Can prepaid gratuities be removed once you're on the ship?

[not-enough-cruising]

1 hour ago, PTC DAWG said:

I leave $5 a night in my hotel room, they can choose to keep it, or pool it..I don’t care. 
 

I cruised during the envelope days, half empty MDR’s were common on the last night..

I cruised during the envelope days as well; however; I do not believe the current system fixes the shortcomings of the old system. 

[cruiseguy1016]

4 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

I cruised during the envelope days, half empty MDR’s were common on the last night..

 

That always used to make me laugh. I felt sorry for the staff but it amazed me how many people skipped the MDR on the last night.

[Engineroom Snipe]

2 hours ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

That always used to make me laugh. I felt sorry for the staff but it amazed me how many people skipped the MDR on the last night.

And it always seemed to be the picky, demanding, and overbearing ones that skipped that night.

 

You could just tell by the flourish of the hands and pointing fingers at the food or the servers as they tended to have an elevated voice for those around them to hear.

[not-enough-cruising]

3 hours ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

That always used to make me laugh. I felt sorry for the staff but it amazed me how many people skipped the MDR on the last night.

Now we skip the last night (or second to last night) to avoid the horrid conga line, towel waving, and self indulgent announcements

[Engineroom Snipe]

12 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Now we skip the last night (or second to last night) to avoid the horrid conga line, towel waving, and self indulgent announcements

I think at this point, I will do the following to not get in trouble.......🤐

[time4u2go]

45 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Now we skip the last night (or second to last night) to avoid the horrid conga line, towel waving, and self indulgent announcements

Agreed.  I feel the same way.

[rs45thompson]

8 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

I leave $5 a night in my hotel room, they can choose to keep it, or pool it..I don’t care. 
 

I cruised during the envelope days, half empty MDR’s were common on the last night..

I agree with tipping room steward, dinning room staff, bartenders.  I do that at home and when I travel on land.  I don't agree with tipping all the others.  Just my personal opinion.

[rs45thompson]

On 3/5/2024 at 4:26 PM, QTBabyNurse said:

WOW. I'm seriously embarrassed for those of you who choose to take a cruise but are too cheap to compensate the crew who service your needs. 

In my case I agree with tipping the room steward, bartenders and dinning room staff. I normally get great service and they deserve it. I disagree with them expanding it to others that they should be paying a wage too.  It should not be my responsibility to supplement the wages of those that wash the linen or vacuum the common area, etc.  I don't do it at a hotel and I shouldn't be doing it on a ship.  Everyone is entiled to their opinion and that is mine.  

In saying that I will admit that I prepay my gratuities so I don't have to worry about it.

[RobInMN]

2 hours ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Now we skip the last night (or second to last night) to avoid the horrid conga line, towel waving, and self indulgent announcements

Agree 100%! Especially the screaming into the PA that has horrendous audio quality. 

[QTBabyNurse]

36 minutes ago, rs45thompson said:

In my case I agree with tipping the room steward, bartenders and dinning room staff. I normally get great service and they deserve it. I disagree with them expanding it to others that they should be paying a wage too.  It should not be my responsibility to supplement the wages of those that wash the linen or vacuum the common area, etc.  I don't do it at a hotel and I shouldn't be doing it on a ship.  Everyone is entiled to their opinion and that is mine.  

In saying that I will admit that I prepay my gratuities so I don't have to worry about it.

Agreed!

[Ocean Boy]

2 hours ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Now we skip the last night (or second to last night) to avoid the horrid conga line, towel waving, and self indulgent announcements

Now we skip all the nights. We just do not like the whole MDR vibe.

[cruiseboy89130]

I think they should tip me because I'm an easy going customer!👍

[not-enough-cruising]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Now we skip all the nights. We just do not like the whole MDR vibe.

Yes! On Odyssey now, haven’t set foot in the MDR but for one breakfast. 

[2wheelin]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:51 PM, UNCFanatik said:

 

I fully understand that. That is not what I was referencing. I was referencing how it works on the bartender side from described in an earlier post; Bartender side NOT customer side

We don’t know how it is calculated on the bartender side though. They may get credited $1 for individual drinks but only 18% of the daily fee is added to the drink package so it would be a floating amount. Thus no $1.52 or whatever amount left over to wonder about.

