Muster drills to return to pre-Covid style

[RocketMan275]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Guess what, in addition to learning where your muster station is, the drill provides you with knowledge about what to do in an emergency.  I guess strolling to the muster station when you feel like it, is what you'd do in an emergency?  You claim to have done training.  Your philosophy does not point to any need for realistic training.  It merely points to not wanting to disrupt a vacation.

 

Okay, I'll remind you of what I've said to you in other threads.  The e-muster has conditional approval (meaning temporary), and while it hasn't been removed, the two lines who have gone back to it see the writing on the wall, that within the next couple of years, at the latest, the e-muster will go away.  They just want to get rid of the extra time involved in the e-muster, and get back to proper training.

The traditional muster drill provide minimal, if any, training for the passenger beyond what is/can be provided via the video.  There is no reason, beyond we've always done it this way, to return to the traditional muster.  

 

Amazing, having one crewmember stationed at each muster station to scan card requires too much extra time but having all four thousand passengers spend an hour on the traditional muster isn't too much.  BTW, a traditional muster clearly requires much more crewtime than the emuster.

 

Even if the emuster would go away within a couple of years that isn't justification for doing away with it now.  

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

There is no reason, beyond we've always done it this way, to return to the traditional muster.  

I find it interesting that those who have no maritime experience, and no safety training experience, are against returning to the old muster format, while anyone who has had maritime or naval experience understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster, and recommend returning to the old muster.

 

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I find it interesting that those who have no maritime experience, and no safety training experience, are against returning to the old muster format, while anyone who has had maritime or naval experience understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster, and recommend returning to the old muster.

 

Sometimes those who have all this experience are too invested in the status quo to see that there are better ways to do things.

[www3traveler]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I find it interesting that those who have no maritime experience, and no safety training experience, are against returning to the old muster format, while anyone who has had maritime or naval experience understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster, and recommend returning to the old muster.

 

EXACTLY  THANK YOU  CHIEF  as always.  Do not remember how many years you served aboard a cruise ship, but I know that it was lot.  With that comes experience and gained knowledge.

Over the years, as a passenger who cares about crew, I appriecate and respect every singl e one of you.

[Cruzinnana47]

DH served in the U.S. Coast Guard and U.S. Naval Reserve, so we understand the reasons for a muster drill.  Of course the newer e-muster is very convenient and "easy" but doesn't take the place of a more traditional muster.  I personally don't enjoy standing out on deck wearing a lifejacket, but I get it!  It's only an inconvenience for a few minutes, providing everyone complies and reach their muster station promptly.

 

Thanks to Chengkp75--always enjoy your insight and maritime knowledge.

[wcook]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster

Just curious, what training do you think e-muster fails to provide, that is better done in a group setting? 

[scooter6139]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Sometimes those who have all this experience are too invested in the status quo to see that there are better ways to do things.

I think we call that "armchair quarterbacking" here in the states.  Lot's of amateurs think they know how to do everything better, but are wrong about 95% of the time.  

 

It would be interesting if they could do a test of an emergency drill with both types of passengers, one eMuster only and one full muster station.  

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Sometimes those who have all this experience are too invested in the status quo to see that there are better ways to do things.

Or perhaps they have learned from experience.

[farjar]

17 hours ago, ontheweb said:

What great training for a real emergency situation. 🤦‍♂️ Everyone just saunter in 20-25 at a time. Do you really think that would work in a real muster situation?

Since we were actually at our designated muster station we knew exactly were to go in case there was an true emergency.  The crew members also asked at the end if there were any questions just in case additional clarification was needed. 

[tonit964]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I find it interesting that those who have no maritime experience, and no safety training experience, are against returning to the old muster format, while anyone who has had maritime or naval experience understands the lack of training provided by the e-muster, and recommend returning to the old muster.

 

I’m curious as to how cruise lines have a choice of either going back to the standard muster or keeping the e muster. I would think it would all have to be the same?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, wcook said:

Just curious, what training do you think e-muster fails to provide, that is better done in a group setting? 

It fails to provide realistic training for the passengers, in that they are not going to their muster stations while another thousand passengers are trying to get to theirs.  It fails to provide realistic training for the crew in how to handle large crowds of recalcitrant passengers, and how to search a ship properly.  As I've said many, many, times, the most effective training is that which is closest to an actual emergency (train how you'd  fight, and then fight as you trained, is the mantra), and an e-muster is about as far from a real emergency as you can get.  As one poster on several threads has said, he is not interested in being a "training aid" for the crew.  On a ship, everyone is on one team, and if that team fails, loss of life will be tragic, having the passengers participate in a realistic muster, shows the crew that the passengers are at least a semi-willing member of the team, and deserving of the crew's best efforts to save their lives.  Many who claim the old muster is not effective have never been in a maritime emergency, where everyone who has maritime experience will tell you that the maritime environment bears no resemblance to any other place on earth.  I've had firefighters from port fire departments come on and comment on how hard it would be to fight a ship fire, compared to their job, many times.

