New rules for wheelchair users

[Selbourne]

I’ve just watched the clip. P&O really are clueless when it comes to handling issues such as this. They just sit back and allow themselves to be beaten up. When an organisation like the BBC is on your case, and asks the same question 3 times, you ignore it at your peril. I have long said that the head of IT at P&O should have been fired years ago. I’m now adding the head of PR to that list. Frankly, with the appalling way that they have handled this issue they deserve all the bad publicity that they are getting. 

[9265359]

34 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

nteresting to see that P&O didn't say why they had changed the policy even though they had been asked 3 times!

 

The only policy change seems to be actually enforcing the policy.

 

If you look at the policy from 2020 (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (archive.org)) it said - 

If you need to bring a wheelchair or mobility scooter on board with you, it is essential that you let us know at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.

...

Mobility scooters will only be permitted on board if guests have booked an accessible cabin, or selected suite or mini-suite.  Mobility scooters cannot be accepted in standard cabins. A list of the accessible cabins can be found in the accessible cabin section. 

...

 

The policy applies to all scooter makes and models.  Mobility scooters must be declared at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.  If you have not informed us that you are bringing a mobility scooter and have not booked an approved cabin, your mobility scooter will be denied boarding.

...

If you are taking a mobility scooter on board in an approved cabin please ensure you have checked the cabin door width as the scooter must be able to fit through to enable it to be stored safely so as not to impede a safe evacuation. Details of cabin door widths can be found in the cabin door widths section.  Your mobility scooter will be denied boarding if you are not occupying one of the approved cabins, or does not fit through the cabin door.

...

P&O Cruises define a mobility scooter as a three or four wheeled electrical or battery powered scooter designed for a person with restricted mobility. 

...

All mobility scooters must be stored inside your stateroom when not in use.  They must not be left outside your cabin.

 

And from looking at the current policy (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (pocruises.com)) nothing seems to have changed.

[Selbourne]

7 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

The only policy change seems to be actually enforcing the policy.

 

If you look at the policy from 2020 (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (archive.org)) it said - 

If you need to bring a wheelchair or mobility scooter on board with you, it is essential that you let us know at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.

...

Mobility scooters will only be permitted on board if guests have booked an accessible cabin, or selected suite or mini-suite.  Mobility scooters cannot be accepted in standard cabins. A list of the accessible cabins can be found in the accessible cabin section. 

...

 

The policy applies to all scooter makes and models.  Mobility scooters must be declared at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.  If you have not informed us that you are bringing a mobility scooter and have not booked an approved cabin, your mobility scooter will be denied boarding.

...

If you are taking a mobility scooter on board in an approved cabin please ensure you have checked the cabin door width as the scooter must be able to fit through to enable it to be stored safely so as not to impede a safe evacuation. Details of cabin door widths can be found in the cabin door widths section.  Your mobility scooter will be denied boarding if you are not occupying one of the approved cabins, or does not fit through the cabin door.

...

P&O Cruises define a mobility scooter as a three or four wheeled electrical or battery powered scooter designed for a person with restricted mobility. 

...

All mobility scooters must be stored inside your stateroom when not in use.  They must not be left outside your cabin.

 

And from looking at the current policy (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (pocruises.com)) nothing seems to have changed.

The policy with regards to Mobility Scooters has been in force for some years. The recent change concerns powered wheelchairs. Users of these now have to have a fully accessible cabin. That’s a recent change to the above. 

Edited September 11 by Selbourne

[molecrochip]

I agree, we know what has changed but not why, now, or why just U.K. brands.

[TigerB]

2 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

The only policy change seems to be actually enforcing the policy.

 

If you look at the policy from 2020 (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (archive.org)) it said - 

If you need to bring a wheelchair or mobility scooter on board with you, it is essential that you let us know at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.

...

Mobility scooters will only be permitted on board if guests have booked an accessible cabin, or selected suite or mini-suite.  Mobility scooters cannot be accepted in standard cabins. A list of the accessible cabins can be found in the accessible cabin section. 