Thus if the drink package is $80/da, the 18% is $14.40 no matter how many drinks are obtained. Maybe 15 which comes to 7%. The cruise line obviously has a formula to work that out so the bartender gets the credit amount for each drink no matter how much the actual percent of the tip. Not for us to worry about.

[Ocean Boy]

18 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Yes! On Odyssey now, haven’t set foot in the MDR but for one breakfast. 

Have a great time! I really like that ship. 8 nighter this week?

[not-enough-cruising]

59 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Have a great time! I really like that ship. 8 nighter this week?

Yes sir! 
First time on Odyssey, GREAT ship, not sure 8 days will be enough!

[Ocean Boy]

Just now, not-enough-cruising said:

Yes sir! 
First time on Odyssey, GREAT ship, not sure 8 days will be enough!

I never had any interest in Q class ships. I sailed Odyssey last year just because timing, itinerary, and price all came together. The ship totally won me over so booked again for this passed Feb. It is a great ship!

[not-enough-cruising]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

I never had any interest in Q class ships. I sailed Odyssey last year just because timing, itinerary, and price all came together. The ship totally won me over so booked again for this passed Feb. It is a great ship!

I am 100% with you, wife and I talking about following her over to Europe 

[AuDArtiste]

Edit: I think this might have been posted to the wrong thread. I apologise! 
Hey, it is totally up to you whether you tip or not! Just know it is just like Uber and other places if you don't tip don't expect the best service. I did DoorDash and Instacart for a short time and I will tell you right now I wouldn't touch an order that didn't have a minimum amount. If the person baited and switched on me I posted that ***** on forums of other delivery people in my area, so the person would effectively not get their food very fast. On cruises, they will make sure that you can't complain about them, but they are not going to go above and beyond for you or anyone in your cabin. My understanding is that they can see who is and isn't prepaying the tipping, or at least some can see the list and they make sure the non-tippers are known by all who your tip is shared with. I have heard it called the crew mafia. If you want extras there just won't be any available, but your neighbors will all get them because they are tipping. 

Second, that tip of $18 a day is spread amongst a lot of your service staff. So your room stewards are not the only ones getting it. They are getting a few dollars of it, your waiters are getting a few dollars of it, your bartenders are getting a few dollars of it. The list goes on of service people who get a cut of that $18. Therefore it isn't that much, since I will easily tip $20 for a dinner at a nice restaurant and you will be eating at those restaurants 3 or more times a day. As a non-drinker of alcohol, I am amazed at how much and how drunk cruisers can get and stay throughout their whole cruise. When I was working as a server in restaurants bars and bars I made a lot more per table than $18 in tips. Frankly, as a bartender or server in a bar, I would much rather have you not pre-pay your tips, because the tips start with $1 in the first round, and by round 5 everyone at the table is calling me sweetheart, and throwing 5s and $10 and even more at me. Monday-night football was the best for that! Damn, I could make $100.00 or more off just one table of drunks, and I had a whole section of tables filled with drunks! Most servers don't want the tipping to go away in the US and just get a living wage because they can make a lot more in one night working at a bar or restaurant than an office worker makes in a week or 2. That said, the cruise ship service people don't make that much off of the tips. It just brings their wages up to a living. They are not going home with huge rolls of cash at the end of the cruise as we used to from a single night serving drinks in a bar or serving food in a fancy restaurant. 

Even on our first cruise back in 1977, we left that much in an envelope to be shared by all. Here is the deal, if the cruise lines start paying everyone so no tips exist you all are going to be paying a hell of a lot more than $18 a day more for your cruises. So if I were to go out to eat every day for 7 days and tip $10 for breakfast and lunch each and $20 for dinner that would be $280 for just the waiters serving me my meals. Then another $140 for $20 a day for the stewards who clean up after everyone's dirty bums would be $420 in tips, and then the bartenders which would probably be for most cruisers $20 - $40 a day or $140 - $280 in tips. I mean this is just what you would tip in the US if you went out and did all the things that you do during a day on a cruise. That $18 is nothing! 