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, tonit964 said:

I’m curious as to how cruise lines have a choice of either going back to the standard muster or keeping the e muster. I would think it would all have to be the same?

The old style muster is the only permanently approved method.  The e-muster has conditional approval, pending review of effectiveness, and has not been rescinded yet.  So, cruise lines can choose to use either.

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, farjar said:

Since we were actually at our designated muster station we knew exactly were to go in case there was an true emergency.  The crew members also asked at the end if there were any questions just in case additional clarification was needed. 

And when you are trying to get to your muster station, from a place you never thought you'd be coming from, and there is a cross traffic of several hundred passengers trying to get to their stations, how has the e-muster trained you for that?

[sailorusvi]

Everyone learns differently.  Some better with emuster others the old way.  I think both have their benefits and weaknesses.

 

When EVERYONE is heading to their muster station at the same it simulates a real emergency in terms of crowds.   It might make you think twice about using the elevator so those who really need them. It might make you think twice on how to get to the station more efficiently in a crowd situation.  Some people will get nervous, anxious, inpatient, etc. during the drill which want happens in a real situation. You might not be able to hear some instructions. Just like a real emergency because your fellow passengers will not shut up.

 

Some will come away learning absolutely nothing.  Some people will absorb a lot, most somewhere in the middle.  

 

The crew will learn about the passengers.  I was crew on sailboat, we obverse the passengers during safety speeches and with pretty good accuracy we can pick out the "problem people". They were the ones late to the boat at a port, they snorkeled where you said not to, they are the ones you have to hold their hand for every little thing, they are the drunks ones and it was like herding cats to comply to anything.   Every trip has them and the safety briefing is often where the assessments are done.

[tonit964]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The old style muster is the only permanently approved method.  The e-muster has conditional approval, pending review of effectiveness, and has not been rescinded yet.  So, cruise lines can choose to use either.

Ahhh, makes sense. Thank you as always. 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, farjar said:

Since we were actually at our designated muster station we knew exactly were to go in case there was an true emergency.  The crew members also asked at the end if there were any questions just in case additional clarification was needed. 

You replied to me, but @chengkp75 has already explained this. 

 

In a real emergency, I think we can all agree that we passengers are going to be dependent on the crew. They are the ones whose training is important. And the best training is to have it as close to a real life emergency as possible. The new e-muster does not provide that. 

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

And when you are trying to get to your muster station, from a place you never thought you'd be coming from, and there is a cross traffic of several hundred passengers trying to get to their stations, how has the e-muster trained you for that?

Oh, so that's the training that an emuster doesn't provide?

I would expect that getting to your emuster station is just as difficult.

In the traditional muster, most traffic flow is in the same general direction, towards the muster station.

In the emuster, traffic flow is in all directions making movement even more difficult. 

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

In the emuster, traffic flow is in all directions making movement even more difficult. 

Yeah, during embarkation you typically see a hundred people going down a stairwell at a time, right?  And, how many people use the elevator to get to their e-muster location?

 

And, in a traditional muster, not everyone is going the same direction.  A passenger who is aft at the signal needs to get to their station which is all the way forward.  Another passenger is forward and needs to get aft to their station.  Don't know what musters you have observed, but my observations are quite different.

 

Come on, just admit that you don't want to be inconvenienced by a muster drill, and that is the only reason.

[RocketMan275]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, during embarkation you typically see a hundred people going down a stairwell at a time, right?  And, how many people use the elevator to get to their e-muster location?

 

And, in a traditional muster, not everyone is going the same direction.  A passenger who is aft at the signal needs to get to their station which is all the way forward.  Another passenger is forward and needs to get aft to their station.  Don't know what musters you have observed, but my observations are quite different.

 

Come on, just admit that you don't want to be inconvenienced by a muster drill, and that is the only reason.

No, I've been very clear that I want the most efficient and best training.  While there may be minor differences, I do not see that the traditional muster is sufficiently better.   

 

In fact, I can see where the emuster could provide superior training to the crew.  You've mentioned the need for the crew to train in dealing with non-cooperative passengers.  Training scenarios can be developed and used to train with crew members acting as non-cooperative passengers.  This doesn't take 4000 passengers and crew.  The training is scripted to be realistic and the crew can interact in ways that are not possible with real passengers.

