Gratuities [eeeek]

[bucfan2]

Just now, Badatz2 said:

After reading 6 pages about basically the same thing,

and in hopes of getting another 6 pages on this subject, .......

[Vibe]

5 hours ago, Billy Baltic said:

Excellent. I’ve been waiting on someone who has access to their contact of employment. Can you share it here please. 

When a crew member signs a contract, they are aware and agree to the total compensation which includes a share of the automatic gratuity’s. Just like every other job offered in the world, compensation is discussed.
 

There are two types of crew members, those that work behind the scenes (we don’t see them) and those that have direct contact with the guests (waiters, stateroom stewards) That explains what I said, I did not say I have access to their contact of employment.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Vibe

[HappyTexan44]

1 hour ago, Badatz2 said:

Why should tipping be a percentage of your bill.   Even the "dreaded and hated" daily gratuity is a fixed amount and not a percentage of my fare.  True there is differences by certain room categories but within the category not all fares are identical.

If a waiter brings me a roast beef entree, is he working harder than if he brought me roast chicken and therefore is entitled to a bigger tip?

Is opening a top craft beer any different that opening a Budweiser?   

You can see where I am going with this.

 

Roast beef vs roast chicken is too fine of a detail.   The percentage is just a rule of thumb and most people adjust up or down from there.  

 

But, the service expected and received is better/more at a nice steak place than at a Waffle House.  More expensive food = nicer place = better service.   

 

 

 

 

[Badatz2]

6 minutes ago, HappyTexan44 said:

 

Roast beef vs roast chicken is too fine of a detail.   The percentage is just a rule of thumb and most people adjust up or down from there.  

 

But, the service expected and received is better/more at a nice steak place than at a Waffle House.  More expensive food = nicer place = better service.   

 

 

 

 

Don't fully agree with you.  Most people I know will say that they will give X% at a restaurant  and it makes no difference what you order. 

I have a problem with that.  Good service should get more and bad service get nothing along with an onsite

comment to management 

[Mum2Mercury]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:18 PM, zimmerman said:

one of the waiters (in a speciality restaurant) we were talking to told us that on the previous week’s cruise, 25% of customers had cancelled their gratuities.

Were you cruising with Cheapskates Anonymous and Jerks United?  Otherwise, that percentage sounds awfully high.  I do wonder if, as you say, the crew sometimes lays "some foundation for our sympathies".  I remember on our very first cruise (when we still had two small daughters) our cabin steward pulled out a photograph of himself with two small daughters on the last evening of the cruise and talked about how long it'd been since he had seen them.  Thing is, he had a stack of other photographs, but he showed us the one with a family that looked most like ours. 

 

I don't distrust the crew, but I think it's human nature to do what you can to help yourself.  

On 9/4/2023 at 12:05 AM, sgmn said:

Which is mainly because Europeans don't understand the American based tipping culture on board ship.

Don't understand. 

Choose not to understand ... and it's not just Europeans.  

On 9/4/2023 at 3:40 AM, bjlaac said:

After 30 minutes or so, a long shoreman helped us find our luggage which was tucked in a corner with all of the identiying tags "missing". 

Eh, one story doesn't prove a point.  Accidents do happen.  You're probably right to say that the truth usually lies "between".  

On 9/4/2023 at 7:46 AM, not-enough-cruising said:

They are not living in another country either. 
they are living an all expense paid life during their contract, and the money made all goes to their home country; so that is where the value should be assessed. 

Well, yeah, they DO live in the other country.  They accept a contract to work onboard for X number of months, but they remain citizens /residents of their home country.  They won't need much. money on the ship, but when they return home their money will "spend" at that country's rate.  

 

Sure, some are supporting families back home, but I'm sure that varies.  Surely some are saving up for medical school or whatever else might be impressive.  

12 hours ago, Ret MP said:

Just for clarification:  I worked in a few restaurants as a Jr high school kid, washing dishes.  My pay was a %age of the wait staff's tips and a very small hourly wage.  I worked hard to make sure every plate, spoon, and glass was totally clean and spot-free.  If I made the wait staff look good, I got more money.  No, I can't guarantee that all the wait staff was honest and put all the tips in the bucket.   I believe that system is still in existence today - shared gratuities for those behind the scenes. 

I worked under this system when I was in college.  My daughter waited tables in high school (much more recently) and she worked under this system.  Whether it's a good or bad system, it's well accepted in America.  