...

 

The policy applies to all scooter makes and models.  Mobility scooters must be declared at the time of booking or as soon as the need is known.  If you have not informed us that you are bringing a mobility scooter and have not booked an approved cabin, your mobility scooter will be denied boarding.

...

If you are taking a mobility scooter on board in an approved cabin please ensure you have checked the cabin door width as the scooter must be able to fit through to enable it to be stored safely so as not to impede a safe evacuation. Details of cabin door widths can be found in the cabin door widths section.  Your mobility scooter will be denied boarding if you are not occupying one of the approved cabins, or does not fit through the cabin door.

...

P&O Cruises define a mobility scooter as a three or four wheeled electrical or battery powered scooter designed for a person with restricted mobility. 

...

All mobility scooters must be stored inside your stateroom when not in use.  They must not be left outside your cabin.

 

And from looking at the current policy (Mobility Aids & Equipment | P&O Cruises (pocruises.com)) nothing seems to have changed.

 

No, as has already been stated by @Selbourne, they are not just enforcing a policy of four years ago, they have changed the policy to now include power chairs. Anyway, the policy states 'accessible cabin'; it does not differentiate between a partially accessible cabin and a fully accessible one. The former being wholly suitable for our lass's power chair, before P&O decided it wasn't.

[AchileLauro]

With regard to potential sources of ignition and/ or the risk of a lithium ion thermal runaway what is the difference between a mobility scooter and a powered wheelchair?

[Selbourne]

7 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

With regard to potential sources of ignition and/ or the risk of a lithium ion thermal runaway what is the difference between a mobility scooter and a powered wheelchair?

Presumably no difference. However, we can only assume that this is the reason for the change. P&O, in their infinite wisdom, aren’t explaining why the policy has changed, or the sudden imposition of this new rule, even when asked 3 times by the BBC 🙄

[emam]

Could people leaving them in the passage way have anything to do with it? They have got to be a hazard in an emergency (along with buggies). Actually they are a hazard at any time.  I know that won't apply to walking sticks. 

[grapau27]

16 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Presumably no difference. However, we can only assume that this is the reason for the change. P&O, in their infinite wisdom, aren’t explaining why the policy has changed, or the sudden imposition of this new rule, even when asked 3 times by the BBC 🙄

I remember reading about a motorised scooter fire in the atrium on Iona several months ago.

I wonder if this had any influence in P&Os current policy?.

[Megabear2]

13 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Presumably no difference. However, we can only assume that this is the reason for the change. P&O, in their infinite wisdom, aren’t explaining why the policy has changed, or the sudden imposition of this new rule, even when asked 3 times by the BBC 🙄

Could it be they don’t have a valid and genuine answer, so actually couldn't give it?  All this reminds me of the claim on your insurance fiasco with refused boarding for the medical declaration about coughs etc which no insurer actually covered, ie ill conceived without any foundation in facts.

[Megabear2]

For those mentioning the Iona incident in November 2023 here is the link to that discussion. Having just reread it to refresh my memory I noted at the time that under law there is, and presumably remains, a very important distinction between an electrical powered wheelchair and a mobility scooter.  As P&O/Cunard are now combining the two under one category they do seem to be sailing pretty close to the wind on their handling of the issue.

 

Towards the end of the thread the owner of the mobility scooter involved explains what happened.  Certainly very interesting discussions and considerable difference of views displayed by CC members.

 

 

[TigerB]

1 hour ago, emam said:

Could people leaving them in the passage way have anything to do with it? They have got to be a hazard in an emergency (along with buggies). Actually they are a hazard at any time.  I know that won't apply to walking sticks. 

