Taxes and fees included in prices!

[Tiger0613]

3 hours ago, StephPS79 said:

 

Maybe you beat the system update.  They are currently itemized on the invoice detail.

The invoice comes after booking.  The website is still doing what I said before booking.

[PayneAS]

10 minutes ago, Tiger0613 said:

The invoice comes after booking.  The website is still doing what I said before booking.

 Click Show Details. 

[Tiger0613]

9 minutes ago, PayneAS said:

 Click Show Details. 

I shouldn't have to do that.  They are not being transparent.  Before this change, you could already see the total price before booking.  Now they are hiding the taxes and fees.

[Rudyard]

On 7/1/2024 at 5:03 AM, jimbo5544 said:

you would be correct, but it is interesting to see how people react.

 

I'm hoping the higher looking prices will keep the people that like to throw chairs in the buffet from booking any more cruises. 

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, Rudyard said:

 

I'm hoping the higher looking prices will keep the people that like to throw chairs in the buffet from booking any more cruises. 

Meh, they threw them before and will after, just part our new world.

[Pyrate13]

See my other post in this thread.😏

[chengkp75]

Now that "port taxes and fees" are not broken out of the cruise fare, I suspect that the limitations placed on these charges by a class action suit a couple decades ago, are no longer applicable, and so the cruise lines can charge whatever they want as "port taxes and fees" or "required fees and expenses".  I expect less transparency in what the "fees, taxes, and expenses" are, and perhaps less griping about fare comparisons, and more griping about higher fares.

[Old Fart Cruisers]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Now that "port taxes and fees" are not broken out of the cruise fare, I suspect that the limitations placed on these charges by a class action suit a couple decades ago, are no longer applicable, and so the cruise lines can charge whatever they want as "port taxes and fees" or "required fees and expenses".  I expect less transparency in what the "fees, taxes, and expenses" are, and perhaps less griping about fare comparisons, and more griping about higher fares.

Please explain how cruise lines will be able to get away with charging whatever they want as "port taxes and fees" or "required fees and expenses".

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, Old Fart Cruisers said:

Please explain how cruise lines will be able to get away with charging whatever they want as "port taxes and fees" or "required fees and expenses".

Under the old law, only things that were required for the ship to make the voyage were allowed to be included in "port fees and taxes", things like pilot fees, docking fees, passenger head tax.  The reason the lawsuit was brought, was they were charging things like fueling fees, garbage services, stevedoring charges (to load stores or baggage), and other charges that while essential to completing the voyage, are part of the normal expenses of operating the ship, and not required "pass through" costs (expenses that are passed directly from the passenger to the government entity that imposes it).  Since these were "pass through" charges, they had limitations placed so that only genuine governmental pass through charges were included, and that is what allowed them to be listed outside the advertised fare.

 

Now, as you've found out, there is not only a "port taxes and fees", which may or may not still have limitations on it (to be actual pass through charges), but there is now a "required fees and expenses".  Required by whom?  Regulated by whom? This is now the equivalent of a "daily service charge", that is required to be paid, but there is no law governing what that service charge entails, nor how much it can be, it is strictly market driven.  Note that nowhere in the name is "government" mentioned, nor what these new "expenses" are.  They can now take all the port services (like garbage removal or fresh water), and include them in "required expenses", and raise them whenever those charges increase, and still keep the same base fare.

Edited July 4 by chengkp75

[simplelife]

On 6/30/2024 at 10:56 PM, hurricane0226 said:

smoke and mirrors again

This is a new law for greater transparency (and elimination of smoke and mirrors) in travel fares, Hotels. B & B's, and airlines must do it too. 

[simplelife]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:25 AM, chengkp75 said:

Under the old law, only things that were required for the ship to make the voyage were allowed to be included in "port fees and taxes", things like pilot fees, docking fees, passenger head tax.  The reason the lawsuit was brought, was they were charging things like fueling fees, garbage services, stevedoring charges (to load stores or baggage), and other charges that while essential to completing the voyage, are part of the normal expenses of operating the ship, and not required "pass through" costs (expenses that are passed directly from the passenger to the government entity that imposes it).  Since these were "pass through" charges, they had limitations placed so that only genuine governmental pass through charges were included, and that is what allowed them to be listed outside the advertised fare.

