Passport needed: closed loop out of San Juan

[Flatbush Flyer]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:53 AM, sparks1093 said:

Nothing changes. During the cruise CBP verifies all of the passenger information through government databases whether they have a passport or not. If someone does have a passport they only need to check one database, without a passport they might have to check a couple. Since this is all done during the voyage it is transparent to the passengers.

 

I'm sure that a lot of hard-working people will appreciate being called a bottom feeder.

“Bottom Feeder” is a bit harsh.
Perhaps a better term would be “pennywise and pound foolish” - applied to anyone who does vacation travel outside the U.S. to any country where an emergency flight home home in most cases would require a valid passport (and they were too cheap to get one). Of course, that might not be an issue for someone who also chose not to have the travel insurance AND high limit credit cards that would handle the cost of medical emergencies (cash is king in many foreign hospitals and credit cards with less than $50-75k limits [individually or collectively] are essential protection). They’ll have to satisfy the hospital before an airport comes into the picture.

Finally, none of this is an issue for those folks who show up at a US airport without satisfying the newest ID reqts for even just domestic travel (whenever that finally starts up). They won’t have to risk anything else on the trip since their trip will never start.

[sparks1093]

20 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

“Bottom Feeder” is a bit harsh.
Perhaps a better term would be “pennywise and pound foolish” - applied to anyone who does vacation travel outside the U.S. to any country where an emergency flight home home in most cases would require a valid passport (and they were too cheap to get one). Of course, that might not be an issue for someone who also chose not to have the travel insurance AND high limit credit cards that would handle the cost of medical emergencies (cash is king in many foreign hospitals and credit cards with less than $50-75k limits [individually or collectively] are essential protection). They’ll have to satisfy the hospital before an airport comes into the picture.

Finally, none of this is an issue for those folks who show up at a US airport without satisfying the newest ID reqts for even just domestic travel (whenever that finally starts up). They won’t have to risk anything else on the trip since their trip will never start.

If they are being pennywise and pound foolish if it goes south it's on them and no one else. Hardly a reason for the government to require passports on closed loop cruises.

[Charles4515]

43 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

“Bottom Feeder” is a bit harsh.
Perhaps a better term would be “pennywise and pound foolish” - applied to anyone who does vacation travel outside the U.S. to any country where an emergency flight home home in most cases would require a valid passport (and they were too cheap to get one). Of course, that might not be an issue for someone who also chose not to have the travel insurance AND high limit credit cards that would handle the cost of medical emergencies (cash is king in many foreign hospitals and credit cards with less than $50-75k limits [individually or collectively] are essential protection). They’ll have to satisfy the hospital before an airport comes into the picture.

Finally, none of this is an issue for those folks who show up at a US airport without satisfying the newest ID reqts for even just domestic travel (whenever that finally starts up). They won’t have to risk anything else on the trip since their trip will never start.

 

They  are certainly not bottom feeders. That is an outragous charecterization.

 

Most of the posters who ask about passports on CC are not cheap, they or someone in their family or group are unprepared for one reason or another. Expired passports, last minute decisions etc. Others may read the cruise line marketing. Some advertise a passport is not needed. 

 

As for the Real ID requirement I expect that some will show up without one because there is a percentage of the population that fly infrequently so they don't keep up with travel requirements. Hopefully the airlines will add notices when booking about the requirement. As to enforcement and being turned away you can show up now without any ID and the TSA can waive the ID requirement if you can satisfy them to your identity. That will probably be what happens. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Charles4515

[Flatbush Flyer]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

If they are being pennywise and pound foolish if it goes south it's on them and no one else. Hardly a reason for the government to require passports on closed loop cruises.

The salaries of the State Dept folks who then need to help them straighten out their issues is on taxpayers and that means me.

A little stretch of the concept of “in loco parentis” sometimes is a good government thing.

[Charles4515]

37 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

The salaries of the State Dept folks who then need to help them straighten out their issues is on taxpayers and that means me.