 

That forms part of the policy from 2020, mentioned in post #102, in that mobility scooters should be stored in the cabin; it appears P&O are, as @9265359 writes in that post, now enforcing that policy to the letter.  The trouble is, they are now including power wheelchairs in the same category as mobility scooters, and using a 'one size fits all' approach when, as I have alluded to in previous posts, one size doesn't fit all.

[AchileLauro]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

For those mentioning the Iona incident in November 2023 here is the link to that discussion. Having just reread it to refresh my memory I noted at the time that under law there is, and presumably remains, a very important distinction between an electrical powered wheelchair and a mobility scooter.  As P&O/Cunard are now combining the two under one category they do seem to be sailing pretty close to the wind on their handling of the issue.

 

Towards the end of the thread the owner of the mobility scooter involved explains what happened.  Certainly very interesting discussions and considerable difference of views displayed by CC members.

 

 

Speaking as an ex-fire service inspecting/enforcing officer who dealt with hospitals, care premises and other sleeping risks from a fire safety perspective there is absolutely no difference between a mobility scooter and a powered wheelchair. Perhaps you are thinking about the difference as regards use on pavements and the roads.

 

Incidentally I formally brought the very serious safety issue of mobility scooters causing obstruction and posing a fire risk due to charging in corridor escape routes to the attention of the safety officer on board Oriana more than twelve years ago. Things improved slightly after that but I still think P&O have been very slow to properly address the matter.

 

 

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, TigerB said:

 

That forms part of the policy from 2020, mentioned in post #102, in that mobility scooters should be stored in the cabin; it appears P&O are, as @9265359 writes in that post, now enforcing that policy to the letter.  The trouble is, they are now including power wheelchairs in the same category as mobility scooters, and using a 'one size fits all' approach when, as I have alluded to in previous posts, one size doesn't fit all.

There is little doubt that a powechair, with its shorter wheelbase, will be far more manoeuvrable than a scooter, and much more likely to cope in a partially accessible cabin. But common sense and P&O management is not something you often see.

As for scooters and wheelchairs littering the corridors, this is something I rarely see nowadays, and certainly not on P&O, but we do see frequently on Princess.

[crompton21]

There appear to be some rules that mean that this change can certainly be interpreted as non discriminatory with a clear safety message being available to justify them.  That may be the truth of it but, as others have posted, it doesn't appear to be a constant message across the Carnival brands.

Cynically, if you are trying to reposition a brand to appeal to a younger demographic, legally reducing the number of wheelchairs/scooters etc would possibly achieve a shift in brand perception when on board.  Alternatively, it may be nothing other than a safety related matter, something that we should all be thankful of.

 

[Megabear2]

3 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

Speaking as an ex-fire service inspecting/enforcing officer who dealt with hospitals, care premises and other sleeping risks from a fire safety perspective there is absolutely no difference between a mobility scooter and a powered wheelchair. Perhaps you are thinking about the difference as regards use on pavements and the roads.

 

Incidentally I formally brought the very serious safety issue of mobility scooters causing obstruction and posing a fire risk due to charging in corridor escape routes to the attention of the safety officer on board Oriana more than twelve years ago. Things improved slightly after that but I still think P&O have been very slow to properly address the matter.

 

 

No I'm not thinking of the difference as regards their use.  I am referring to powered wheelchairs with a specific definition as a "medical aid" and as such being covered by laws on disability.  Mobility scooters are not officially "medical aids". The distinction is that the powered wheelchair is effectively an extension of the person using it, ie they cannot have any form of mobility without that aid due to their medical condition. A very complex subject covered here (actually updated 6 days ago so very current).

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/assistive-technology-definition-and-safe-use/assistive-technology-definition-and-safe-use

[AchileLauro]

No mobility scooters are not a medical aid, they are a mobility aid, but from a fire safety perspective there is absolutely no difference between a mobility scooter, an electric wheelchair or for that matter an ebike.

 

You are absolutely spot on  when you say is a very complex subject, in fact the whole issue of disability and disabled evacuation  is an extremely complex subject. I really don't envy the job that P&O has to adequately address it, while at the same time complying fully with legal requirements and not upsetting their loyal long term customers who have become accustomed to how things were previously.

