Carnival Corp In Talks To Sell Seabourn

[Hanoverian]

Perhaps these two articles from "Seatrade Cruise News" might be of interest to some.

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudi-appoints-lars-clasen-ceo

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudis-ghassan-khan-journey-so-far-and-next-steps

 

 

[Robisan]

5 hours ago, Hanoverian said:

Perhaps these two articles from "Seatrade Cruise News" might be of interest to some.

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudi-appoints-lars-clasen-ceo

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudis-ghassan-khan-journey-so-far-and-next-steps

 

 

"We want to give the cruise lines the best possible authentic experience..."

 

Would be very interested in his definition of an "authentic (Saudi) experience."  

[ssawjo]

You all do realize that you could never get to Mecca if you are not Muslim? Medina may be off limits also, not sure.  Also, no alcohol at all and don't bring your bible or other religious symbols.  Saudi Arabia, while fascinating, is very restrictive and very wary of outsiders, especially Christians and Jews.  There are stories about Arabs on Saudi Airlines, especially women, that once the plane leaves Saudi air space, rush to the lavatories to change from their required garb to much more western attire.  I doubt if alcohol is served on the planes.  Another thing to consider is Ramadan.  DON'T ever visit the Middle East during Ramadan.  Restaurants are not open until sundown and then are very crowded.  Most of this is from personal experience.  

 

There are or were direct flights from IAD to Riyadh.  Not sure of their "luxury" aspects.  

 

 

[frantic36]

3 hours ago, ssawjo said:

You all do realize that you could never get to Mecca if you are not Muslim? Medina may be off limits also, not sure.  Also, no alcohol at all and don't bring your bible or other religious symbols.  Saudi Arabia, while fascinating, is very restrictive and very wary of outsiders, especially Christians and Jews.  There are stories about Arabs on Saudi Airlines, especially women, that once the plane leaves Saudi air space, rush to the lavatories to change from their required garb to much more western attire.  I doubt if alcohol is served on the planes.  Another thing to consider is Ramadan.  DON'T ever visit the Middle East during Ramadan.  Restaurants are not open until sundown and then are very crowded.  Most of this is from personal experience.  

 

There are or were direct flights from IAD to Riyadh.  Not sure of their "luxury" aspects.  

 

 

 

"Bill Gates (through Cascade Investment) and Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (through Kingdom Holding Company) have been majority owners of the company."

 

This is for over 100 resorts and hotels of The Four Seasons Hotel Group, with the Saudi group owning the majority share until a few months ago but Bill Gates has now bought the majority. I do not remember any discussion that they banned alcohol or imposed religious ideology in any of these places. Why would a cruise line be any different to Resorts or a hotel?

 

The Four Seasons has been considered a luxury brand for years.

[rucrazy]

Speculation can be fun, but nothing is done until Kate Smith steps up to the microphone.

[highplanesdrifters]

1 hour ago, rucrazy said:

Speculation can be fun, but nothing is done until Kate Smith steps up to the microphone.

Might have to steal that line. 😀

[ssawjo]

17 hours ago, frantic36 said:

 

"Bill Gates (through Cascade Investment) and Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (through Kingdom Holding Company) have been majority owners of the company."

 

This is for over 100 resorts and hotels of The Four Seasons Hotel Group, with the Saudi group owning the majority share until a few months ago but Bill Gates has now bought the majority. I do not remember any discussion that they banned alcohol or imposed religious ideology in any of these places. Why would a cruise line be any different to Resorts or a hotel?

 

The Four Seasons has been considered a luxury brand for years.

Your response missed the point.  If cruise ships go to designated ports, then you have to be very aware of the cultural aspects of Saudi Arabia if you decide to get off the ship and visit the area.  They may not allow anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport to visit.  (I think the Israelis don't stamp passports for that reason.) Just because Arabs own a piece of a western corporation means nothing.  Gates and the Prince don't give a hoot about alcohol or religion at a Four Seasons Resort in say Europe or the US.  It is for profit only and booze is a big contributor to their profit margin.  

