Jones Act Question

[GRACECRUISE]

Looking at booking Ft Lauderdale to Montreal collectors cruise (26 days) and would like to book the 7 day from Montreal to Boston. We are trying to determine if this will violate the Jones Act. Any feedback would help.

 

Thanks

[RuthC]

Not the Jones Act. But it does sound like it would violate the Passenger Vessel Services Act.

If you wish to sail on a non-US registered vessel, which the Maasdam is, and it starts and ends in two different US ports, which Ft. Lauderdale and Boston are, then it would need to stop at a distant foreign port, which it will not on this itinerary.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Looking at booking Ft Lauderdale to Montreal collectors cruise (26 days) and would like to book the 7 day from Montreal to Boston. We are trying to determine if this will violate the Jones Act. Any feedback would help.

 

Thanks

Unfortunately this violates the Passengers Services Act.You would be starting in one US port and disembarking in another with outgoing to a distant foreign port.

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Unfortunately, that itinerary is against the PVSA. We tried to do this same itinerary in 2011 and we were denied. It's too bad because it is a very nice itinerary.

[slabeaume]

Why wouldn't Montreal act as the foreign port? Victoria does on the Alaskan cruises.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Why wouldn't Montreal act as the foreign port? Victoria does on the Alaskan cruises.

The key word is DISTANT foreign Port. When leaving from one US City and returning to a totally different, this is not a closed loop sailing. When ships go to Victoria it is during an Alaska cruise where passengers leave from Seattle and return to Seattle.

[Doh15]

I think a brief stop in a foreign port is enough for purposes of the Jones Act (which IIRC would otherwise require a US ship and crew). However, the PVSA is a separate law that prohibits foreign flagged vessels from transporting passengers from one US port to another (unless the ship stops outside North America). In this case the passenger would be "transported" from Ft Lauderdale to Boston by a foreign flagged ship, and the line would be fined $300 for violating the PVSA, the same as if the ship had started in Ft. Lauderdale and they had gotten off in Miami.

[RuthC]

Why wouldn't Montreal act as the foreign port? Victoria does on the Alaskan cruises.

Depending on the routing, either a distant or a near foreign port is required.

When the routing is round-trip between two US ports, as Victoria does for Seattle round-trip cruises, then the requirement is for a near foreign port. When the cruise begins and ends in different US cities, a distant foreign port is required.

[sail7seas]

Why wouldn't Montreal act as the foreign port? Victoria does on the Alaskan cruises.

 

The 'nearest' distant foreign ports are Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. Montreal does not qualify.

[slabeaume]

I was told by this board that my daughter couldn't board in San Juan and travel the last 4 nights of our 7 night cruise (porting in St. Thomas and Castaway Cay) before ending in Ft. Lauderdale because of the Jones Act or the other law. After talking with HAL agents 3 or 4 times, they sent a letter asking for approval off to whomever makes the decision and within 2 days I had a letter of approval. She and another passenger joined our cruise in San Jaun. So I say it couldn't hurt to contact HAL and see what they say.

[RMLincoln]

Couldn't this be booked as two separate cruises with a disembarkation in Montreal and them the next cruise from Montreal to Boston... like all the others on that 7 day cruise? Just wondering. m--

[DAllenTCY]

Holland America cannot change an act of Congress, that is the issue. Until the law is changed (and it should be) you still can't violate it intentionally without fines for you and/or the cruise line.

Back to the original issue, as Lisa said, HAL could do a better job of highlighting, bold printing, coloring some of the boarding pass in red, or something....because this happens EVERY Hawaiin Island sailing!

The Boarding Pass actually lists the following as being an acceptable form of passage "State Issued Drivers License (EDL)". An "EDL" is an enhanced type of driver's license issued by the states of Washington, Vermont, Michgan and New York only. This type of license verifies your US citizenship. It is used for people who frequently cross the US/Canada border. Many of Canada's provinces also issue these, and for the same reason.

If you don't have an EDL, you don't have proof of Nationality. It is easy to see why the confusion (mis-understanding) contributes to the problem. Also, a military ID, Costco membership card, etc. will not get you onboard. Book with a travel agent, not online when so much is at stake.

David

[DAllenTCY]

I apologize, I tried to reply to two separate posts with one response. I'll pay more attention in the future.

David

[RuthC]

Couldn't this be booked as two separate cruises with a disembarkation in Montreal and them the next cruise from Montreal to Boston... like all the others on that 7 day cruise? Just wondering. m--

It would be a 2-week wait since they can't sail out that night. The Maasdam takes 7 days down to Boston, then another 7 days back to Montreal. If the OP wanted to wait the two weeks, then yes, it would constitute two separate cruises with a break inbetween and the PVSA would not come into play.

[rafinmd]

Would it be permitted (not necessarily desirable but permitted) do disembark the first cruise in Quebec, take a train/bus to a Montreal hotel overnight, and embark Maasdam the next day?

 

Would the fact that the OP was ticketed for the entire continuous trip override the fact that they didn't actually do a continuous journey?