 

I also get the points that crompton21 makes about it possibly being seen as an attempt to change the demographics of the company but to be honest I simply don't think that's the case.

I believe that the simple honest truth is that for many years cruising has been promoted as being a way that the disabled and in particular those with mobility issues have been able to holiday or travel the world in comfort and with relative ease. Unfortunately it became too popular and while it was considered O.K. in the past, that is until it was closely scrutinised and someone asked are we really able to evacuate such numbers of disabled persons in the event of an emergency. Or, have we been properly carrying out our duties of identifying everyone that may require additional assistance in an emergency.

Don't forget that emergency evacuation of the disabled or those with limited mobility is very labour intensive and that cruise lines have actually reduced crew numbers in some cases.

[9265359]

1 hour ago, AchileLauro said:

mobility scooters are not a medical aid, they are a mobility aid

 

That definition is not correct, as it depends on who is using it.

 

If you have a disability that is assisted by using a mobility scooter then it is a medical device ("aid" isn't the word generally used).

 

If you don't have a disability but use a mobility scooter because you don't want to walk then it isn't a medical device.

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, AchileLauro said:

No mobility scooters are not a medical aid, they are a mobility aid, but from a fire safety perspective there is absolutely no difference between a mobility scooter, an electric wheelchair or for that matter an ebike.

 

You are absolutely spot on  when you say is a very complex subject, in fact the whole issue of disability and disabled evacuation  is an extremely complex subject. I really don't envy the job that P&O has to adequately address it, while at the same time complying fully with legal requirements and not upsetting their loyal long term customers who have become accustomed to how things were previously.

 

I also get the points that crompton21 makes about it possibly being seen as an attempt to change the demographics of the company but to be honest I simply don't think that's the case.

I believe that the simple honest truth is that for many years cruising has been promoted as being a way that the disabled and in particular those with mobility issues have been able to holiday or travel the world in comfort and with relative ease. Unfortunately it became too popular and while it was considered O.K. in the past, that is until it was closely scrutinised and someone asked are we really able to evacuate such numbers of disabled persons in the event of an emergency. Or, have we been properly carrying out our duties of identifying everyone that may require additional assistance in an emergency.

Don't forget that emergency evacuation of the disabled or those with limited mobility is very labour intensive and that cruise lines have actually reduced crew numbers in some cases.

All very true and sensible but as mentioned earlier (including by moley) why the disparity amongst all the Carnival brands, ie Princess and the "mothership" Carnival brand operate ex UK cruises but only P&O and Cunard are operating this new policy to date.

 

I and Selbourne have received details of the new updated policy from Cunard and as such would have expected to see this discussion on the CC forum board over there too, yet we have nothing.  I'd be interested to see what the US/Australian/Canadian contingents are receiving and how it's being dealt with under their rights and laws, yet zilch.

 

I hasten to add thankfully I only get the emails as my husband uses a walking stick on occasion so am not directly affected by this electric battery situation.

[mickyc123]

I see this on another page and thought I would share as it cover various bits people have been discussing

 

 

The point people are missing is the number of evac chairs per ship is solely governed by the fire safety risk report
They would also look at potential fire risk since the last certificate and any incidents

When they comply with this they gain a upto date safety certificate to sail 

They would also need to follow various obligations to meet the needs of there own insurance policy 

Without safety certificate and insurance they can’t sail at all

The other small point that crossed my mind is was over the many years we have sailed you couldn’t take various items on the ship as they are classed as a Fire risk

Over the last few years more and more devices that have bigger battery powers are regularly on each cruise 
When you also factor each of these battery powered device has a high powered charging device which stays in the cabin

 

we have all seen the incident on Iona where a battery caught fire and have see numerous posts across the groups of chargers failing mid cruise.Most advice I see is go to see reception they may help

 

i would have thought each of these would have been logged and this again would factor into the risk assessment 

Would other situations happen that we are unaware of??

