Just got off the Oosterdam in Venice and my wife had Covid on the cruise, it has become a nightmare

[cruisequeen4ever]

I’m very sorry your wife has Covid. Thank goodness she has a mild case. It doesn’t seem like your situation is unique to HAL; I’ve read accounts on other cruise lines, too. It seems like the cruise lines are trying to walk a fine line between trying to attract pax and reducing the spread of Covid onboard. They make one set of pax happy and upset another group. 
 

I do hope you don’t try to get the HAL rep fired as I really do think she’s probably just following protocol for the company to inform you of your right to fly home. I’m sure it’s meant to provide freedom to the spouse who needs to get home to take care of the kids or get back to work. 
 

I hope you stay Covid-free, that your wife heals quickly,  and that everything goes smoothly to get you and your wife home in Business Class at the end of the quarantine!

[Skorpora]

6 hours ago, terrydtx said:

For us HAL had to notify the Italian Health authorities about my wife positive covid test and 5 day quarantine on the ship. We were told that her passport way flagged and that we could not leave Italy until she had a negative test and the Italians released her.  If I had been in Vancouver I would have just gone to the airport and flown home. The Sheraton here is charging only about $130 per night.  

Let me tell you about my covid experience in Italy.  I was not on a cruise, but on a land vacation when I got Covid in August.  Tour company had me do an "official" test with the Italian Authorities. My passport was supposedly flagged.  I was never contacted by the Italian Health Authorities, and just quarantined in the Venice hotel I was already staying in. I was booked there for 7 days. The night before my booked flight home, I did my own self test with a test I brought from home, and it was negative. I decided to take my chances, and went to the airport to see if they would allow me to fly. Checked in, passport checked, and... not a word about my covid diagnosis. I flew home. Easy. Now, if I was still testing positive, I wouldn't have tried this. This is just my personal experience, so it may not work this way for someone else. Best of luck with your situation.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

What does it matter how or where covid was picked up.  Is that not a little beside the point?  

 

It could have been transmitted by any fellow passenger, crew member, or from the public whist on shore.  

 

The real issue here is the OP's description of the environment on the ship and how the cruise line did next to nothing to assist. 

 

Worse still, they suggested to the cruiser that he fly home and leave his spouse quarantine in Italy.  And that 'assistance' apparently  only came after multiple calls to HAL.  

 

Seems to me the cruise line 'dumped' them and the problem on someone else.

 

Fortunately the OP did not book direct.  He was eventually  able to have his TA go to bat for him. 

 

Is HAL a 9-5 PST business hours only operation, except during weekends and holidays?  Or are they a 24X7 organization that is always there for their customers?  Appears to be the former.

 

Cannot imagine anyone on this forum wanting to go through a similar experience.

 

 

For all that one might sympathize with  the OP.  His story is really not any different than has been described by others on different cruise lines.  HAL and the other lines have said that they would pay for the expenses related to a person having to quarantine.  In this case it appears that his wife's expenses are being covered, though as of this time they have not yet been submitted.  It does appear that they are providing the flights home after she tests negative.  

 

So the biggest issue seems to be that the cruise line said that they would set up testing and that was not done.  That is similar to reports of others from various cruise lines that transfer of passengers to shore hotels can be handled better.  At least HAL did find a hotel where as others have reported that they were on their own for shore transportation and finding their own hotel to quarantine in.

 

AS uncomfortable as it is, the decision of if the person testing negative stays or goes home is really a personal choice. It must be made with the understanding that that persons expenses during the quarantine period will not be covered.  The OP made his choice. Now he pointed out rather strongly the comment from the HAL customer service person that he could fly home.  What we do not have is both sides of that conversation.  I could see a customer service person giving that answer if someone was complaining to them that the cruise line should cover their expenses as well.  Because basically that is the two choices  stay at their own expense or fly home.  The choice is theirs.

 

Reality is that at this time, with all of the cruise lines, the best one can hope for if they have to quarantine off ship the process will in many cases not be smooth and reimbursement will be limited to what is stated in written policy. 

 

With the changes in policies I expect that cruise line coverage of off ship quarantine will probably be ending sometime in the next 6 months or so.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by ldtr

[Don Kehote]

Know where I stopped having any sympathy at all?