A little stretch of the concept of “in loco parentis” sometimes is a good government thing.

The odds of needing help are very  low though. if they were high I think passports would be required. 

 

With the Real ID requirement coming into effect why not allow flights in all of North America with Real ID? I think I had to present more documentation for Real ID than for a passport. Also if someone has Real ID why require a birth certificate?  

 

An alternative suggestion is allow the less expensive  Passport Cards to be used for cruises within North America and for flights within North America. That would lesson the expense. Since the WHTI accepts the passport card as ID that may be the easiest to implement. Allow air travel with a passport card. Or require adults to have a passport and minors traveling with an adult would only need a birth certificate for the cruise and flying to the US.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Charles4515

[Flatbush Flyer]

22 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

The odds of needing help are very  low though. if they were high I think passports would be required. 

 

With the Real ID requirement coming into effect why not allow flights in all of North America with Real ID? I think I had to present more documentation for Real ID than for a passport. Also if someone has Real ID why require a birth certificate?  

 

An alternative suggestion is allow the less expensive  Passport Cards to be used for cruises within North America and for flights within North America. That would lesson the expense. Since the WHTI accepts the passport card as ID that may be the easiest to implement. Allow air travel with a passport card. Or require adults to have a passport and minors traveling with an adult would only need a birth certificate for the cruise and flying to the US.

In reality, the “odds” are 50/50 in each distinct situation. Either you have an issue or you don’t. Odds mean nothing to the person who has an issue.

In any case, US travelers have way too many separate options for IDs (all costing me and you unnecessary taxation). You’d think that a single chipped federal passport card that could have your state driver’s license, CBP global entry, foreign visas/ETAs, et al appended would solve the issue. But, without a world standard for records format, digital reading capability, etc., we’re stuck with the paper passport books.

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

The salaries of the State Dept folks who then need to help them straighten out their issues is on taxpayers and that means me.

A little stretch of the concept of “in loco parentis” sometimes is a good government thing.

And those folks are already on the payroll. No new employees were added to the State Department rolls because of the closed loop exception. 

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

In reality, the “odds” are 50/50 in each distinct situation. Either you have an issue or you don’t. Odds mean nothing to the person who has an issue.

In any case, US travelers have way too many separate options for IDs (all costing me and you unnecessary taxation). You’d think that a single chipped federal passport card that could have your state driver’s license, CBP global entry, foreign visas/ETAs, et al appended would solve the issue. But, without a world standard for records format, digital reading capability, etc., we’re stuck with the paper passport books.

AFAIK all of the different IDs are paid for by the fees for said IDs, not tax dollars.  And millions of people travel on closed loop cruises every year with something other then a passport and vary few have any issues at all.

Edited December 4, 2022 by sparks1093

[donaldsc]

2 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 

They  are certainly not bottom feeders. That is an outragous charecterization.

 

Most of the posters who ask about passports on CC are not cheap, they or someone in their family or group are unprepared for one reason or another. Expired passports, last minute decisions etc. Others may read the cruise line marketing. Some advertise a passport is not needed. 

 

As for the Real ID requirement I expect that some will show up without one because there is a percentage of the population that fly infrequently so they don't keep up with travel requirements. Hopefully the airlines will add notices when booking about the requirement. As to enforcement and being turned away you can show up now without any ID and the TSA can waive the ID requirement if you can satisfy them to your identity. That will probably be what happens. 

 

That is the problem w requirements that really aren't requirement.  Requirements should be enforced absolutely.  No Real ID - you don't fly.  No exceptions.

 

DON

[Flatbush Flyer]

6 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

And those folks are already on the payroll. No new employees were added to the State Department rolls because of the closed loop exception. 

 

3 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

AFAIK all of the different IDs are paid for by the fees for said IDs, not tax dollars.  And millions of people travel on closed loop cruises every year with something other then a passport and vary few have any issues at all.

You may want to reread your posts and give them a little thought. 
“Already on the payroll” is not a reason to disregard cutting down workload by doing things more efficaciously.

