Port Overcrowding and Corporate Responsibility

[Mr. Grizb]

Just wanted to share a thought here in case it helps someone down the line. I and my sister recently returned from a 10-day cruise on the Norwegian Viva. We loved the ship and the crew and the specialty dining really surprised me in a positive way. However, there was one thing that Norwegian did that was pretty harmful. Santorini is a town of 15,000 people, and it is heavily dependent on tourism for income. Norwegian docked two large ships in the harbor, with a third Regent ship (a Norwegian subsidiary brand) also in the harbor on the same day. So Norwegian was singularly putting about 9,000 tourists onshore (not including any crew-members who may have chosen to disembark) on a single day. Fortunately, my sister and I knew better than to try to go up to the town, but the pier itself was so overcrowded that there was nowhere to stand, (the port authorities had to delay disembarkation for some time due to this problem) and we heard reports from other cruisers that fights were breaking out among those waiting for the cable car (there are few ways to get to the city from the pier.) I cannot personally corroborate this, but we were informed by more than one fellow cruiser that a passenger who was fighting with another missed his target and struck the man’s toddler, so hopefully the police got involved, but in a crowd that dense it seems likely to me that nothing ended up happening. Obviously Norwegian can’t be responsible for the individual behavior of guests, but single-handedly discharging 9,000 tourists along with crew on a single day into a port with a population of 15,000 seems near criminally irresponsible - remember, other cruise lines are in port also. At the very least this is not consistent with the type of experience that Norwegian seems to suggest you’re going to have at ports of call! Should I have known to expect this? How hard can it be to have only one large ship in a small port on a single day? If you are stopping in Santorini with Norwegian, I recommend you consider booking a shore excursion so that you’ll get to see something without fighting for your life. 
 

Other than that we had a great time,  eat great people, and would consider cruising with Norwegian again! 

[RocketMan275]

"How hard can it be to have only one large ship in a small port on a single day?"

 

How do you propose allocating that on spot for a large ship?

Consider that there are multiple cruise lines stopping there.

 

[mjkacmom]

Do you think that if NCL didn’t fill those spots they would remain empty? The ports themselves allow it.

[kitkat343]

I completely understand how difficult it is to reach Oia from the port.  Santorini is a really, really tough port to drop because it is so beautiful and an absolute highlight of a Greek cruise.  It's a tough stop to not include since some people would refuse to sail to Greece without having the chance to see Santorini.  Plus the cruise lines can make a good profit by selling their own ship tours with transportation to Oia (those of us who normally only take independent tours would consider a ship tour there just to avoid the nightmare of trying to ride the donkeys or wait for the chairlift.)

 

There have been times in the past in which it was reported her and on tripadvisor there were private ferries available to take people from the port to Oia.  Maybe the solution is for more of them to be available on a consistent basis so people can prepurchase tickets and know that's an option (my sense is that they are kind of hit or miss but I haven't been to Santorini in nearly 20 years so if anyone knows the current status I'd love to hear all about it).      

Edited May 31 by kitkat343

[Mr. Grizb]

23 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

Do you think that if NCL didn’t fill those spots they would remain empty? The ports themselves allow it.

You are absolutely right that Norwegian could not single-handedly fix the problem. However, I believe they could avoid single-handedly creating it.

[Mr. Grizb]

29 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

"How hard can it be to have only one large ship in a small port on a single day?"

 

How do you propose allocating that on spot for a large ship?

Consider that there are multiple cruise lines stopping there.

 

I may have been unclear in my original post, it is not possible for Norwegian to ensure that there is only one large ship at Santorini on a given day. I am suggesting that they should ensure that there is only one large ship owned by them in the port on a single day.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, Mr. Grizb said:

You are absolutely right that Norwegian could not single-handedly fix the problem. However, I believe they could avoid single-handedly creating it.

Only  the port can fix the problem and that is by limiting the number of ships allowed to be in port.  Or, conversely limiting the number of passengers.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, Mr. Grizb said:

I may have been unclear in my original post, it is not possible for Norwegian to ensure that there is only one large ship at Santorini on a given day. I am suggesting that they should ensure that there is only one large ship owned by them in the port on a single day.

That just means the other cruise lines could have one more ship there on any given day.

[kitkat343]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Grizb said:

I may have been unclear in my original post, it is not possible for Norwegian to ensure that there is only one large ship at Santorini on a given day. I am suggesting that they should ensure that there is only one large ship owned by them in the port on a single day.

I experienced a very similar situation on my first visit to St. Lucia.  There were two ships in port that day, both owned by NCL.  Since St. Lucia doesn't have the infrastructure to handle a megaship plus another ship, there was massive gridlock in the city leaving the port and trying to return.  The major tourist spots in St. Lucia were extremely overcrowded (it was hard to enjoy to mud baths near the drive in volcano because of the overcrowding, and we were quite lucky that our private tour happened to be at the waterfall at a time when there were few people there (and none of them changed into bathing suits and wanted to swim).  But St Lucia is a destination in which some days there are no ships in port, and other days only one so NCL bears more responsibility in placing two ships there on one day.

