Tipping now more important than ever

[Mike981]

6 hours ago, wowzz said:

Well it is a bit anoraky , isn't it ?

 

I learned a new word, thank you.

[JRG]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

The Princess one looks very good c/w others. All thy need to do now is include it in the headline price. 😇

 

But thy cannot do this because different excursions can cost different prices and then thy other customers would be catawalling like thy wounded moose in heat for 'overpaying'.

 

I think this is why your whole idea of bundling thy tipping into the pricetag falls apart under thy scrutiny.

 

 

 

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

But thy cannot do this because different excursions can cost different prices and then thy other customers would be catawalling like thy wounded moose in heat for 'overpaying'.

 

I think this is why your whole idea of bundling thy tipping into the pricetag falls apart under thy scrutiny.

I don't think I ever suggested routinely bundling excursions into the price.

 

I can't see how you reach this conclusion in your second point. As I've said earlier, bundling the drinks/wifi into the equation was tongue in check 😇 as it's obvious some people would want neither, or in my case I would like them, but am not prepared to pay the extortionate price. Also we could do with a little humorous lightening up on the thread.

 

Tipping is different because whether one wants it or not, it is compulsory in all but name. The only difference is that it appears in the brochures and web searches as a £1,000 cruise instead of possible £1,200 cruise that it really is. So often when I search 'tipping' or 'gratuities' on a web search, I see the phrase 'this is one of the most controversial topics etc etc', so why do so many still by it so loyally?

 

People would think it silly if the script said 'The cruise is £1,000, but there is an automatic addition of £10 per person per day for fuel, charged to your account' would they not?

Edited March 5, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[Toofarfromthesea]

18 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Kind of funny, but I can't remember that I've ever been asked for a tip in the US either.  I've certainly never had anyone stick their hand out for tip.    In fact, I've only had that happen once in all my travels and I won't even say which country because it was rude and not representative.    

 

Where it is very common for the "tips are appreciated" comments to be heard is on the large group tours with a tour guide and driver.     

 

 

 

Maybe our non-American friends get asked for a tip when in the US because the workers are familiar with their reluctance to tip.  They don't have to ask Americans because by and large we tip without being asked.

[Toofarfromthesea]

17 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

Your first question sums up my point. It is promoted as being voluntary so if it is truly voluntary there should be no shame or need to justify removing it. You are expected to pay it and not doing so is considered a social abnormality therefore the way I perceive it the voluntary concept of the payment is a deception. It gives the customer the illusion they have control but really they don't unless they are willing to accept social stigmatisation. That is why I prefer the DSC to be a mandatory fee rather than you have a choice but.... payment😂. Cruise lines obviously want you to pay it and I think making it a mandatory fee is better than emotionally manipulating passengers into paying it. You don't see as many threads complaining about fees😜. 

 

No, it is NOT promoted as voluntary.  Many new cruisers don't even know they can be removed. I've never seen any promotional material from a cruiselines trumpeting, "Andvremember, gratuities are voluntary!" But I think the cruiselines are pretty clear that they are expected to be paid unless the service was substandard, not removed because "I don't tip".  And if you really believe you are justified there should be no social stigma. 

 

It's like the old story.  "Mommy, Joey said I am ugly", "Are you ugly?", "No", "Then why do you care what Joey says?" 

 

It is even moreso in the tipping case, since you don't even really know Joey, or expect to see him again.  If you don't tip in a restaurant and an ill-mannered waiter calls you cheap that is not social stigma.  Unless in your heart you know he is right.  Same with cruise tips, except there the tip withholding is done without the affected employees even knowing it.  So where does this social stigma come from?  A message board?  Or maybe from your own head because you know you've done the wrong thing to someone who rightfully deserved better from you.

 

I'd bet a thousand pounds that you've never walked down the street in London and heard a little girl say, "Mummy, Mummy, isn't that the chap who removed the tips on his cruise?"

Edited March 5, 2022 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

8 hours ago, KBs mum said:

The problem with the suggested gratuities on ships is that nobody outside the hotel staff know how, or even if, they are distributed amongst the staff. 

Are they part of standard expected income? 

A nice bonus? 

Kept by the company? 

 

The answers are not easily available to the passenger, making a considered decision on whether to pay it or not impossible. Some would prefer to tip individually if it is a bonus. Most wouldn't pay it if it went to the company. Most pay it in case not doing so would result in a pay cut for staff. 

 

Makes the whole concept a bit dubious. 

 

Were those goalposts you just shifted heavy?