12 hours ago, terrydtx said:

When Covid is no worse than a head cold or mild case of flu, why have forced isolation and quarantine when it is not done for colds, the flu or other illnesses?  We need to all learn to live with covid like we do with the seasonal flu and colds.

[AFNavigator]

4 hours ago, colin v said:

Given it’s an airborne disease….makes sense. Apologies if I missed it but what was your masking situation?  Most COVID posts seem to suggest 100% usage yet they still catch COVID. 

Yes, COVID is more of an airborne disease versus the initial thought that it was primarily contact based.  Good sanitation and glove wear, for those who choose to, can be pretty effective against the contact based viruses though.  Think of all the handrails, elevator buttons, door handles, seatbacks, and other public surfaces that you might touch in a cruise day.

[cowmilker]

7 hours ago, terrydtx said:

Every time we passed a hand sanitizer station we used it on the ship, but some were even empty, and still got covid. We had a supple of wipes with us and wiped down tables and still got covid.

It's airborne, folks.  AIRBORNE.  It's not spread by fomites (touching stuff).

They thought it was at first and that's why we were all wiping down mail and groceries and worrying over touching things in the stores.  

While fomite spread is theoretically possible, it's unlikely. The much, much more likely source is simply standing next to a positive person and breathing the same air.  That's because the virus simply does not survive well on surfaces.  Yes, you can find studies where they isolated Covid virus from surfaces umpteen hours after exposure, BUT those studies don't show that the virus recovered was viable or able to infect anyone.

Norovirus is different. That's why I'm a huge fan of having no self service in the Lido, and I am a hand washer of almost epic proportions. 

When it comes to Covid, though, I put on a really good mask.

[terrydtx]

6 hours ago, Roz said:

I don't understand the 5 day quarantine on the ship and then 10 days on land.  Isn't that excessive?  At work we only have to stay home for 5 days after testing positive.

I never said 10 days on land, it is a total 7 days, 5  on the ship and 2 on land.

[terrydtx]

6 hours ago, Caribbean Chris said:

You would have flown knowing your wife tested positive if you hadn’t been in Italy with stricter regulations and controls? 

No, I would never fly home without my wife.  

[PACD_JG]

19 hours ago, terrydtx said:

My wife has not had any symptoms more than a head cold and is doing well, but we just want to get home.

14 hours ago, terrydtx said:

I agree 100% and there are 6 others here is the hotel that I have talked to, and they all had nothing worse than a mild cold but reported being sick to the ships medical. We were all vaccinated and boosted at least once which may be why they and my wife never got very sick. I fully believe that the cruise industry should never drop any vaccination and booster requirements to get on a cruise ship, our experience has shown that to still be needed.

 

 

Still never answered - why did you test in the first place?  

[terrydtx]

5 minutes ago, PACD_JG said:

 

Still never answered - why did you test in the first place?  

Because we followed the rules on the ship. My wife woke up on the 31st with a bad cough and we used one of the home test we brought with us and she tested positive.  So we notified the ships medical and they confirmed the test was positive and I was negative. I am sure every one of the many others in the ship quarantine wards did the same.

[terrydtx]

1 hour ago, cowmilker said:

It's airborne, folks.  AIRBORNE.  It's not spread by fomites (touching stuff).

They thought it was at first and that's why we were all wiping down mail and groceries and worrying over touching things in the stores.  

While fomite spread is theoretically possible, it's unlikely. The much, much more likely source is simply standing next to a positive person and breathing the same air.  That's because the virus simply does not survive well on surfaces.  Yes, you can find studies where they isolated Covid virus from surfaces umpteen hours after exposure, BUT those studies don't show that the virus recovered was viable or able to infect anyone.

Norovirus is different. That's why I'm a huge fan of having no self service in the Lido, and I am a hand washer of almost epic proportions. 

When it comes to Covid, though, I put on a really good mask.

That may be true, and there are recent studies that show that, but also do not eliminate surface transmission 100%. You are more likely to get it by airborne but surface touching is still a small possibility of transmission. If an infected person sneezes or coughs on the rolls or the serving tongs just before you take the rolls or touch the tongs you have still a good chance of getting sick. I have always been a firm believer that all cruise ship buffets should never have any self-serve venues.