When you factor the points above  and I am by no means a expert but the Potential risk of fire must surely go up 
Are all the batteries and chargers fully safety tested to our standards ??

Do feel terribly sorry for those that have been cancelled as a result though
I am sure P&O wouldn’t have taken this step without no other option as it’s obvious the easy solution is to just honour previous booked cruises under the old regulations 

people are also saying why others Companies are following the same rules as Cunard/P&O 

I can only think it can be due to where most of the cruise line base themselves for the Fire risk report and subsequent Insurance policy they would need to fall inline with as all would need to adhere to the same maritime laws

 

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

4 minutes ago, mickyc123 said:

The point people are missing is the number of evac chairs per ship is solely governed by the fire safety risk report
They would also look at potential fire risk since the last certificate and any incidents

When they comply with this they gain a upto date safety certificate to sail 

They would also need to follow various obligations to meet the needs of there own insurance policy 

Without safety certificate and insurance they can’t sail at all

If this was the case and fact surely the P&O representative on television yesterday would have stated this rather than not answer the question?

 

Why would the two companies risk their reputations if there is a genuine and reasonable reason to institute this policy, particularly at such short notice, after all they are asking people to commit to their cruise two or more years in advance and are causing much distress to people very close to sailing date in some cases.

[mickyc123]

I thought the exact same when I read it and processed what the person was saying 

 

the only answer my wife and I could come up with is

 

say they come out and say we have to amend our safety  policy as above whatever way they dress it up

 

it could be turned round  by various people in the press as P&O admit huge safety concern with cruising after  revising safety procedure in shock announcement 

 

have you cruised and felt unsafe ? Bla bla bla

So it was unsafe in July when I cruised

it would damage the industry

 

the only other point I would say is why would P&O have to make this snap decision and implement it straight away.

 

As the  person said 

the easy option would have been to honour all existing bookings and phase in the new process with all new booking 

 

 

I do think it hasn’t been handled very well but unfortunately no one knows the complete truth and I doubt we ever will

and the other thing P&O ways of dealing with things and getting the message out have never been the best

Edited September 12 by mickyc123

[Megabear2]

51 minutes ago, mickyc123 said:

I thought the exact same when I read it and processed what the person was saying 

 

the only answer my wife and I could come up with is

 

say they come out and say we have to amend our safety  policy as above whatever way they dress it up

 

it could be turned round  by various people in the press as P&O admit huge safety concern with cruising after  revising safety procedure in shock announcement 

 

have you cruised and felt unsafe ? Bla bla bla

So it was unsafe in July when I cruised

it would damage the industry

 

the only other point I would say is why would P&O have to make this snap decision and implement it straight away.

 

As the  person said 

the easy option would have been to honour all existing bookings and phase in the new process with all new booking 

 

 

I do think it hasn’t been handled very well but unfortunately no one knows the complete truth and I doubt we ever will

and the other thing P&O ways of dealing with things and getting the message out have never been the best

All feasible but no mention of Cunard anywhere unless Carnival wants P&O to be the bad guy.  

 

If all this is true eventually someone will force it out.

[Dabra]

We have just tried to book a cruise on Arcadia. We have always had a folding wheelchair in the standard cabin. Latest news is that all wheelchair users full time or casual need an evacuation chair assistance. We could not book as there were none left. Not sure if you can bring your own as the agent talked about a rollator. She checked on Aurora for next April and that had none left.

[david63]

On the basis that P&O are selling cruises two, or more years, in advance has anybody heard or seen what happens if during the intervening period a passenger's circumstances change and need an evac chair. Will P&O give a full refund of all monies paid when you have to cancel or will they just refer to the T&Cs and say "tuff" and keep the money?

 

I doubt that many, if any at all, travel policies would cover such a situation.

Edited September 12 by david63