The fees don’t cover but a part of the associated costs.

[Charles4515]

8 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

That is the problem w requirements that really aren't requirement.  Requirements should be enforced absolutely.  No Real ID - you don't fly.  No exceptions.

 

DON

That is formal logic. Requirements don't have to be absolute or enforced absolutely. The current ID requirements are not absolute. I don't know if the Real ID requirement is absolute or will be enforced absolutely. .Usually there is some flexibility to waive requirements. I don't know about Real ID. 

[Charles4515]

15 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

 

You may want to reread your posts and give them a little thought. 
“Already on the payroll” is not a reason to disregard cutting down workload by doing things more efficaciously.

The fees don’t cover but a part of the associated costs.

How is the workload increased? If people don't need passports, apply for passports, and are not issued passports the workload is decreased, Very efficient....

[Flatbush Flyer]

2 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

How is the workload increased? If people don't need passports, apply for passports, and are not issued passports the workload is decreased, Very efficient....

Every exception means more work. Each person who travels w/o a passport and then needs one while abroad is unnecessary time that could be spent reducing manpower elsewhere. 
And passports aren’t going away.

[Charles4515]

26 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Every exception means more work. Each person who travels w/o a passport and then needs one while abroad is unnecessary time that could be spent reducing manpower elsewhere. 
And passports aren’t going away.

The documentation needed to travel by land or sea is spelled out. Traveling without a passport is not an exception. If you read the regulations  there are mny acceptable documents. As for manpower in Embassies and Consulates,  part of their duties are to assist US citizens abroad. That is what they get paid to do. Whatever time they spend helping US citizens abroad is necessary time. 

 

What types of documents are accepted for entry into the United States via land and sea?

• U.S. citizens can present a valid: U.S. Passport; Passport Card; Enhanced Driver’s License; Trusted Traveler Program card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST); U.S. Military identification card when traveling on official orders; U.S. Merchant Mariner document when traveling in conjunction with official maritime business; or Form I-872 American Indian Card, or (when available) Enhanced Tribal Card.
• U.S. and Canadian citizen children under the age of 16 (or under 19, if traveling with a school, religious group, or other youth group) need only present a birth certificate or other proof of citizenship. The birth certificate can be original, photocopy, or certified copy.
• WHTI does not affect U.S. Lawful Permanent Residents, who are still required to present their permanent resident card (Form I-551) or other valid evidence of permanent residence status.
• Canadian citizens can present a valid passport, Enhanced Driver’s License, or Trusted Traveler Program card (NEXUS, SENTRI or FAST).
• Bermudian citizens are required to present a valid passport.
• Mexican citizens, including children, are required to present a passport with visa, or a Border Crossing Card.
• U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises (cruises that begin and end at the same U.S. port) are able to enter the United States with a birth certificate and government-issued photo ID. Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Charles4515

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

. As to enforcement and being turned away you can show up now without any ID and the TSA can waive the ID requirement if you can satisfy them to your identity. That will probably be what happens. 

How do you suppose someone who shows up “…without ANY  ID…”  could satisfy the TSA as to their identity?

[Charles4515]

17 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

How do you suppose someone who shows up “…without ANY  ID…”  could satisfy the TSA as to their identity?

 

This is how.........😆

 

Forgot Your ID?

In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name, current address, and other personal information to confirm your identity. If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint. You will be subject to additional screening, to include a patdown and screening of carry-on property.

You will not be allowed to enter the security checkpoint if your identity cannot be confirmed, you choose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process.

TSA recommends that you arrive at least two hours in advance of your flight time.

 

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Every exception means more work. Each person who travels w/o a passport and then needs one while abroad is unnecessary time that could be spent reducing manpower elsewhere. 
And passports aren’t going away.

The same could be said for people who have a passport and lose it or have it stolen while traveling. Traveler services have always been a part of State's mission and always will be.

[zqvol]

3 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

That is the problem w requirements that really aren't requirement.  Requirements should be enforced absolutely.  No Real ID - you don't fly.  No exceptions.