 

The way I look at is I prepay the tip knowing that each person is only getting a dollar or two, and then I make sure that those who go above and beyond are getting extra tips beyond that. That said, I don't drink alcohol, I don't like coffee, I don't drink sodas, I like tea, but generally won't think to order. I am someone who downs the water.  I can afford to share the wealth with the crew since I am not wasting it on what I see as "stupid stuff". That is my opinion of course! 

Edited March 8 by AuDArtiste
I think it posted to the wrong thread. Not sure! Just an apology!

[cruiseguy1016]

37 minutes ago, AuDArtiste said:

Edit: I think this might have been posted to the wrong thread. I apologise! 
Hey, it is totally up to you whether you tip or not! Just know it is just like Uber and other places if you don't tip don't expect the best service. I did DoorDash and Instacart for a short time and I will tell you right now I wouldn't touch an order that didn't have a minimum amount. If the person baited and switched on me I posted that ***** on forums of other delivery people in my area, so the person would effectively not get their food very fast. On cruises, they will make sure that you can't complain about them, but they are not going to go above and beyond for you or anyone in your cabin. My understanding is that they can see who is and isn't prepaying the tipping, or at least some can see the list and they make sure the non-tippers are known by all who your tip is shared with. I have heard it called the crew mafia. If you want extras there just won't be any available, but your neighbors will all get them because they are tipping. 

Second, that tip of $18 a day is spread amongst a lot of your service staff. So your room stewards are not the only ones getting it. They are getting a few dollars of it, your waiters are getting a few dollars of it, your bartenders are getting a few dollars of it. The list goes on of service people who get a cut of that $18. Therefore it isn't that much, since I will easily tip $20 for a dinner at a nice restaurant and you will be eating at those restaurants 3 or more times a day. As a non-drinker of alcohol, I am amazed at how much and how drunk cruisers can get and stay throughout their whole cruise. When I was working as a server in restaurants bars and bars I made a lot more per table than $18 in tips. Frankly, as a bartender or server in a bar, I would much rather have you not pre-pay your tips, because the tips start with $1 in the first round, and by round 5 everyone at the table is calling me sweetheart, and throwing 5s and $10 and even more at me. Monday-night football was the best for that! Damn, I could make $100.00 or more off just one table of drunks, and I had a whole section of tables filled with drunks! Most servers don't want the tipping to go away in the US and just get a living wage because they can make a lot more in one night working at a bar or restaurant than an office worker makes in a week or 2. That said, the cruise ship service people don't make that much off of the tips. It just brings their wages up to a living. They are not going home with huge rolls of cash at the end of the cruise as we used to from a single night serving drinks in a bar or serving food in a fancy restaurant. 

Even on our first cruise back in 1977, we left that much in an envelope to be shared by all. Here is the deal, if the cruise lines start paying everyone so no tips exist you all are going to be paying a hell of a lot more than $18 a day more for your cruises. So if I were to go out to eat every day for 7 days and tip $10 for breakfast and lunch each and $20 for dinner that would be $280 for just the waiters serving me my meals. Then another $140 for $20 a day for the stewards who clean up after everyone's dirty bums would be $420 in tips, and then the bartenders which would probably be for most cruisers $20 - $40 a day or $140 - $280 in tips. I mean this is just what you would tip in the US if you went out and did all the things that you do during a day on a cruise. That $18 is nothing! 

 

The way I look at is I prepay the tip knowing that each person is only getting a dollar or two, and then I make sure that those who go above and beyond are getting extra tips beyond that. That said, I don't drink alcohol, I don't like coffee, I don't drink sodas, I like tea, but generally won't think to order. I am someone who downs the water.  I can afford to share the wealth with the crew since I am not wasting it on what I see as "stupid stuff". That is my opinion of course! 

 

Welcome to Cruise Critic. You sure got your money's worth on your first post.

[cruiseboy89130]

7 hours ago, AuDArtiste said:

Edit: I think this might have been posted to the wrong thread. I apologise! 
Hey, it is totally up to you whether you tip or not! Just know it is just like Uber and other places if you don't tip don't expect the best service. I did DoorDash and Instacart for a short time and I will tell you right now I wouldn't touch an order that didn't have a minimum amount. If the person baited and switched on me I posted that ***** on forums of other delivery people in my area, so the person would effectively not get their food very fast. On cruises, they will make sure that you can't complain about them, but they are not going to go above and beyond for you or anyone in your cabin. My understanding is that they can see who is and isn't prepaying the tipping, or at least some can see the list and they make sure the non-tippers are known by all who your tip is shared with. I have heard it called the crew mafia. If you want extras there just won't be any available, but your neighbors will all get them because they are tipping. 