29 minutes ago, Vibe said:

When a crew member signs a contract, they are aware and agree to the total compensation which includes a share of the automatic gratuity’s. Just like every other job offered in the world, compensation is discussed.

Exactly.  The crew knows what they can expect once they're working onboard. 

The passengers know what they're expected to tip. 

In theory, if everyone just does what's expected, no one is surprised.  Everything works out.  When you start trying to change the system -- tipping these people more, ignoring the people who wash your sheets -- you tip the apple cart and things go wonky.  

I believe in doing what's easy:  Pre-pay your tips, don't think about it any more.  Going above and beyond isn't necessary.  Just do what's expected.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Mum2Mercury

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, Badatz2 said:

After reading 6 pages about basically the same thing.  I would like to take a change in direction based on your comments.

 

Why should tipping be a percentage of your bill.   Even the "dreaded and hated" daily gratuity is a fixed amount and not a percentage of my fare.  True there is differences by certain room categories but within the category not all fares are identical.

If a waiter brings me a roast beef entree, is he working harder than if he brought me roast chicken and therefore is entitled to a bigger tip?

Is opening a top craft beer any different that opening a Budweiser?   

You can see where I am going with this.

 

All tips should be either a fixed amount, left to my discretion, or not allowed at all.  Otherwise the cost of the meal, fare, etc. should be all inclusive and If I chose to partake of the service than I will pay it willingly.

On a somewhat related tangent, when and why did the "normal" tipping amount at US restaurants go up from 15% to 18% or 20% or whatever it is now?  I've been told that it's because of inflation, but if that's the case, then wouldn't that 15% tip go up along with the inflating prices of the menu items?

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by time4u2go

[ATG]

19 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

On a somewhat related tangent, when and why did the "normal" tipping amount at US restaurants go up from 15% to 18% or 20% or whatever it is now?  I've been told that it's because of inflation, but if that's the case, then wouldn't that 15% tip go up along with the inflating prices of the menu items?

 

Agree.

This week I went to Great Clips for a basic haircut.  The senior rate was $16.  The credit card machine had 3 options for tip - $4, $6, or custom.  That’s 25% or 37.5%.  Wow!  

[Mum2Mercury]

1 hour ago, time4u2go said:

On a somewhat related tangent, when and why did the "normal" tipping amount at US restaurants go up from 15% to 18% or 20% or whatever it is now?  I've been told that it's because of inflation, but if that's the case, then wouldn't that 15% tip go up along with the inflating prices of the menu items?

A whole whopping number of people don't understand percentages.  

44 minutes ago, ATG said:

Agree.

This week I went to Great Clips for a basic haircut.  The senior rate was $16.  The credit card machine had 3 options for tip - $4, $6, or custom.  That’s 25% or 37.5%.  Wow!  

How old do you have to be to get a senior citizen rate?  

[grandgeezer]

Since some of the responses have strayed from the original post…….

We live in a retirement community near Phoenix. Our garbage is not picked up by the city but by a private company. Because of the occasional coyote, bobcat, and javelinas canvassing the neighborhood for food. Living within ten minutes of two eighteen hole golf courses does’t help as that is home to most of them. Hence, our garbage cans are in ground, in a metal cylinder, with a hinged top. This is up by the garage, next to the driveway.

Garbage is picked up twice a week, even weeks including a holiday. The guys who pick it up have a big barrel, on wheels, and they have to do go up every driveway to pick it up. That’s 52 weeks times twice a week equals 104 times a year. They also pick up recycle twice a month, but that is picked up at the curb which is 24 trips a year. That’s 128 times a year, per home.

Bottom line, they do all this for less than tips, for a seven day cruise in a suite.

Oh, anything that can’t fit in the can, no food items, can be left at the curb.

[ATG]

2 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

A whole whopping number of people don't understand percentages.  

How old do you have to be to get a senior citizen rate?  

I think 60, but I’m almost 70 so I’ve forgotten when I became eligible.  I know Publix  is 60 - they give a 5% discount on Wednesday..  I don’t mind using my age to get a discount, it means more money for cruising!

[nelblu]

3 hours ago, ATG said:

I think 60, but I’m almost 70 so I’ve forgotten when I became eligible.  I know Publix  is 60 - they give a 5% discount on Wednesday..  I don’t mind using my age to get a discount, it means more money for cruising!

You can belong to AARP at age 55 and get any discounts applicable.