 

On Breakaway last March, passengres were moving in all directions and the area around the emuster point was very hectic and crowded.

[casofilia]

I wonder how many people just turn on the TV or Phone when the Muster has to be watched and then go to do something else!!!

 

I detest the outside on in the heat or rain; waiting for people to turn up, waiting for them to start listening, and seeing my wife in pain from having to stand for far too long.

 

However it assures that people are actually "involved"

[CruizinSusan70]

5 hours ago, Cruzinnana47 said:

 It's only an inconvenience for a few minutes, providing everyone complies and reach their muster station promptly.

As long as it not a return to the old method of standing in formation wearing your life jacket and sweating bullets, then the indoor method would be a compromise, but still a pain.  It doesn't last a few minutes. There are always stragglers that delay the start and the major congestion afterwards at the elevators can take forever to get where you're going, substantially more if you're relegated to a scooter.

The emuster was a step forward post COVID and streamlined a process that can be a pain.  It's a step backwards to go to the old method, but as usual it's just another aspect of the fact that we don't make the rules, we just play the game.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Training scenarios can be developed and used to train with crew members acting as non-cooperative passengers.

How effective are scripted scenarios in reflecting a real emergency response?  Not well, from my experience.  Are you going to discipline crew if they don't act convincingly panicked?  If they just want to horse around and make a joke of it?  If they find their roommate or boy/girlfriend on the other side of the scenario?

 

Even when we would script a crew member to be a "casualty", the response both from casualty and response team were not what you would expect in an emergency. 

 

And, when would this drill using hundreds of crew (to simulate the passenger muster realistically) take place?  What passenger services or areas of the ship would you inhibit to be able to have this drill?

 

Does a real emergency on a ship require 4000 passengers and crew?  If it does, then the realistic way to train is to use 4000 passengers and crew.

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

On Breakaway last March, passengres were moving in all directions and the area around the emuster point was very hectic and crowded.

And, were the areas away from the muster stations crowded and chaotic?  Were the elevators shut down?  Were the stairwells packed with people?  I fail to see how someone who says they've designed training for the military can think that the e-muster is in any way realistic training.  Did you just design the training, or did you apply it, was it for emergency response, did it get repeated?

[eroller]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

It fails to provide realistic training for the passengers, in that they are not going to their muster stations while another thousand passengers are trying to get to theirs.  It fails to provide realistic training for the crew in how to handle large crowds of recalcitrant passengers, and how to search a ship properly.  As I've said many, many, times, the most effective training is that which is closest to an actual emergency (train how you'd  fight, and then fight as you trained, is the mantra), and an e-muster is about as far from a real emergency as you can get.  As one poster on several threads has said, he is not interested in being a "training aid" for the crew.  On a ship, everyone is on one team, and if that team fails, loss of life will be tragic, having the passengers participate in a realistic muster, shows the crew that the passengers are at least a semi-willing member of the team, and deserving of the crew's best efforts to save their lives.  Many who claim the old muster is not effective have never been in a maritime emergency, where everyone who has maritime experience will tell you that the maritime environment bears no resemblance to any other place on earth.  I've had firefighters from port fire departments come on and comment on how hard it would be to fight a ship fire, compared to their job, many times.

 

 

All great points and I have a new appreciation of the traditional muster method.  I will willingly admit though that I love the convenience of the e-muster.  It's interesting the RCG has stated they have no intention of returning to the traditional muster.  Having been crew onboard cruise ships (my former life) and 28 years as a flight attendant I've done musters and safety demos countless times, which is another reason the e-muster appeals to me.  Of course not everyone has the benefit of experience and I understand how the traditional muster is more effective, even if it is somewhat of a PITA. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by eroller

[psac]

As a seasoned cruiser, of course the e-muster was a lot easier.  We stopped by on the way up to the Haven lounge when the ship was still totally empty and no semblance of any real simulation of what might actually occur. But I knew where I would have to go. And they did spend 2 or 3 minutes showing us how to put on the life jacket. (And I do pay attention since they are always a little different.)

 

But I can understand the need to return to the old style, especially when you hear them repeatedly say anyone who hasn’t reported yet REALLY needed to,.. obvious there were a lot of no-shows.  And more so now seeing some of the explanations here. 
 

I can also appreciate sitting in the NCL stations in the theater and other similar locations is a lot better than outside in the tight rows on DCL. REALLY hated that. In either case we’ll wear our masks for the muster, which the last few cruises we didn’t wear the rest of the cruise, except for debarkation. Bummer to risk the crowded space right at beginning of the cruise. But it is what it is. 

[Elvis1209]

18 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Thought you left the building!

(

I did, but I came back again when I heard all the complaining!

 

Elvis