2.5x retail.

 

I think it's still offered by the glass, yes?

[drakes2]

17 hours ago, canderson said:

I'm  little bummed that the best pinot they could come up with by the glass was Cherry Tart.  At less than $20 retail for a bottle, they have no business charging $14 a glass for it, either.

I'd have to agree with you on the cherry tart. I just upgraded to the PBP to try some better wines. Bringing onboard a Francis Ford Coppola Reserve cab which got marked down yesterday so bought 4 bottles  Vintages consultant said they were lucky to get it as normally reserved for wine groups.