 

Now, as you've found out, there is not only a "port taxes and fees", which may or may not still have limitations on it (to be actual pass through charges), but there is now a "required fees and expenses".  Required by whom?  Regulated by whom? This is now the equivalent of a "daily service charge", that is required to be paid, but there is no law governing what that service charge entails, nor how much it can be, it is strictly market driven.  Note that nowhere in the name is "government" mentioned, nor what these new "expenses" are.  They can now take all the port services (like garbage removal or fresh water), and include them in "required expenses", and raise them whenever those charges increase, and still keep the same base fare.

Anything they will charge you on the bottom line when you book is included, For a cruise, this is generally the port fees. Taxes can be added and any optional item is excluded from the law,

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, simplelife said:

Anything they will charge you on the bottom line when you book is included, For a cruise, this is generally the port fees. Taxes can be added and any optional item is excluded from the law,

I fully understand the intent of the law, but it appears to have been bitten by the law of unintended consequences.  As I've said, cruise lines could include charges like pilotage fees and line handler charges in the old "port fees and taxes", and it was to the cruise line's advantage to add more to the "port fees and taxes" to minimize the advertised fare.  Now, they will reduce the "port fees and taxes" to just the amount of governmental taxes, in order to minimize the amount that is refunded due to cancellations.  It appears that Carnival, at least, has created the new line item of "required fees and expenses", but since there is no mention of "port" in these charges, they won't be refunded if a port is canceled, and apparently are subject to penalties like the fare is, if you cancel.  The base fare can remain as low as possible, lots of stuff is dumped into the "required fees and expenses", and the bottom line is the same, but less of the fare is refundable.

[jimbo5544]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I fully understand the intent of the law, but it appears to have been bitten by the law of unintended consequences.  As I've said, cruise lines could include charges like pilotage fees and line handler charges in the old "port fees and taxes", and it was to the cruise line's advantage to add more to the "port fees and taxes" to minimize the advertised fare.  Now, they will reduce the "port fees and taxes" to just the amount of governmental taxes, in order to minimize the amount that is refunded due to cancellations.  It appears that Carnival, at least, has created the new line item of "required fees and expenses", but since there is no mention of "port" in these charges, they won't be refunded if a port is canceled, and apparently are subject to penalties like the fare is, if you cancel.  The base fare can remain as low as possible, lots of stuff is dumped into the "required fees and expenses", and the bottom line is the same, but less of the fare is refundable.

When the pot gets stirred (in this case by the United States of California) then things have to get adjusted, appreciate the color on the line items.

[StephPS79]

33 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I fully understand the intent of the law, but it appears to have been bitten by the law of unintended consequences.  As I've said, cruise lines could include charges like pilotage fees and line handler charges in the old "port fees and taxes", and it was to the cruise line's advantage to add more to the "port fees and taxes" to minimize the advertised fare.  Now, they will reduce the "port fees and taxes" to just the amount of governmental taxes, in order to minimize the amount that is refunded due to cancellations.  It appears that Carnival, at least, has created the new line item of "required fees and expenses", but since there is no mention of "port" in these charges, they won't be refunded if a port is canceled, and apparently are subject to penalties like the fare is, if you cancel.  The base fare can remain as low as possible, lots of stuff is dumped into the "required fees and expenses", and the bottom line is the same, but less of the fare is refundable.

 

You are very knowledgeable, so I'm not saying I don't think what you said makes sense.  However - just curious on your take - you think that pricing practices that brought about a class-action lawsuit in the past would be implemented again, just under a different guise?  I don't know, I have a hard time believing Carnival risk pricing for something they were sued for in the past, just slapping a new title on it, instead of adding it to the base fare to begin with.

[chengkp75]

The reason they were allowed to list the "taxes and fees" outside the advertised fare was because they were restricted on what they could put in it.  Now that it is included in the advertised fare, regardless of what it is called, it doesn't fall under those restrictions.  The lawsuit (and it was against NCL, by the way) was because the cruise lines were including too much into the taxes and fees to hold the advertised fare down.  Also, they are including less items in the "taxes and fees", not more, so even the courts would be happy.

[n6uqqq]

There is a bit of give and take as a result of the CA law. Carnival has lost the ability to impose a fuel surcharge and to raise the cost of port fees, (neither of which I have seen Carnival do since I started cruising in 2007). But on the other side Carnival will now collect more money from "no shows" as less money will be refunded in port fees and taxes. The new "mandatory and third party fee" is nothing more than an addition to the cruise fare kept separate to make the cost of the cruise appear as less even though Carnival is required to show the total price, which they really did even before this new law. 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, n6uqqq said:

Carnival has lost the ability to impose a fuel surcharge

They don't need it now, they can hide it in the "required cruise fees and expenses", an no one is the wiser.  As to "port fees", there is no regulation regarding what they are calling "port fees" anymore, so they can raise them as they like, ahead of time, to ensure that all expenses (and a few others) are covered no matter what.  I don't see any "give" on Carnival's behalf, it is all a win for them.