[terrydtx]

8 hours ago, Sunseeker810 said:

Sadly, I think that your chances of getting COVID on a cruise ship is very high.  I was on the Boston to Bermuda NCL Pearl and came home with it.  So did my sister-in-law who came with me.  Who know how many others?  They don't tell you that!

After my experiences, I have to agree. We have gone over 2 years and been lucky enough to not get infected and we led a pretty much normal life and did two prior cruises.  My brother-in-law (who was with us on this cruise) got covid on the NCL Pride of America in June in Hawaii, the day of disembarkation he got a mild cough. He flew home not knowing he had it and got very sick and needed an infusion of Monoclonal antibodies to get over Covid. This was his first encounter with covid, and it was a rough time for him.

[NavyCruiser]

OP's statement:
"When Covid is no worse than a head cold or mild case of flu, why have forced isolation and quarantine when it is not done for colds, the flu or other illnesses?  We need to all learn to live with covid like we do with the seasonal flu and colds..."

I agree.

In our 30+ cruises & 100+ flights & vacations over the past 35 years, we've observed thousands of disgusting people with nasty unhygienic habits onboard planes, trains, & cruise ships.  There were also numerous same disgusting people on our past 3 cruises & 4 vacations post-covid.  So I'll assume there'll also be thousands of the same people in our future upcoming 3 cruises.

I'm sure we've caught hundreds of illnesses on our previous travel from people with colds, flus, mers, sars, swine/chicken flus...etc.

What did we do before?  Popped a couple of pills, rest & stayed away from other people.

We both have our 4 shots & not worried about catching covid, since we've lived normal life over past 2 years & haven't had any symptoms, whether we've caught it or not, but more worried about testing positive & being treated like this OP's experience by the cruise lines & foreign authorities.

[terrydtx]

This thread has gone off course, I never intended it to be about how and why Covid is transmitted or how and where my wife contracted the virus, that all doesn't matter. We knew the risks and accepted them but never knew how deplorably we would be treated by HAL, when and if we got covid. The facts are my wife got Covid we did the right thing and followed the rules by reporting it to the ship's medical officer, at that time we had no idea how sick my wife might get and then how poorly HAL would treat us going forward. Fortunately, my wife never got very sick but HAL dumped us at the port and forgot about us, lied to us and fed us a bunch of misinformation to make us all go away. 

 

If I had not had a great TA back home, we would still be in limbo here in Venice. My two hours on the phone with HAL got me nowhere Sunday afternoon.  Sunday night my TA got in touch with HAL emergency shore services and yesterday I was contacted by Mary with HAL Family Emergency services in Seattle by both phone and texts and she said she called us because of the calls from my TA. Mary promised that she would look into how and who would test my wife, and she came through for us. Last night she notified us both that a covid test was set for today, Tuesday, between 2 and 3pm. I told Mary that at least 10 others were stranded here in the hotel from the Oosterdam and in the same limbo and she said she would look into that to see if she can help them too. 

 

[terrydtx]

1 hour ago, NavyCruiser said:

OP's statement:
"When Covid is no worse than a head cold or mild case of flu, why have forced isolation and quarantine when it is not done for colds, the flu or other illnesses?  We need to all learn to live with covid like we do with the seasonal flu and colds..."

I agree.

In our 30+ cruises & 100+ flights & vacations over the past 35 years, we've observed thousands of disgusting people with nasty unhygienic habits onboard planes, trains, & cruise ships.  There were also numerous same disgusting people on our past 3 cruises & 4 vacations post-covid.  So I'll assume there'll also be thousands of the same people in our future upcoming 3 cruises.

I'm sure we've caught hundreds of illnesses on our previous travel from people with colds, flus, mers, sars, swine/chicken flus...etc.

What did we do before?  Popped a couple of pills, rest & stayed away from other people.

We both have our 4 shots & not worried about catching covid, since we've lived normal life over past 2 years & haven't had any symptoms, whether we've caught it or not, but more worried about testing positive & being treated like this OP's experience by the cruise lines & foreign authorities.