Edited March 5, 2022 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

I guess it's just what they feel they can get away with. For example for an excursion on St Kitts on the Azamara cruise I was due to be flying out to today, the actual excursion was ECD120 or about £33pp. The cruise was charging £87pp for which th customer was getting nothing more than a 3 mile shuttle to the railway station.

 

The Princess one looks very good c/w others. All thy need to do now is include it in the headline price. 😇

 

What does the cost of excursions have to do with Wow's questioning your statements about the cost of drinks and wifi onboard?  And why would a cruiseline include the cost of drinks and wifi packages in the headline price when many people neither want nor purchase them?

[Toofarfromthesea]

5 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I have an online map that I record trips on. I just find it a good way to remember where I have been also it is interesting to see the trail I have charted around the globe and some of the stats the online map generates I think is fun. 

 

But counting up the number of countries you've been in to use in an inconsequential argument on the internet is a little . . . . strange.

[Toofarfromthesea]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

People would think it silly if the script said 'The cruise is £1,000, but there is an automatic addition of £10 per person per day for fuel, charged to your account' would they not?

 

Obviously you weren't cruising in the days when price volatility could cause there to be fuel surcharges.  

[KBs mum]

30 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Maybe our non-American friends get asked for a tip when in the US because the workers are familiar with their reluctance to tip.  They don't have to ask Americans because by and large we tip without being asked.

It's not a reluctance to tip, it's the fact that routine tipping is unknown in many cultures, and the amounts are unwritten rules. If the menu said x% will be added, or it was just included in the price there would be no confusion. The visitor would not accidentally reduce the person's income. If aware of the 'rules' most will comply with them. Of course if tipping is voluntary it doesn't matter if the customer doesn't tip, perhaps they thought the service bad. 

Also some jobs exist in the US that may not exist in the country the person is from, such as a separate person to buss tables. 

To turn it around, somebody from the US wouldn't necessarily know that in some countries a tip may be an insult. 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

People would think it silly if the script said 'The cruise is £1,000, but there is an automatic addition of £10 per person per day for fuel, charged to your account' would they not?

LOL, if you look at your cruise contract, you will see that it allows for a fuel surcharge once the price of oil goes past a certain point. And it is now way, way over that point. Many of the forums for individual cruise lines now have a topic of do you think they will do a fuel surcharge.

 

Here is one for example:

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by ontheweb
added example

[KBs mum]

19 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

We're those goalposts you just shifted heavy?

I haven't shifted any goalposts, this is an aspect of the gratuities that I've alluded to before, but not previously mentioned in a post of their own. 

Playing the man, not the ball suggests you don't have any other way of winning other than to hack about in midfield

[KBs mum]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

LOL, if you look at your cruise contract, you will see that it allows for a fuel surcharge once the price of oil goes past a certain point. And it is now way, way over that point. Many of the forums for individual cruise lines now have a topic of do you think they will do a fuel surcharge.

Mine doesn't, it specifically says the price is fixed. In fact the prices are fixed for two years out

[KBs mum]

20 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

But counting up the number of countries you've been in to use in an inconsequential argument on the internet is a little . . . . strange.

The old quote out of context ploy, unless the argument you refer to is 'what constitutes anorakness?' 😂

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Maybe our non-American friends get asked for a tip when in the US because the workers are familiar with their reluctance to tip.  They don't have to ask Americans because by and large we tip without being asked.

 

Sure, maybe.  Maybe if those travelers followed local custom, this would not be an issue.   

 

 

 

  

[KBs mum]

7 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Sure, maybe.  Maybe if those travelers followed local custom, this would not be an issue.   

 

 

 

  

A valid point, however when last in the US I checked what the expected tip in a large city should be, by asking a few customers in a couple of places and staff (they all agreed with each other) I mentioned this amount on another tip thread, and was told the information I had was now out of date and I should tip more. 

If not for a chance conversation I would have undertipped on next visit, not something I want to do as I know that some in the US rely on tips to make ends meet. (The fact that some establishments pay 'no tip needed' wages adds to the confusion). I consider asking locals and staff within the last few years to be reasonable due diligence. 

By contrast in the UK tipping happens but doesn't form part of expected income, tipping, or not is equally OK. 

 

Just factor it all into the price quoted and all concerned know where they are, and the visitor will hand over the correct amount. 

[slidergirl]

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

 

There is a difference between being asked to tip and whether tipping is actually the culture. The reality is tour guides are willing to try to take advantage of naive tourists and there is a perception that cruise passengers are particularly naive travellers. If you want to know the tipping norms for tours the tour guide is generally the worst source😂. 