Second, that tip of $18 a day is spread amongst a lot of your service staff. So your room stewards are not the only ones getting it. They are getting a few dollars of it, your waiters are getting a few dollars of it, your bartenders are getting a few dollars of it. The list goes on of service people who get a cut of that $18. Therefore it isn't that much, since I will easily tip $20 for a dinner at a nice restaurant and you will be eating at those restaurants 3 or more times a day. As a non-drinker of alcohol, I am amazed at how much and how drunk cruisers can get and stay throughout their whole cruise. When I was working as a server in restaurants bars and bars I made a lot more per table than $18 in tips. Frankly, as a bartender or server in a bar, I would much rather have you not pre-pay your tips, because the tips start with $1 in the first round, and by round 5 everyone at the table is calling me sweetheart, and throwing 5s and $10 and even more at me. Monday-night football was the best for that! Damn, I could make $100.00 or more off just one table of drunks, and I had a whole section of tables filled with drunks! Most servers don't want the tipping to go away in the US and just get a living wage because they can make a lot more in one night working at a bar or restaurant than an office worker makes in a week or 2. That said, the cruise ship service people don't make that much off of the tips. It just brings their wages up to a living. They are not going home with huge rolls of cash at the end of the cruise as we used to from a single night serving drinks in a bar or serving food in a fancy restaurant. 

Even on our first cruise back in 1977, we left that much in an envelope to be shared by all. Here is the deal, if the cruise lines start paying everyone so no tips exist you all are going to be paying a hell of a lot more than $18 a day more for your cruises. So if I were to go out to eat every day for 7 days and tip $10 for breakfast and lunch each and $20 for dinner that would be $280 for just the waiters serving me my meals. Then another $140 for $20 a day for the stewards who clean up after everyone's dirty bums would be $420 in tips, and then the bartenders which would probably be for most cruisers $20 - $40 a day or $140 - $280 in tips. I mean this is just what you would tip in the US if you went out and did all the things that you do during a day on a cruise. That $18 is nothing! 

 

The way I look at is I prepay the tip knowing that each person is only getting a dollar or two, and then I make sure that those who go above and beyond are getting extra tips beyond that. That said, I don't drink alcohol, I don't like coffee, I don't drink sodas, I like tea, but generally won't think to order. I am someone who downs the water.  I can afford to share the wealth with the crew since I am not wasting it on what I see as "stupid stuff". That is my opinion of course! 

Just remove before you leave the ship #problemsolved

[QTBabyNurse]

9 hours ago, AuDArtiste said:

Edit: I think this might have been posted to the wrong thread. I apologise! 
Hey, it is totally up to you whether you tip or not! Just know it is just like Uber and other places if you don't tip don't expect the best service. I did DoorDash and Instacart for a short time and I will tell you right now I wouldn't touch an order that didn't have a minimum amount. If the person baited and switched on me I posted that ***** on forums of other delivery people in my area, so the person would effectively not get their food very fast. On cruises, they will make sure that you can't complain about them, but they are not going to go above and beyond for you or anyone in your cabin. My understanding is that they can see who is and isn't prepaying the tipping, or at least some can see the list and they make sure the non-tippers are known by all who your tip is shared with. I have heard it called the crew mafia. If you want extras there just won't be any available, but your neighbors will all get them because they are tipping. 