 

Roy

[RuthC]

Would it be permitted (not necessarily desirable but permitted) do disembark the first cruise in Quebec, take a train/bus to a Montreal hotel overnight, and embark Maasdam the next day?

 

Would the fact that the OP was ticketed for the entire continuous trip override the fact that they didn't actually do a continuous journey?

Now, THERE'S a good question!

 

I know that a cruise up the west coast, disembark in Vancouver, stay overnight, then take a 1-night cruise to Seattle is sufficient break. But that would necessarily be two different ships.

What you're proposing is the same ship, so that might change the game.

 

Wonder what the answer is.

[sail7seas]

I doubt HAL would permit it.

 

[RMLincoln]

It would be a 2-week wait since they can't sail out that night. The Maasdam takes 7 days down to Boston, then another 7 days back to Montreal. If the OP wanted to wait the two weeks, then yes, it would constitute two separate cruises with a break inbetween and the PVSA would not come into play.

 

Ruth, Thank you for the clear explanation... as usual. You are a gem and we appreciate your knowledge as well as your wisdom. :) m--

[Boytjie]

I was told by this board that my daughter couldn't board in San Juan and travel the last 4 nights of our 7 night cruise (porting in St. Thomas and Castaway Cay) before ending in Ft. Lauderdale because of the Jones Act or the other law. After talking with HAL agents 3 or 4 times, they sent a letter asking for approval off to whomever makes the decision and within 2 days I had a letter of approval. She and another passenger joined our cruise in San Jaun. So I say it couldn't hurt to contact HAL and see what they say.

 

Did they have to pay the PSVA fine(I think $300 per person)? Either they did or HAL did, but someone had to have paid it.

[sail7seas]

I was told by this board that my daughter couldn't board in San Juan and travel the last 4 nights of our 7 night cruise (porting in St. Thomas and Castaway Cay) before ending in Ft. Lauderdale because of the Jones Act or the other law. After talking with HAL agents 3 or 4 times, they sent a letter asking for approval off to whomever makes the decision and within 2 days I had a letter of approval. She and another passenger joined our cruise in San Jaun. So I say it couldn't hurt to contact HAL and see what they say.

__________________

Sue

 

 

 

 

Did they have to pay the PSVA fine(I think $300 per person)? Either they did or HAL did, but someone had to have paid it.

 

 

 

I'm confused about the ports mentioned.......

 

HAL does not go to Castaway Cay. Is the poster confusing it with Half Moon Cay or was it a different cruise line?

[slabeaume]

I'm confused about the ports mentioned.......

 

HAL does not go to Castaway Cay. Is the poster confusing it with Half Moon Cay or was it a different cruise line?

 

OOops---yes, Halfmoon Cay. And, no, there was no fee paid. I don't think HAL paid anything, either, as I was later told it's done frequently from San Juan. At any rate, there were no "far away" foreign ports in her 4 night cruise.

 

I'm not saying the Montreal to Boston one can be done, but it definately wouldn't hurt to persue it with HAL. The first time I called them I was told yes (but didn't book her then). Then when I called back to book her I was told no because of the Jones law. Then I researched and found USVI was exempt from that law but still wondered about the far away foreign port thing to which the next agent I talked to didn't know the answer, but said he would put in the request. The request was approved. Perhaps if the first agent told me it couldn't be done I would have stopped at that.

[bob brown]

Okay, so you can't do a back-to-back in this case, but if you stayed two weeks in Montreal, then you could go on to Boston, right?

Just how long do you have to wait between cruises on the same ship to make it 'legal'?

Just suppose the Maasdam did an overnite 'cruise to nowhere' out of Montreal between the two cruises...

Could you then take the next cruise to Boston? I know, the Maasdam never does that, but just suppose for arguments sake....

[GRACECRUISE]

Thanks to all for the information. Since we can't really swing 2 weeks waiting in Montreal for the ship to come back, we will just fly home from Montreal. We will save money flying home from Montreal and can take that to book the next cruise. Every cloud does have a silver lining.

 

Thanks again for the info.

[RuthC]

And, no, there was no fee paid. I don't think HAL paid anything, either, as I was later told it's done frequently from San Juan. At any rate, there were no "far away" foreign ports in her 4 night cruise.

Somewhere in my vague memory there's a stray thought that St. Thomas and Puerto Rico have an exemption. I don't know if it's because they don't have statehood status, or what the story is, but I do remember something about it.

That would explain why your daughter got an exemption, but the OP can't.

Then when I called back to book her I was told no because of the Jones law.

Again, this has nothing to do with the Jones Act. Nothing.

This situation comes under the Passenger Vessel Services Act.

[Mary Ellen]

Somewhere in my vague memory there's a stray thought that St. Thomas and Puerto Rico have an exemption. I don't know if it's because they don't have statehood status, or what the story is, but I do remember something about it.

Ruth, there was recently something on a different forum here about an exception for Puerto Rico. It was because Princess is offering 4-day San Juan to NYC(???, I'm not sure as I have NO interest in such an itinerary, but it was somewhere in the northeast U.S.) cruises. I don't know about St. Thomas.