Great post, couldn't have been stated any better. Thank you. 

[Guest ldtr]

 

1 hour ago, NavyCruiser said:

OP's statement:
"When Covid is no worse than a head cold or mild case of flu, why have forced isolation and quarantine when it is not done for colds, the flu or other illnesses?  We need to all learn to live with covid like we do with the seasonal flu and colds..."

I agree.

In our 30+ cruises & 100+ flights & vacations over the past 35 years, we've observed thousands of disgusting people with nasty unhygienic habits onboard planes, trains, & cruise ships.  There were also numerous same disgusting people on our past 3 cruises & 4 vacations post-covid.  So I'll assume there'll also be thousands of the same people in our future upcoming 3 cruises.

I'm sure we've caught hundreds of illnesses on our previous travel from people with colds, flus, mers, sars, swine/chicken flus...etc.

What did we do before?  Popped a couple of pills, rest & stayed away from other people.

We both have our 4 shots & not worried about catching covid, since we've lived normal life over past 2 years & haven't had any symptoms, whether we've caught it or not, but more worried about testing positive & being treated like this OP's experience by the cruise lines & foreign authorities.

Problem is that even after the vaccines and advances we are still losing people at an annual rate that is twice that of a very bad flu year. That does not include the increases in cardiac events, strokes, clots and diabetes that data is showing  in previously infected individuals, even those that had mild symptoms. Even though we had vaccines and therapeutics for most of 2021 total mortality  for all causes in the US continued to increase in 2021, even after the 18% increase in 2020. One would expect that if all there was to covid was mild cold like symptoms that number would have dropped significantly in 2021 starting to return to historical trend. Yet it actual increased over 2020 numbers.

 

Will be interesting to see what the 2022 numbers will look like, but until that number comes down we are not past Covids impact on life expectancy in the US.

 

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/03/united-states-deaths-spiked-as-covid-19-continued.html

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by ldtr

[happyglobetrotter]

15 hours ago, terrydtx said:

We had 6 days between cruises in Florence and Venice.  We tested in Venice the day before we boarded the Oosterdam, all negative. My wife got sick on day 10 or 11 of the 14-day HAL cruise, so most likely we got Covid on the ship.  I heard that over 100 people had covid on the ship and we only had 1100 passengers, so close to 10% got covid. That doesn't account for the many other coughing passengers who probably never reported symptoms to medical like we did. All of the Covid isolation cabins on Deck 4 and 6 were full of Covid positive passengers. I would guess there were many more covid positive passengers who never reported to medical their symptoms.  So, I would guess that the chances we got Covid on the ship is over 90%. Stop defending HAL, they did very little to mitigate covid while onboard they were negligent in their efforts to sanitize the ship and the Lido self-serve venues and tables.  I never once saw any crew members wipe down and sanitize tables in the Lido between passengers using them. HAL is guilty of total covid malfeasance, in my opinion.

If HAL is guilty of something, al lot of passengers also are (I see it daily on our cruise right now). They  are guilty of 'I do not care it is just a cold'... which is not true for quite a few people.  If there are 5 persons in an elevator, all wearing masks (and obviously more careful about being sick), why would a non-mask wearer just push his way in without asking the others if it is correct for him to so so. Impolite, careless and rude in my opinion. HAL is recommending masks, and it means they suggest that you wear one and they they want you to wear one. And for those of you who say that masks do not work, it is because they are not worn properly, not the right type, etc. Medical staff caring for Covid patients wear masks. People walking around a ship should wear masks because there are a lot of sick persons.... You mention 10%, it could easily be more.  And then, you want HAL to continue to pick up the bill entirely for all the people who do not care... this is not possible. Many many persons do not think they will catch it and act as if the threat has disappeared. The real true story is different and vacations can be ruined especially on B2B cruises or longer voyages. Covid malfeasance is very common with passengers.  