[markham]

Well, if Seabourn is more of a Four Seasons than a Carnival/HAL/Princess "underinvested" line, and there are cruises to ports other than Saudi Arabian ones and/or there are carve outs established to assure everyone when they happen to visit a couple of Saudi ports with of the treatment they get elsewhere, there would be nothing I can foresee that cancels out a Seabourn cruise under new management for me.

 

Let's not get all negative and anxious until or unless we know a lot more.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

 

[commodoredave]

On 5/25/2022 at 11:04 AM, FlyerTalker said:

'

Yes it is.

 

You either patronize a business or you don't.  And rationalizing that a cruise is somehow a "different" purchase than staying at a hotel (or the like), is sophistry.

 

And since you "keep up with these things", I wonder if you have boycotted their other investments, or are just trying to make this a cause celebre?

I was against what you were saying until you used the word "sophistry". Anyone who references a teacher from ancient Greece is far too smart to disagree with! 🤗

[commodoredave]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:05 PM, markham said:

SLSD, I understand where you are coming from, and we all have to think through what the ownership change may mean broadly. But we don’t know what the new owner’s intentions may be and that knowledge is needed to take an initial, informed view on the whole thing.

I imagine that this transaction will involve an ownership change and one that will evolve as the brand becomes valuable. That might mean that the Fund will reduce its share. I doubt that the Fund will have sole ownership responsibility (if it ever does) for long. This is probably an interim step to save the line and build value. As I mentioned earlier, the Fund is not in the business of cruise line operations,. It is only interested in creating and retaining value. 
 

And back to Carnival, we don’t know who the bond holders are now, and they may well include a lot of names with big investments that one might not care for. It has not made a difference to me. But I do wish the brand well, and as long as its superb crew retain and enhance their work prospects, we have a positive outcome - alongside our opportunity to cruise. No one wants a repeat of the poor performance via private equity purchase of Crystal which is another story. 
 

So we have to wait and see what comes out of this investment. If the Fund is primarily managing this as a financial opportunity - restructuring it and then selling it to a major cruise operator (that are now unable to do this themselves) - then I have no issues. However, if the Saudi state intends to operate Seabourn on a long term basis with their own management team and board of directors that  would likely create issues for me and probably many other veteran cruisers. Which begs the question as to why the Fund wouldn’t realize, accept and avoid making taking that stance.

That’s it for now. 
 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

 

 

 

Well said, Markham! I agree 100%.

[rkacruiser]

Maybe Seabourn gets sold, but the ships remain managed by CCL?  CCL would get an infusion of cash and, I would expect, a management fee from the owner.  

 

4 hours ago, markham said:

I can foresee that cancels out a Seabourn cruise under new management for me.

 

Let's not get all negative and anxious until or unless we know a lot more.

 

Agree.  We can only speculate.  

[LMB01]

2 hours ago, commodoredave said:

I was against what you were saying until you used the word "sophistry". Anyone who references a teacher from ancient Greece is far too smart to disagree with! 🤗

Seriously?

[MBP&O2/O]

20 hours ago, ssawjo said:

Your response missed the point.  If cruise ships go to designated ports, then you have to be very aware of the cultural aspects of Saudi Arabia if you decide to get off the ship and visit the area.  They may not allow anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport to visit.  (I think the Israelis don't stamp passports for that reason.)

I went to Jeddah once and we weren't allowed off the ship for 'cultural reasons' ...... a high profile public execution.

I also managed a Rhodesian  stamp in my passport which could have stopped me entering certain African countries.

We also used to load fruit cargoes from South Africa to Saudi ... Saudi would not trade with South Africa so all the boxes were stamped 'Product of Botswana'. We then stopped at Mozambique, dropped the anchor, changed the deck log book, and then officially  sailed from a non South African country.