 

 I do genuinely believe that any vacancies on Santorini's schedule would immediately be snapped up by another cruise line because it truly is (just like Venice or St. Petersburg once were) the highlight of a cruise to that region.  As annoying as it was to reach Oia, I wouldn't recommend that someone book a Greek cruise without it.  I'd recommend they research private vendors or ferries to see if they could avoid the transportation nightmare but its a spot a lot of people really, really want to see so only the government will be able to reduce the number of ships.  An easier solution has to be finding alternate ways of transporting people to Oia though.   

Edited May 31 by kitkat343

[Mr. Grizb]

24 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

I experienced a very similar situation on my first visit to St. Lucia.  There were two ships in port that day, both owned by NCL.  Since St. Lucia doesn't have the infrastructure to handle a megaship plus another ship, there was massive gridlock in the city leaving the port and trying to return.  The major tourist spots in St. Lucia were extremely overcrowded (it was hard to enjoy to mud baths near the drive in volcano because of the overcrowding, and we were quite lucky that our private tour happened to be at the waterfall at a time when there were few people there (and none of them changed into bathing suits and wanted to swim).  But St Lucia is a destination in which some days there are no ships in port, and other days only one so NCL bears more responsibility in placing two ships there on one day.

 

 I do genuinely believe that any vacancies on Santorini's schedule would immediately be snapped up by another cruise line because it truly is (just like Venice or St. Petersburg once were) the highlight of a cruise to that region.  As annoying as it was to reach Oia, I wouldn't recommend that someone book a Greek cruise without it.  I'd recommend they research private vendors or ferries to see if they could avoid the transportation nightmare but its a spot a lot of people really, really want to see so only the government will be able to reduce the number of ships.  An easier solution has to be finding alternate ways of transporting people to Oia though.   

You’re all probably right that other ships would come in. Unfortunately, as I outlined in my original post, I was not able to visit Santorini due to this problem, and I don’t regret my decision not to go up based on other’s experiences. If it is the port that is dictating the number of tourists, then the way they’re going about it makes it so hard to get up to the town that I would personally be fine skipping the port entirely. Sounds like an unwinnable situation, but I think I may still have a point given the absolutely massive percentage of cruisers that were coming off of Norwegian owned ships. 

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Grizb said:

You’re all probably right that other ships would come in. Unfortunately, as I outlined in my original post, I was not able to visit Santorini due to this problem, and I don’t regret my decision not to go up based on other’s experiences. If it is the port that is dictating the number of tourists, then the way they’re going about it makes it so hard to get up to the town that I would personally be fine skipping the port entirely. Sounds like an unwinnable situation, but I think I may still have a point given the absolutely massive percentage of cruisers that were coming off of Norwegian owned ships. 

The port limits the number of passengers to 10,000.  Be aware that if they place lower limits, there is no guarantee that your ship would be allowed to dock.  

[julig22]

As others have pointed out, having 3 NCL ships isn't the problem. Those slots would potentially be filled by other cruise lines. So then the complaint would be NCL shouldn't be going there when there are 5 other ships also in port.

 

Crowded ports aren't uncommon these days, although the cable-car issue does make Santorini a little more problematic. Try someplace like Juneau, Alaska in mid-summer. 6 ships in port, the city is wall-to-wall people. They block the main street on those days.

 

Best way to avoid crowds is to travel outside the heavy traffic times. Santorini was beautiful the October I went - no crowds, think we were the only ship there that day.

[brookie848]

49 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

I experienced a very similar situation on my first visit to St. Lucia.  There were two ships in port that day, both owned by NCL.  Since St. Lucia doesn't have the infrastructure to handle a megaship plus another ship, there was massive gridlock in the city leaving the port and trying to return.  The major tourist spots in St. Lucia were extremely overcrowded (it was hard to enjoy to mud baths near the drive in volcano because of the overcrowding, and we were quite lucky that our private tour happened to be at the waterfall at a time when there were few people there (and none of them changed into bathing suits and wanted to swim).  But St Lucia is a destination in which some days there are no ships in port, and other days only one so NCL bears more responsibility in placing two ships there on one day.

  

St. Lucia is going to get more interesting in the future. They are re-doing the port. From my understanding, it is being paid for by Carnival and Royal, so they will have priority in docking (like Disney and NCL do in Tortola).

 

Like you said, if more ships stop there after the port redevelopment, things could get even worse with the limited "star" things to do there.

[ontheweb]

We are all overlooking the real problem here. The ships are getting too big! And that is why some ports are beginning to say no to cruises or at least limiting the number of passengers they will allow in a single day.

[RocketMan275]

39 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

We are all overlooking the real problem here. The ships are getting too big! And that is why some ports are beginning to say no to cruises or at least limiting the number of passengers they will allow in a single day.