[terrydtx]

17 minutes ago, happyglobetrotter said:

If HAL is guilty of something, al lot of passengers also are (I see it daily on our cruise right now). They  are guilty of 'I do not care it is just a cold'... which is not true for quite a few people.  If there are 5 persons in an elevator, all wearing masks (and obviously more careful about being sick), why would a non-mask wearer just push his way in without asking the others if it is correct for him to so so. Impolite, careless and rude in my opinion. HAL is recommending masks, and it means they suggest that you wear one and they they want you to wear one. And for those of you who say that masks do not work, it is because they are not worn properly, not the right type, etc. Medical staff caring for Covid patients wear masks. People walking around a ship should wear masks because there are a lot of sick persons.... You mention 10%, it could easily be more.  And then, you want HAL to continue to pick up the bill entirely for all the people who do not care... this is not possible. Many many persons do not think they will catch it and act as if the threat has disappeared. The real true story is different and vacations can be ruined especially on B2B cruises or longer voyages. Covid malfeasance is very common with passengers.  

HAL provided our cabin with one of the best fitting and most comfortable KN95 masks I ever wore on our cruise. Unlike most masks they were very easy to breathe through.  I got an extra supply of them before we got off the ship. The Oosterdam only had 1100 passengers. We wore masks in most common inside areas of the ship and never got into a crowded elevator or stood close to anybody in a long line. We did mostly private tours with no more than 6 and often just the 4 in our party. We had dinner in the dining room at tables for just the 4 of us and tried to be as far as possible from the other tables. We did breakfast in our cabin from room service. We stayed out of large groups and the theater and even with all of our precautions, my wife still got Covid.  The only thing we could not avoid was the Lido on port days for lunch and I think that is where we most likely contracted the virus.  We had a sea day two days before my wife tested positive and made the mistake of doing lunch in the Lido. My best advice to others is to avoid the Lido at all costs. IMHO the Lido with too much self-serve venues and long lines of passengers is not safe from getting covid.

[Caribbean Chris]

15 hours ago, terrydtx said:

For us HAL had to notify the Italian Health authorities about my wife positive covid test and 5 day quarantine on the ship. We were told that her passport way flagged and that we could not leave Italy until she had a negative test and the Italians released her.  If I had been in Vancouver I would have just gone to the airport and flown home. 

I understand that you did the right thing and feel you have suffered because of it. Also understand that HAL dropped the ball after you left the ship and your travel agent helped fix things. I truly hope you’ll have a smoother path getting home.

 

I’m doing some interior self-examination because we have a two week Canada/NE cruise coming up in a month. We have the new booster appointments Thursday. We’ll follow safe practices on board just as you did, and I’m going to skip the Lido this trip.
 

But should we follow your advice and not report it if one of us begins to feel sick in the privacy of our cabin? Should everyone board a plane to fly home, even if a traveling companion spouse has tested positive?

 

These are not judgmental questions, this is me trying to understand where we all are in the world, Covid-wise, these days and what my response will be if we get sick. Currently cases are dropping in the US. Is it your opinion that government (and cruise line) officials need to stop these quarantines and restrictions and just treat Covid like the flu? Or should cruise ship passengers continue to be treated differently?

 

 

 

[silversneakers]

13 hours ago, Roz said:

I don't understand the 5 day quarantine on the ship and then 10 days on land.  Isn't that excessive?  At work we only have to stay home for 5 days after testing positive.

Quarantine time is dictated by the countries.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

HAL provided our cabin with one of the best fitting and most comfortable KN95 masks I ever wore on our cruise. Unlike most masks they were very easy to breathe through.  I got an extra supply of them before we got off the ship. The Oosterdam only had 1100 passengers. We wore masks in most common inside areas of the ship and never got into a crowded elevator or stood close to anybody in a long line. We did mostly private tours with no more than 6 and often just the 4 in our party. We had dinner in the dining room at tables for just the 4 of us and tried to be as far as possible from the other tables. We did breakfast in our cabin from room service. We stayed out of large groups and the theater and even with all of our precautions, my wife still got Covid.  The only thing we could not avoid was the Lido on port days for lunch and I think that is where we most likely contracted the virus.  We had a sea day two days before my wife tested positive and made the mistake of doing lunch in the Lido. My best advice to others is to avoid the Lido at all costs. IMHO the Lido with too much self-serve venues and long lines of passengers is not safe from getting covid.