The politically expedient Way and Means Act, and nothing to do with two faced burocracy! 

[alainciao]

I followed a recent Silversea thread where the ship visited Jedda.  No alcohol for 3 days.

[lincslady]

Yes, surely the worst aspect of this possible/probable takeover is that Cruise Saudi have stated that they want ships to be based in their ports, and have three which are prepared to receive ships.

 

I can't imagine many westerners wanting to cruise some or most of the time in this area, regardless of whether alcohol will be allowed on board.

[cruiseej]

56 minutes ago, lincslady said:

Yes, surely the worst aspect of this possible/probable takeover is that Cruise Saudi have stated that they want ships to be based in their ports, and have three which are prepared to receive ships.

 

While I agree that Cruise Saudi, the tourism organization devoted to cruising, has been building up their ports and tourism infrastructure, I'm not sure that's a reason for the Saudi Public Investment Fund (which is separate) would buy Seabourn. Are these the most attractive ships available (at a time when many cruise lines are looking to trim their holdings), and best suited for Saudi cruises? Surely not the two newest ships, which are built for expeditions and especially polar cruising. 

 

Again, this is all speculation, but I'd think if the PIF were to buy Seabourn, at the likely high valuation it would have, they would want to keep it running as (some version of) Seabourn. The ships are valuable, but so is the brand and the customer base. I'm not sure it would pay for them to buy the ships just for the ships while discarding the brand and customers. If they just want ships, there are Crystal ships which are doubtless available for a lower cost.

[FlyerTalker]

2 hours ago, alainciao said:

I followed a recent Silversea thread where the ship visited Jedda.  No alcohol for 3 days.

 

Had a SS cruise a while back that made stops in Libya.  All the booze in public areas was locked up.  However, the ship offered to stock your own cabin with wine and spirits and you could drink to your heart's content in the room.  And dinners by room service, so you could have your wine with dinner.  They took regular waiters and moved them to room service duty, so there was plenty of staff to handle the change.  Turned out to be a nothing-burger, and gave folks something to talk about and remember.

[Utopia1]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:39 AM, Hanoverian said:

Perhaps these two articles from "Seatrade Cruise News" might be of interest to some.

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudi-appoints-lars-clasen-ceo

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/people-opinions/cruise-saudis-ghassan-khan-journey-so-far-and-next-steps

 

 

The articles are very interesting--  thank you 

[Hlitner]

I will avoid the political issues as, at the moment, I look at this topic as a financial issue.  The PIF fund (and possibly other Saudi financial interests) are already invested in the 3 major US cruise corporations through PIF (they own over 5.8% of CCL) and some major hedge funds which also own stock (and likely bonds) of CCL.  In investment terms, the Saudi PIF fund is likely looking to simply protect it's investment by working a deal (buying Seabourn) to infuse cash/liquidity into CCL.  Some would call this chasing bad money with good, but in the financial world it is quite common for major investors to essentially double down in troubled times by increasing their investment.  

 

As to what happens to SB under new ownership we agree with the posters that avoid that issue since all we can do is speculate.  In practical terms it might not result in any change if the new ownership interests simply contract with CCL to handle day to day operations.  On the other extreme end of the curve, trying to encourage folks to spend their tourist dollars in Saudi is going to meet with some resistance and may not be helpful for SB.  The alcohol issue (in Saudi waters and airspace) is currently part of the laws of that Kingdom.  Convincing some cruisers to cruise on a ship where the bars would be shut-down for a few days might be a problem.

 

Hank

[Utopia1]

The talk about visiting ports in Saudi Arabia is interesting, but not really important when you realize a few things-  1-The choice of which cruise you take is determined by the itinerary YOU like    2- Seabourn has been sailing to the Maldives in the past (and is on their itinerary for the 2024 WC)  The Maldives is also under Sharia law.  Liquor IS served in the all inclusive hotels where food and alcohol is included even though  consumption is forbidden anywhere else-- as is the sale of alcohol.