No, it's not the fault of large ships.  It's the fault of too many passengers wanting to do the same thing at the same time.  One of the advantages of repeating the same cruises is the lack of pressure to leave the ship.

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

As annoying as it was to reach Oia, I wouldn't recommend that someone book a Greek cruise without it. 

 

I'm the exact opposite. I will not deliberately take a cruise that stops in Santorini. If I must for other reasons, that will be a ship day for me. There is much more to see in Greece than one overcrowded, unmanageable port.

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

No, it's not the fault of large ships.  It's the fault of too many passengers wanting to do the same thing at the same time.  One of the advantages of repeating the same cruises is the lack of pressure to leave the ship.

You really do not see a difference between 3 ships of approximately 2000 passengers (or maybe even less) and 3 ships of 5000+ passengers disembarking their passengers at the same time?

[RocketMan275]

16 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

You really do not see a difference between 3 ships of approximately 2000 passengers (or maybe even less) and 3 ships of 5000+ passengers disembarking their passengers at the same time?

Oh, I see the difference.  But this isn't a cruise ship problem.  As long as Santorini allows up to 10,000 passengers, you'll have this problem regardless of the number of ships or the size of the ship.  

 

[BirdTravels]

30 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

You really do not see a difference between 3 ships of approximately 2000 passengers (or maybe even less) and 3 ships of 5000+ passengers disembarking their passengers at the same time?

Isn't that why NCL built the Prima class ships like the Viva with 3000 passengers? Provide access to smaller ports?

[SeaShark]

6 hours ago, Mr. Grizb said:

Sounds like an unwinnable situation, but I think I may still have a point given the absolutely massive percentage of cruisers that were coming off of Norwegian owned ships. 

 

I don't know if two ships really counts as an "absolutely massive percentage". That sounds more like overblown drama.

 

BTW...you lost the point when you presumed that Regent was a subsidiary of Norwegian. They are not. Norwegian has no subsidiaries.

 

Both lines are actually equal subsidiaries of NCLH. 

 

However, the number of ships, and the number of visitors allowed in a port is determined solely by the port. Your ire is misdirected. You might as well try blaming the passengers themselves for choosing to go on those ships and therefore causing overcrowding in the port. (Is it really overcrowding, if the number of visitors is allowed by the port?)

[Mr. Grizb]

1 hour ago, SeaShark said:

 

I don't know if two ships really counts as an "absolutely massive percentage". That sounds more like overblown drama.

 

BTW...you lost the point when you presumed that Regent was a subsidiary of Norwegian. They are not. Norwegian has no subsidiaries.

 

Both lines are actually equal subsidiaries of NCLH. 

 

However, the number of ships, and the number of visitors allowed in a port is determined solely by the port. Your ire is misdirected. You might as well try blaming the passengers themselves for choosing to go on those ships and therefore causing overcrowding in the port. (Is it really overcrowding, if the number of visitors is allowed by the port?)

Remind me what NCLH stands for again? As for the drama, apparently you’d have had to be there…

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Isn't that why NCL built the Prima class ships like the Viva with 3000 passengers? Provide access to smaller ports?

I would not call the Prima a small ship, though smaller than the ships that NCL had been building and much smaller than what some other lines are now building. It does with its small venues have the feel of a smaller ship, and we did really enjoy our cruise this past summer.

 

Now if I was defining a small ship, we did a British Isles cruise on the Ocean Princess (no longer in the Princess fleet). IIRC it held under 700 passengers. And earlier this year we did our first river cruise. If I'm not mistaken the capacity was about 164 and we sailed with a little under 100. (Maybe that's why we got an upgrade. 😊)

 

In 2012, we sailed on the Epic, the largest ship we have been on. I found it the unfriendliest ship we have ever been on. And I would never sail on one of the 6000 passenger floating amusement parks that are now being built.. 

 

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Oh, I see the difference.  But this isn't a cruise ship problem.  As long as Santorini allows up to 10,000 passengers, you'll have this problem regardless of the number of ships or the size of the ship.  

 

And ports are beginning to limit the number of passengers allowed in any day. Bar Harbor (where we have been) is one. Key West (where we have been) has been trying. Venice (where we unfortunately have not been) is another. I believe I read that Dubrovnik (where we have been) might be another.

[njkate]

45 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And ports are beginning to limit the number of passengers allowed in any day. Bar Harbor (where we have been) is one. Key West (where we have been) has been trying. Venice (where we unfortunately have not been) is another. I believe I read that Dubrovnik (where we have been) might be another.

Bora Bora as well from what I’ve read

[JamesIowa]

Imo this is part of the cruise experience. You get the chance to see a beautiful new spot everyday from your floating resort, but there’s a good chance every place you stop is going to have other cruise ships doing the same thing.

Ever been to Cabo, Cozumel, costa maya, to name a few  when there are 4+ ships in port? It’s a madhouse. Throngs of people trying to do exactly what you’re trying to do, usually at the same time, but that’s what you signed up for. 
‘The responsibility rests solely with the destination, its people, policies and law.