Second, that tip of $18 a day is spread amongst a lot of your service staff. So your room stewards are not the only ones getting it. They are getting a few dollars of it, your waiters are getting a few dollars of it, your bartenders are getting a few dollars of it. The list goes on of service people who get a cut of that $18. Therefore it isn't that much, since I will easily tip $20 for a dinner at a nice restaurant and you will be eating at those restaurants 3 or more times a day. As a non-drinker of alcohol, I am amazed at how much and how drunk cruisers can get and stay throughout their whole cruise. When I was working as a server in restaurants bars and bars I made a lot more per table than $18 in tips. Frankly, as a bartender or server in a bar, I would much rather have you not pre-pay your tips, because the tips start with $1 in the first round, and by round 5 everyone at the table is calling me sweetheart, and throwing 5s and $10 and even more at me. Monday-night football was the best for that! Damn, I could make $100.00 or more off just one table of drunks, and I had a whole section of tables filled with drunks! Most servers don't want the tipping to go away in the US and just get a living wage because they can make a lot more in one night working at a bar or restaurant than an office worker makes in a week or 2. That said, the cruise ship service people don't make that much off of the tips. It just brings their wages up to a living. They are not going home with huge rolls of cash at the end of the cruise as we used to from a single night serving drinks in a bar or serving food in a fancy restaurant. 

Even on our first cruise back in 1977, we left that much in an envelope to be shared by all. Here is the deal, if the cruise lines start paying everyone so no tips exist you all are going to be paying a hell of a lot more than $18 a day more for your cruises. So if I were to go out to eat every day for 7 days and tip $10 for breakfast and lunch each and $20 for dinner that would be $280 for just the waiters serving me my meals. Then another $140 for $20 a day for the stewards who clean up after everyone's dirty bums would be $420 in tips, and then the bartenders which would probably be for most cruisers $20 - $40 a day or $140 - $280 in tips. I mean this is just what you would tip in the US if you went out and did all the things that you do during a day on a cruise. That $18 is nothing! 

 

The way I look at is I prepay the tip knowing that each person is only getting a dollar or two, and then I make sure that those who go above and beyond are getting extra tips beyond that. That said, I don't drink alcohol, I don't like coffee, I don't drink sodas, I like tea, but generally won't think to order. I am someone who downs the water.  I can afford to share the wealth with the crew since I am not wasting it on what I see as "stupid stuff". That is my opinion of course! 

What a great post! Totally agree! 👏

In addition, cruise passengers who think that the cruise line should just take some of their profits and pay their service staff a livable wage and not rely on tips, clearly have no idea how businesses work. These must be the same people who thought paying fast food workers $15-$20/hour would be a great idea. Now you're paying $24 for a single fast food meal at Five Guys! Businesses are NOT going to eat into their profits to pay low level workers a lot of money. People advocating for this are just very naïve. The costs WILL be passed onto the consumer as always. That's just a fact. So unless you want to pay double for your cruise fare... be grateful for the tipping policy as it stands. 

 

My view is that if you can afford a cruise, cough up the extra cash for tips and don't stiff the staff who serve you..in your feeble attempt to prove a point.

[UNCFanatik]

31 minutes ago, QTBabyNurse said:

What a great post! Totally agree! 👏

In addition, cruise passengers who think that the cruise line should just take some of their profits and pay their service staff a livable wage and not rely on tips, clearly have no idea how businesses work. These must be the same people who thought paying fast food workers $15-$20/hour would be a great idea. Now you're paying $24 for a single fast food meal at Five Guys! Businesses are NOT going to eat into their profits to pay low level workers a lot of money. People advocating for this are just very naïve. The costs WILL be passed onto the consumer as always. That's just a fact. So unless you want to pay double for your cruise fare... be grateful for the tipping policy as it stands. 

 

My view is that if you can afford a cruise, cough up the extra cash for tips and don't stiff the staff who serve you..in your feeble attempt to prove a point.

 

I understand economics just fine

 

Its been my position all along to let Royal do away with auto-gratuities and pass along the extra cost to be included in cruise fare and let the free market sort it out. But they never will because they know economics as well. Its better for them to have customers to spend for example $5000 on a cruise for a family of 4 and remove their auto gratuities than have that same family choose another form of vacation and spend $0 with Royal. Cruise line math is $5000>$0. Also, if less people cruise then what happens to crew levels and hiring additional crew? 