[kirtihk]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:58 AM, Billy Baltic said:

And so it starts again. This is a topic that will never get agreement or for that matter, much fact based discussion. It’s a cultural oddity. 

It is not; it is a simple arithmetic calculation - if a country has no tipping “culture”, restaurant employees would get whatever agreed upon salary, and a food item’s price would include a prorated portion of what would be a tip amount (and tax, by the way, too) in US.  If a customer accept (l purposely did not write an “s”), such an item for that price, they (the same as for a missing “s”) buys (again, the same) and enjoys the product.  That’s all.

Edited September 8, 2023 by kirtihk

[Mum2Mercury]

19 hours ago, ATG said:

I think 60, but I’m almost 70 so I’ve forgotten when I became eligible.  I know Publix  is 60 - they give a 5% discount on Wednesday..  I don’t mind using my age to get a discount, it means more money for cruising!

I'm retired, but I'm still mid-50s -- so not quite old enough for most of these senior citizen discounts; once I'm old enough, though, I'll take advantage!  When I hit 60 and can really find some discounts, I intend to print myself a calendar:  5% Publix, whatever else.  My grandmother used to say I "spend every dollar twice".  She wasn't wrong.  

[grandgeezer]

3 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I'm retired, but I'm still mid-50s -- so not quite old enough for most of these senior citizen discounts; once I'm old enough, though, I'll take advantage!  When I hit 60 and can really find some discounts, I intend to print myself a calendar:  5% Publix, whatever else.  My grandmother used to say I "spend every dollar twice".  She wasn't wrong.  

By the number of homeless people, too many followed the idea of spending every dollar twice. Granted, there are many reasons for that, immigrant being one of them I would guess a vast majority of them is $$$ related, they must have had the “spend two dollars for ever one dollar  philosophy.
For example, there is an area called The Zone, where a good share of them camp out in boxes, tents, and other things. If you’re ever in Phoenix, it’s located on Jefferson St., between 7th and 16th Ave. There are only a few businesses there but it’s only a few blocks from the state capital building and a lot of other government ones too. Several months ago the businesses sued the city and the judge gave the city a deadline to clean it up, and extended the time several times. Bottom line, last I heard there are more people living there than when they started.

One last point to help explain my logic.        My sister, and her husband both had full time jobs but they too went with the spending two for one idea, so they had very little savings. Then the bomb dropped, all the kids were gone and her husband got a big promotion and a 20% raise. Big new house, new cars, travel, etc. Like my dad used to say “Spending money like a drunken sailor on shore leave”.  Her company downsized and she lost her job. Because of the debt she had to find a different job and the best thing she could find was as a waitress. They were hanging on by the skin of their teeth then Covid hit, and she lost her job.

Today: They lost the house and due to their  financial situation, they had to get an apartment as they couldn’t afford a house. They are divorced, in their mid 60s and no retirement in the near future. I have a brother, like me not a financial worry in the world, but we had been warning them for years, the rabbit hole they were digging, but they just ignored us.

They didn’t care about their future so why should we bail them out? Maybe the kids are doing something.

[Ret MP]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:19 PM, PompeySailor said:

And a Manager of Port Canaveral parking

A Military Police officer and there was another job you had the other day 

I remember something about hospitality manager

 

Wow quite the job hopper - I used to think there were jobs for life back in the day 

 

Jack of all 

it’s only humor 🤣

Hopefully you can even see the funny side 😂🤣😂🤣

Ex Army here 

counterfeiter 

father

brother 

trainer

drinker

eater 

cruiser

lover

 

Yep, I've lived a very fulfilling life with lots of experience.  I've also done much more than I have discussed here on this board.    Oh, and that's Port Everglades and FLL, not Port Canaveral.  Plumber, roofer, golf club repairer, and starter at a Golf Club, metering tech for an electric utility company & Customer Service member Rep. (retired from), over the road truck driver (retired from), and I won't even get into some of the things I did in the Army (retired from).  I've retired 3 times.  I'm sure I could think of a few other things if I tried.  But, most were just summer jobs and I was not professional at.  Professional at Law Enforcement, Soldiering, Truck Driving, and managing Parking Operations at an Airport and Cruise Port & Human Resources for the same parking company (USA Parking).  

 

Yes, I see the humor in most things.  Just not necessarily from some people.  But, I do love to cruise.  