[n6uqqq]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

They don't need it now, they can hide it in the "required cruise fees and expenses", an no one is the wiser.  As to "port fees", there is no regulation regarding what they are calling "port fees" anymore, so they can raise them as they like, ahead of time, to ensure that all expenses (and a few others) are covered no matter what.  I don't see any "give" on Carnival's behalf, it is all a win for them.

True, but that would require them to raise the cost of the cruise up front now and perhaps make the pricing less attractive. The fuel surcharge had the ability to come bite us for more money after the fact(never imposed to my knowledge). In the end though, you are correct, it will hurt us and not Carnival.

[jimbo5544]

25 minutes ago, n6uqqq said:

True, but that would require them to raise the cost of the cruise up front now and perhaps make the pricing less attractive. The fuel surcharge had the ability to come bite us for more money after the fact(never imposed to my knowledge). In the end though, you are correct, it will hurt us and not Carnival.

I am pretty sure that fuel surcharge was in place a time or two, but not certain.  Ypu mean after the fact as in final payment?  At the end of the day, the price is the price.  I never got wrapped up in any component.  

[n6uqqq]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I am pretty sure that fuel surcharge was in place a time or two, but not certain.  Ypu mean after the fact as in final payment?  At the end of the day, the price is the price.  I never got wrapped up in any component.  

I just meant that after you had booked for an agreed to price, Carnival previously reserved the right to add to that price after the fact with the fuel charge. The verbiage is gone now from the contract but I believe Carnival had the right to impose it at any point up until the cruise even after final payment. it was 9 dollars a day per person charge and on a 14 day cruise for two people it had the potential to increase costs another 252 dollars. But now the price you agree to is the price you pay with no chance for any more increases, even though it was unlikely like I said.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, n6uqqq said:

I just meant that after you had booked for an agreed to price, Carnival previously reserved the right to add to that price after the fact with the fuel charge. The verbiage is gone now from the contract but I believe Carnival had the right to impose it at any point up until the cruise even after final payment. it was 9 dollars a day per person charge and on a 14 day cruise for two people it had the potential to increase costs another 252 dollars. But now the price you agree to is the price you pay with no chance for any more increases, even though it was unlikely like I said.

Got it.  

[n6uqqq]

34 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Got it.  

I found the old part of the contract in cruiseradio dot net about the now gone surcharge. So in a way Carnival did give up something from this law and they can now make up for it upfront like chengkp75 said if they so desire. As far as my big box travel agency goes, they lump the newly "required fees and expenses" into the cruise fare, which since is now subject to penalty makes sense to me since why should Carnival refund something that they aren't required to by law if you no show or cancel late into the booking. In the end this law didn't really change much, We already knew the cost by the 2nd page of booking even before the law became enacted. 

Edited July 5 by n6uqqq

[RoperDK]

On 7/3/2024 at 10:43 AM, Old Fart Cruisers said:

I noticed that now they are also including service charges and delivery in the advertised prices on Cheers! and other beverage packages.

 

 

I think that this is a great change!  This leaves no doubt about what you are paying per day without having to click through or do the calculations on your own.  

[RoperDK]

On 7/4/2024 at 7:25 AM, chengkp75 said:

Now, as you've found out, there is not only a "port taxes and fees", which may or may not still have limitations on it (to be actual pass through charges), but there is now a "required fees and expenses".  Required by whom?  Regulated by whom? This is now the equivalent of a "daily service charge", that is required to be paid, but there is no law governing what that service charge entails, nor how much it can be, it is strictly market driven.  Note that nowhere in the name is "government" mentioned, nor what these new "expenses" are.  They can now take all the port services (like garbage removal or fresh water), and include them in "required expenses", and raise them whenever those charges increase, and still keep the same base fare.

I noticed this yesterday when I booked a cruise. It made me feel like something underhanded was going on.  Maybe there is and maybe there isn't, but there is no breakdown of what "required" is.  It may (and probably was) already in the old cruise prices, but the vague wording has me a bit suspicious. Oh well, I still booked the cruise, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.    

[cruisewiththekids]

Has anyone been able to verify with Carnival which taxes/fees are still automatically refundable if a sailing is canceled after final payment or a no-show at the pier?