 

No one if stiffing anyone. Royal charges mandatory tips on many of their products on board. Drink packages that are bought include a mandatory gratuity of 18% before service is even rendered. Why should I be charged a mandatory 18% tip on a $8 beer for someone just to hand it to me. Thats $1.44

 

If you can afford a cruise, you have already spent a considerable amount of money with Royal and part of your cruise fare goes to crew wages. Royal keeps raising prices because of high demand and no one should feel obligates to pay anything beyond their cruise fare

 

 

[Ocean Boy]

1 hour ago, QTBabyNurse said:

What a great post! Totally agree! 👏

In addition, cruise passengers who think that the cruise line should just take some of their profits and pay their service staff a livable wage and not rely on tips, clearly have no idea how businesses work. These must be the same people who thought paying fast food workers $15-$20/hour would be a great idea. Now you're paying $24 for a single fast food meal at Five Guys! Businesses are NOT going to eat into their profits to pay low level workers a lot of money. People advocating for this are just very naïve. The costs WILL be passed onto the consumer as always. That's just a fact. So unless you want to pay double for your cruise fare... be grateful for the tipping policy as it stands. 

 

My view is that if you can afford a cruise, cough up the extra cash for tips and don't stiff the staff who serve you..in your feeble attempt to prove a point.

Actually, it seems that you are the one who doesn't understand economics. It is all about supply and demand. The $24 fast food meals won't continue to cost $24 if people don't buy them just as cruises, that are now costing me more than double what I used to pay not long ago, would come down in price if people stop buying them. 

 

Now, whether or not someone should be making $20 an hour to hand burgers across a counter is a whole different matter. AND,  even at that pay rate they still have a tip jar on the counter.

[AuDArtiste]

2 hours ago, UNCFanatik said:

 

I understand economics just fine

 

Its been my position all along to let Royal do away with auto-gratuities and pass along the extra cost to be included in cruise fare and let the free market sort it out. But they never will because they know economics as well. Its better for them to have customers to spend for example $5000 on a cruise for a family of 4 and remove their auto gratuities than have that same family choose another form of vacation and spend $0 with Royal. Cruise line math is $5000>$0. Also, if less people cruise then what happens to crew levels and hiring additional crew? 

 

No one if stiffing anyone. Royal charges mandatory tips on many of their products on board. Drink packages that are bought include a mandatory gratuity of 18% before service is even rendered. Why should I be charged a mandatory 18% tip on a $8 beer for someone just to hand it to me. Thats $1.44

 

If you can afford a cruise, you have already spent a considerable amount of money with Royal and part of your cruise fare goes to crew wages. Royal keeps raising prices because of high demand and no one should feel obligates to pay anything beyond their cruise fare

________________

The reason you are being auto charged for gratuities of 18% is because if they don't auto the gratuity, then the cheapscapes will either under tip or not tip at all. Yet, service industry workers are still taxed as if they got the tip. Also, since I don't have a problem with the gratuities or the auto charging of them, I am not going to stop cruising. The reason RCI and all the other companies won't stop charging it is because there is just a small percentage of people who seriously don't like it. You are welcome to stop cruising and show them, but it won't help! RCI is at 119% bookings for 2024. If you book under a guarranteed fare and not a specific room, you might get bumped just like airplanes. Cruises are overselling, and first to pay in full and then check-in on the app and get assigned a room get the vacation and the 19% that lollygagger on paying & setting up the app and checking in before the cruise will be sent emails stating that they will be getting a refund of their deposits and won't be able to sail. 

Therefore go ahead and just boycott them and see where that gets you. I can guarrantee you if you do win and the gratuities go away, and they raise those wages... The cost of your cruise will go up a lot more than 18%. 

My question is, if you know that the drinks package is $$$+18% then that is the price of the drinks package. I mean, why are you upset you know that is simply the cost of the drinks package. The cost to sail as a family of 4 is $5000 and you also know there is an 18% fee added to that, then the cost to sail is $5900 and not $5000. What is the difference between RCI breaking it down for you that it is $5k + $900 for crew bonus and just charging you $5900? Your argument makes no sense. 

Frankly, it still costs you less to travel than it does for me. I travel solo, so everytime I cruise or travel for that matter I pay for 2 people instead of one person. When I was looking at my next posible cruise for just me, I was going to be paying for 14 days with a balcony $3800 + Gratuity of 684 or a total of $4500 for just one person, so I don't know why you are complaining that it is going to cost you $5900 for a family of 4. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about my solo tax, it is what it is. I mean if I was going to complain it would be that they allow rug rats on cruise ships, but that is just me. Frankly, paying double to not have to share my room with someone is worth every penny!