[Mum2Mercury]

37 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

By the number of homeless people, too many followed the idea of spending every dollar twice. Granted, there are many reasons for that, immigrant being one of them I would guess a vast majority of them is $$$ related, they must have had the “spend two dollars for ever one dollar  philosophy.
For example, there is an area called The Zone, where a good share of them camp out in boxes, tents, and other things. If you’re ever in Phoenix, it’s located on Jefferson St., between 7th and 16th Ave. There are only a few businesses there but it’s only a few blocks from the state capital building and a lot of other government ones too. Several months ago the businesses sued the city and the judge gave the city a deadline to clean it up, and extended the time several times. Bottom line, last I heard there are more people living there than when they started.

One last point to help explain my logic.        My sister, and her husband both had full time jobs but they too went with the spending two for one idea, so they had very little savings. Then the bomb dropped, all the kids were gone and her husband got a big promotion and a 20% raise. Big new house, new cars, travel, etc. Like my dad used to say “Spending money like a drunken sailor on shore leave”.  Her company downsized and she lost her job. Because of the debt she had to find a different job and the best thing she could find was as a waitress. They were hanging on by the skin of their teeth then Covid hit, and she lost her job.

Today: They lost the house and due to their  financial situation, they had to get an apartment as they couldn’t afford a house. They are divorced, in their mid 60s and no retirement in the near future. I have a brother, like me not a financial worry in the world, but we had been warning them for years, the rabbit hole they were digging, but they just ignored us.

They didn’t care about their future so why should we bail them out? Maybe the kids are doing something.

I don't think we're on the same page at all -- I don't even understand everything you've said. 

 

By "spending every dollar twice", I mean I spend so frugally that I try to get my purchase + some other value for my dollar; for example, timing my purchase so I'm buying on sale + building up loyalty points and/or credit card points for future purchases.  For example, if my husband says, "I'm in the mood for subs from our favorite local place," I'll say, "Great idea -- let's do it Wednesday when they're two-for-one."  I buy most clothing, books, movies and such used.  I came from a poor family, and -- looking back -- I don't even know how I managed to put myself through college.  With no windfalls, no inheritance, no help from anyone except my husband, I have been debt-free (including no mortgage) since before age 40.  I put my kids through college without debt, have already invested money for my only grandson's education (did that the day after a dear friend died young, and I realized she would have no opportunity to do so for her grands), I and retired at 55.  I have retirement savings, a pension and three modest secondary income streams.  And in a few years I'll add Social Security. 

 

Sorry 'bout your family's financial irresponsibility, but they and I have little in common -- no one needs to "bail me out".  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Mum2Mercury

[PompeySailor]

22 minutes ago, Ret MP said:

Yep, I've lived a very fulfilling life with lots of experience.  I've also done much more than I have discussed here on this board.    Oh, and that's Port Everglades and FLL, not Port Canaveral.  Plumber, roofer, golf club repairer, and starter at a Golf Club, metering tech for an electric utility company & Customer Service member Rep. (retired from), over the road truck driver (retired from), and I won't even get into some of the things I did in the Army (retired from).  I've retired 3 times.  I'm sure I could think of a few other things if I tried.  But, most were just summer jobs and I was not professional at.  Professional at Law Enforcement, Soldiering, Truck Driving, and managing Parking Operations at an Airport and Cruise Port & Human Resources for the same parking company (USA Parking).  

 

Yes, I see the humor in most things.  Just not necessarily from some people.  But, I do love to cruise.  

I see what you did there

My post was removed 10ths ago

Quoting that needs a certain level of skill

Do you know Liam Neeson 😎

[seasidemama]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:44 AM, not-enough-cruising said:

The minimum wage that P&O pays is EXACTLY the same as the minimum wage for the same position that Royal pays. 
The difference is P&O gets the money upfront to cover these costs, whereas Royal tries to guilt their customers into subsidizing this amount AFTER advertising a competitive low fare in their perspective market. 

Only glitch now is that Royal's fares are no longer low compared to the "competitive market". While this certainly was the logic in the not so distant past, I anticipate a lot more will be taking off mandatory gratuities (not just in Europe) now that the level of included service and amenities has dropped along with double/triple fares.

 

No, I don't blame the crew and I do believe they deserve to be paid well but I also think more people will be able to logic out any associated 'guilt' when paying more for less and expect Royal to pay their employees higher salaries based on higher revenue.