Sounds like a good reason to not do tours.   Like some others, I have not been asked nor pressured for a tip anywhere I've traveled.  

[Mike981]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

It's like the old story.  "Mommy, Joey said I am ugly", "Are you ugly?", "No", "Then why do you care what Joey says?" 

 

 

You reminded me of one of my moms favorite jokes.

"Mommy, mommy I'm getting dizzy! Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

 

Yah, I come from strange stock.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Mike981 said:

 

You reminded me of one of my moms favorite jokes.

"Mommy, mommy I'm getting dizzy! Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

 

Yah, I come from strange stock.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Fish swims into a wall. Damn

[Peter Lanky]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

What does the cost of excursions have to do with Wow's questioning your statements about the cost of drinks and wifi onboard?  And why would a cruiseline include the cost of drinks and wifi packages in the headline price when many people neither want nor purchase them?

 

The excursion issue was cruise lines trying on what they could get away with. I have already addressed the second part.

 

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Obviously you weren't cruising in the days when price volatility could cause there to be fuel surcharges.  

 

Quite correct, I am cruising now, not then (or trying to). It was no doubt a one-off though, rather than a compulsory charge right from the beginning, that was 99% non negotiable.

2 hours ago, slidergirl said:

Sounds like a good reason to not do tours.   Like some others, I have not been asked nor pressured for a tip anywhere I've traveled.  

 

Just because you have not been personally pressured does not mean that others have not been. We can't avoid every kind of travel just in case some completely unreasonable consequence arises that we hadn't factored in turns up.

[wowzz]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

But counting up the number of countries you've been in to use in an inconsequential argument on the internet is a little . . . . strange.

Absolutely, especially as just spending 6 hours in a country counts as a tick on the list !

[wowzz]

6 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

I learned a new word, thank you.

Just a bit of background information. 

In the UK ,back in the day, certain individuals, almost entirely men, would congregate on railway platforms,  and record engine numbers in notebooks.  Why ? Who knows? 

These individuals would always wear anoraks, well before they became accepted (blame Oasis), hence the derogatory term  "anorak" or adjective "anoraky".

[slidergirl]

7 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

The excursion issue was cruise lines trying on what they could get away with. I have already addressed the second part.

 

 

Quite correct, I am cruising now, not then (or trying to). It was no doubt a one-off though, rather than a compulsory charge right from the beginning, that was 99% non negotiable.

 

Just because you have not been personally pressured does not mean that others have not been. We can't avoid every kind of travel just in case some completely unreasonable consequence arises that we hadn't factored in turns up.

I only do tours when 1)it is mandatory for something I want to see/do or 2)it is a trip I would not want to so do solo (Egypt and Jordan and a Kenyan safari).  Otherwise, I'm DIY.   I haven't run into any unfactored consequences yet in 40 years of travel.  But, I'm just one anecdotal point in a plethora of others. 

[wowzz]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Just because you have not been personally pressured does not mean that others have not been.

You are just trying to ignore the experience of everyone here. 

You are so anxious to believe you are right,  you just ignore the real world experiences of everyone else. 

[Hlitner]

35 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

I only do tours when 1)it is mandatory for something I want to see/do or 2)it is a trip I would not want to so do solo (Egypt and Jordan and a Kenyan safari).  Otherwise, I'm DIY.   I haven't run into any unfactored consequences yet in 40 years of travel.  But, I'm just one anecdotal point in a plethora of others. 

We have a very similar philosophy.  We only do cruise line excursions if there is no reasonable way we can achieve our goals on our own or possibly with a very small group private tour.  I used to joke that "tour" is a 4 letter word I avoid.   To DW and I, being stuck on a typical bus-load cruise excursion (or any bus excursion) is a fate best left to our enemies 🙂   But we have met many cruisers who do not even like walking off a ship (anywhere) unless they are part of a cruise line excursion.  One nice thing about cruises is folks can usually make their choices and everyone is happy.

 

When DW and I went to Egypt (we flew over there for a 2 week visit that took us throughout the country) we did it on our own with the help of a small tour company.  When needed, we had our own guide (and driver) for just the two of us and it was actually about the same price as the cheapest tours.  Because we were traveling by ourselves we were able to see things (such as a very weird Monastery) that was not open to larger tours.  We went to the Great Pyramids at 9am (with a guide) and were truly the only people at those ruins (other then the security folks).  I still have a picture of our car in the huge parking lot....we were the only car.  When we left a couple of hours later the large tours had arrived and it was not pretty.

 

Hank

 

Hank