 

The talk of the Seabourn sale should be the continuation of the services that we have enjoyed  .  I care more that the purchaser have deep pockets and improving  Seabourn..

 

I do not see the sale of Seabourn as a way to bring the Saudi culture on the ship, but rather as a business investment.

I have sailed to many countries where I disagree with their politics, but visiting on a cruise gave me a first hand exposure to see what I have read about without spending much time or money there. 

 

 

 

 

[ssawjo]

But then again, if someone loves cruising but wants to stay off of the sauce, then a Saudi cruise would be right up your alley.  LOL

[MBP&O2/O]

3 hours ago, cruiseej said:

Again, this is all speculation, but I'd think if the PIF were to buy Seabourn, at the likely high valuation it would have, they would want to keep it running as (some version of) Seabourn. The ships are valuable, but so is the brand and the customer base. I'm not sure it would pay for them to buy the ships just for the ships while discarding the brand and customers. If they just want ships, there are Crystal ships which are doubtless available for a lower cost.

When I worked for P&O we had several ships that were owned by a New Zealand company, who chartered the ships to a Norwegian company who managed them, but they were crewed and run by P&O. All baffling but it shows how someone can own a ship and have no practical input as to how it is run/managed etc.

[markham]

Mr L,

 

I am humbled by your confidence in my past performance. Yes, like many other Diamond Elite members, I am on the “Seabourn Advisory Board” and like to think that I have served the faithful well. That said, the fact that it has NEVER held a meeting does diminish my boasting… Never mind ‘bout that, then.

 

Anyway, about your esteemed position as one of us, please clarify what the perks will be for me as Chairman. On board credit, flowing superior revenue list champagne, spa vouchers and/or the greatest prize of all, my own reserved cabana in The Retreat? You know,  to avoid any of those pesky, irritating minority shareholders who are, like, way too demanding, if you know what I mean. For sure I can do the job better than the nincompoop who came up with the Retreat idea and made it a thing in the first place. So I’ll need to test it out for a few months of cruising to determine its fate. Maybe redo it as a “cultural center”. And I’ll stay in a corner Spa Suite, the designated new Chairman’s Office. With special order meals daily.

 

I look forward to apprising how the Board itself will be staffed once the shareholders elect us. Assuming the Fund is the sole shareholder we are all set. That way we won’t have any noise. Right now I am not at liberty to disclose whether or not any/all of its directors are my relatives. Believe me, there shouldn’t be any conflict of interest for majority interest shareholders to fret over… But then there may be bond holders to contend with…

In summary, I foresee smooth seas ahead and even smoother sailing. With this fresh start I expect those guest valuations will surely all rank our line as 10/10. Somehow.

Please do get back to me.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by markham

[cruiseej]

7 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

Had a SS cruise a while back that made stops in Libya.  All the booze in public areas was locked up.  However, the ship offered to stock your own cabin with wine and spirits and you could drink to your heart's content in the room.

 

On the SS cruise with three days in Saudi Arabia, passengers reported that ALL alcohol was locked up and open bottles, sadly, poured out. Alcohol was not allowed in suites; it was truly a "dry" cruise until the ship left Saudi waters. 

 

(But as noted by others here, potential Saudi ownership does not necessarily equate to new operating standards as if the ships were operating in Saudi Arabia.)

[Mr Luxury]

Dear Mr Chairman,

Thank you for gracing us all with your elite slant on our predicament.

Firstly you will receive no recompense for the role but as Finance director I can offer you on top of your elite perks.

A manicure and pedicure every seven days sailed.One bondage session per fourteen days sailed,also you get to stand in for the Captain to host a dinner every seven days as it does get tedious talking to guests.

You'll be pleased to know that I am proposing to the board that the Retreat should become a tattoo and piercing parlour as I know that you have a keen interest in both.

AOB