 

DON

Let's take a step back because a passport or a passport card is just as good as REAL ID, so what you mean to say is without a passport, a passport card or a real id you don't fly, and that is going to be the law pretty soon.

[donaldsc]

10 minutes ago, zqvol said:

Let's take a step back because a passport or a passport card is just as good as REAL ID, so what you mean to say is without a passport, a passport card or a real id you don't fly, and that is going to be the law pretty soon.

 

Yes but based on the above response #41 they will let you travel anyway.

 

DON

[Charles4515]

21 minutes ago, zqvol said:

Let's take a step back because a passport or a passport card is just as good as REAL ID, so what you mean to say is without a passport, a passport card or a real id you don't fly, and that is going to be the law pretty soon.

Real ID is supposed to go into effect on May 03, 2023. Might actually happen this time.

[Charles4515]

13 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

Yes but based on the above response #41 they will let you travel anyway.

 

DON

Yes, but who would want to go through that hassle. Same with passports, I would not want to not have a passport and need a passport. . 

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 

This is how.........😆

 

Forgot Your ID?

In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name, current address, and other personal information to confirm your identity. ...

 

3 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

TSA recommends that you arrive at least two hours in advance of your flight time.

 

Do you realize how many "ifs" are involved - in even reaching anyone who might be able to satisfactorily convince the TSA that you are who you are:  then, once you have reached them, their presenting (over the phone) some credible information satisfactory to the TSA?  -- All within the two hours in advance of your flight time?  Yes -- I suppose some pigs have wings .. But - how do you facilitate their " '''collecting infornation such as your name current address and other personal information..."  if, as you say, you have arrived at the airport "...WITH NO IDENTIFICATION...".

 

Yes , the Blue Fairy from Pinnochio  might fly down and make things right, but .......................

 

What the TSA REALLY recommends is that you arrive at the airport at least two hours in advance of your flght time WITH appropriate identification.

[Charles4515]

45 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

Do you realize how many "ifs" are involved - in even reaching anyone who might be able to satisfactorily convince the TSA that you are who you are:  then, once you have reached them, their presenting (over the phone) some credible information satisfactory to the TSA?  -- All within the two hours in advance of your flight time?  Yes -- I suppose some pigs have wings .. But - how do you facilitate their " '''collecting infornation such as your name current address and other personal information..."  if, as you say, you have arrived at the airport "...WITH NO IDENTIFICATION...".

 

Yes , the Blue Fairy from Pinnochio  might fly down and make things right, but .......................

 

What the TSA REALLY recommends is that you arrive at the airport at least two hours in advance of your flght time WITH appropriate identification.

 

So you think they publish that if they don't mean it? You are something. Most TSA employees are not power hungry jerks. They are actually fairly sensable about it verifying ID.  You think they are clueless about how because you are? It could take about 10 or 15 minutes or less.  The reason I knew about this policy that you could travel if you forgot or lost your ID is that I was in a position to interact with the TSA for a bunch of years. Never observed them to deny .

Edited December 5, 2022 by Charles4515

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, zqvol said:

Let's take a step back because a passport or a passport card is just as good as REAL ID, so what you mean to say is without a passport, a passport card or a real id you don't fly, and that is going to be the law pretty soon.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.  My state's DMV says real ID will be required to fly.   That simply isn't true for those with passports.  

 

I just had to renew my DL.   My choice was to book an appt and go the DMV for a real ID, or renew my DL online.   I did the online renewal.   

[ldubs]

6 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

So you think they publish that if they don't mean it? You are something. Most TSA employees are not power hungry jerks. They are actually fairly sensable about it verifying ID.  You think they are clueless about how because you are? It could take about 10 or 15 minutes or less.  The reason I knew about this policy that you could travel if you forgot or lost your ID is that I was in a position to interact with the TSA for a bunch of years. Never observed them to deny .

 

Wait a minute. Surely you do not expect me to believe a quote from TSA's site over what I read from strangers on the internet!  😀