 

Also, I don't think staff will be as affected because there are less staff doing more work, so if gratuities really are distributed as per Royal's table, each employee should be getting a higher percentage of the overall gratuity pool. For example, cabin stewards used to service 10 rooms twice each day, and receive the share for 10 rooms. Now they service 20 rooms, once per day and receive the share for 20 rooms, so if even 50% of passengers remove gratuities, they would still get the same salary as previously with 100% passengers paying gratuities.. 

 

If Royal wants to give them a raise for the additional work they are doing, that's an employment contract issue.  

[not-enough-cruising]

9 hours ago, seasidemama said:

Only glitch now is that Royal's fares are no longer low compared to the "competitive market". While this certainly was the logic in the not so distant past, I anticipate a lot more will be taking off mandatory gratuities (not just in Europe) now that the level of included service and amenities has dropped along with double/triple fares.

 

No, I don't blame the crew and I do believe they deserve to be paid well but I also think more people will be able to logic out any associated 'guilt' when paying more for less and expect Royal to pay their employees higher salaries based on higher revenue.

 

Also, I don't think staff will be as affected because there are less staff doing more work, so if gratuities really are distributed as per Royal's table, each employee should be getting a higher percentage of the overall gratuity pool. For example, cabin stewards used to service 10 rooms twice each day, and receive the share for 10 rooms. Now they service 20 rooms, once per day and receive the share for 20 rooms, so if even 50% of passengers remove gratuities, they would still get the same salary as previously with 100% passengers paying gratuities.. 

 

If Royal wants to give them a raise for the additional work they are doing, that's an employment contract issue.  

I agree, and an important part of your post is “IF gratuities are really distributed as per Royal’s table”. Very few believe that they are.  

[RedIguana]

20 hours ago, PompeySailor said:

I see what you did there

My post was removed 10ths ago

Quoting that needs a certain level of skill

Do you know Liam Neeson 😎

Question is was he at USA parking when they were cooking their books?

[yogimax]

4 hours ago, not-enough-cruising said:

I agree, and an important part of your post is “IF gratuities are really distributed as per Royal’s table”. Very few believe that they are.  

That would be you and a couple of other people on this board.  Unproven generalizations like "Very few believe that they are" are not very helpful to the discussion.

[d9704011]

3 minutes ago, yogimax said:

That would be you and a couple of other people on this board.  Unproven generalizations like "Very few believe that they are" are not very helpful to the discussion.

I believe the gratuities ARE distributed as Royal says they are.

[not-enough-cruising]

9 minutes ago, yogimax said:

That would be you and a couple of other people on this board.  Unproven generalizations like "Very few believe that they are" are not very helpful to the discussion.

The truth is quite often not “helpful to the discussion” nor does it promote a narrative that many believe to be false. 

These threads have existed online, this forum and others, since the inception of the auto gratuity concept. One would have to have their heads in the sand to not realize that the tides have turned and there is a large shift in the way this topic is viewed. I don’t believe my statement is an unproven generalization at all, thankfully we all can approach this as we see fit. 

[lenquixote66]

On 9/4/2023 at 2:18 AM, zimmerman said:

I know this is well trodden ground and highly emotive… I recall this particular gem popped up a few weeks back; someone commented on the fact there were huge queues at guest services and guests were getting their gratuities refunded. This was contested.

 

We’re just off a cruise.

one of the waiters (in a speciality restaurant) we were talking to told us that on the previous week’s cruise, 25% of customers had cancelled their gratuities.

 

he could obviously have been laying some foundation for our sympathies or trying to illicit some generosity from us. Who knows.

 

Was a European cruise sailing out of Italy (so maybe there could be some assertions made about cultural norms).

 

the other thing he told us, he claimed that some staff don’t get ANY salary. Their salaries are wholly dependent on the gratuity pool. So if 25% of guests retract them; their ‘salaries’ are effectively reduced by 25% for that week. I found this a bit alarming. Not sure, I always assumed they got something? Maybe the ‘room and food’ is the something?

My very first job (not on a cruise ship) was in 1959.I was told that there would not be a salary but I should expect tips.I cannot fathom a person in 2023 having a job without a salary.

[Mapleleafforever]

3 hours ago, not-enough-cruising said:

The truth is quite often not “helpful to the discussion” nor does it promote a narrative that many believe to be false. 

These threads have existed online, this forum and others, since the inception of the auto gratuity concept. One would have to have their heads in the sand to not realize that the tides have turned and there is a large shift in the way this topic is viewed. I don’t believe my statement is an unproven generalization at all, thankfully we all can approach this as we see fit. 

I agree with everything you just wrote here.