If there were only a few ill, like we saw when masks were required, the steps you took would have probably worked fine, because the odds of coming into contact with an ill person during the times your were unmasked would have been low. With the spread shown on your cruise the odds of an ill person beimg close by during one of those periods would have been fairly high.

 

Certainly the risk is higher in the buffet than MDR because more people are in close proximity (more table turnover, more people walking by, etc). Same with lounges, another place where mask wearers often unmask.

 

I followed the same approach. Worked fine for 5 cruises this year. Then we had the relaxing of the  rules. Fewer wearing masks. But even more important is that fewer reported to medical when symptoms developed and they continued to go about their activities as if it was just a cold. Could not even be bothered to wear s mask, even with symptoms. Which in a ship with most not masked was a perfect environment for spread. Tested positive the day after my 6th cruise. Based upon the amount of coughing on board I suspect many others would have as well if they even bothered to test.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Caribbean Chris said:

I understand that you did the right thing and feel you have suffered because of it. Also understand that HAL dropped the ball after you left the ship and your travel agent helped fix things. I truly hope you’ll have a smoother path getting home.

 

I’m doing some interior self-examination because we have a two week Canada/NE cruise coming up in a month. We have the new booster appointments Thursday. We’ll follow safe practices on board just as you did, and I’m going to skip the Lido this trip.
 

But should we follow your advice and not report it if one of us begins to feel sick in the privacy of our cabin? Should everyone board a plane to fly home, even if a traveling companion spouse has tested positive?

 

These are not judgmental questions, this is me trying to understand where we all are in the world, Covid-wise, these days and what my response will be if we get sick. Currently cases are dropping in the US. Is it your opinion that government (and cruise line) officials need to stop these quarantines and restrictions and just treat Covid like the flu? Or should cruise ship passengers continue to be treated differently?

 

 

 

A couple of comments.

 

With home testing the numbers of official cases are dropping because 1. most tests are now done at home and results not reported  2. many taking the it's just a cold and not even bothering to test. After all if they do not test it could be just a cold or allergies so why confirm it.

 

Certainly you do have people (not just cruise line passengers  but travelers in general) thst choose to fly, even if sick. Many that chose to do so do not even mask to atleast try to protect others on the plane or at the airport.

 

Cruise ships with their large numbers  the intermixing of passengers in tight public spaces  for multiple day trips, are somewhat unique and have shown in studies an R0 higher than just about any other environment.

Edited September 6, 2022 by ldtr

[Caribbean Chris]

3 minutes ago, ldtr said:

A couple of comments.

 

With home testing the numbers of official cases are dropping because 1. most tests are now done at home and results not reported  2. many taking the it's just a cold and not even bothering to test. After all if they do not test it could be just a cold or allergies so why confirm it.

 

Certainly you do have people (not just cruise line passengers  but travelers in general) thst choose to fly, even if sick. Many that chose to do so do not even mask.

Very good points, as are those in your previous posts.

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, terrydtx said:

The Oosterdam only had 1100 passengers. We wore masks in most common inside areas of the ship and never got into a crowded elevator or stood close to anybody in a long line. We did mostly private tours with no more than 6 and often just the 4 in our party. We had dinner in the dining room at tables for just the 4 of us and tried to be as far as possible from the other tables. We did breakfast in our cabin from room service. We stayed out of large groups and the theater and even with all of our precautions, my wife still got Covid.

 

And yet people continue to insist that passengers on cruise ships are no more likely to become infected with coronavirus than anywhere else. 

 

 

[rodndonna]

2 hours ago, happyglobetrotter said:

If HAL is guilty of something, al lot of passengers also are (I see it daily on our cruise right now). They  are guilty of 'I do not care it is just a cold'... which is not true for quite a few people.  If there are 5 persons in an elevator, all wearing masks (and obviously more careful about being sick), why would a non-mask wearer just push his way in without asking the others if it is correct for him to so so. Impolite, careless and rude in my opinion.

 

This was a beef on our 2 cruises (one with masks required, one with recommended). It was generally easy enough to keep ourselves regardless of what alway people were doing. But really, how hard is it to look in an elevator, see that everyone in there is trying to keep others safe so if you refuse to wear a mask, fine, but at least wait for the next elevator or ask if it is OK.