HAL's Next Ship??

[RuthC]

I think the last thing HAL needs now is more ships.

I agree. I'll even go so far as to say HAL could do with fewer ships.

[world~citizen]

...Carnival Corp needs to come out of the closet and establish a go forward brand strategy for HAL. The current strategy is very, very confusing.

 

Yes, very true.

 

I think HAL built a lot of ships and backed into a situation they didn't expect - the global financial crisis. That, plus their inexperience with bigger ships has taken them to a bad place.

 

They need to do some soul searching...

[kazu]

A new build may be telling as to where Carnival wants to take the HAL brand.

 

At the moment HAL seems to be neither 'fish nor foul' given that it operates small, high per diem ships with extended itineraries as well as large ships, often with a much lower per diem, in the competitive 7-12 day mass market itineraries.

 

Add to the mix that some of those smaller, older ships are either due for replacement, retirement, or extreme makeover and it becomes anyone's guess.

 

RCI spun off Azamara from Celebrity. Carnival Corp already has premium cruise lines in it's corporate stable.

 

IMHO, Carnival Corp needs to come out of the closet and establish a go forward brand strategy for HAL. The current strategy is very, very confusing.

 

You are referring to Seabourn, correct? i thought they were considered a luxury line:confused: Hal could easily go back to being a premium line with the right moves - many younger people get on those smaller ships and enjoy them. You're right - what they decide to build next will definitely seal their fate IMO.

[world~citizen]

I agree. I'll even go so far as to say HAL could do with fewer ships.

 

I agree.

 

It would be nice if they could keep the smaller ones (my prejudice), but they are the older ones - and probably the first to be retired.

[hypercafe]

Maybe in the CCL business plan each brand must pay for itself out of their profits. HAL might be a poor performer this why they seem to spend little on their ships. Other lines outside of CCL like X just finished spending lots to upgrade their older ships and IMHO keep them in better shape. I never saw a post on X trying to make a data base of bad cabins or about whole ships with plumbing and AC problems. X, NCL, RCCL have a much newer fleet.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Intereting speculations. My guess is that they will utilize a hull design that Carnival or Princess uses, with HAL touches, of coarse. We will be looking at 2500 + passenger size. I doubt that a Prinsendam size ship will be built due to economy of size.

 

Though Stein Kruse says that they have no immediate plans to add to the fleet, the financing costs are now so low that Carnival will be tempted. They appear to be making a bigger push with Princess, in adding ships. I hope that they do not neglect HAL along the way.

 

I agree that Carnival will likely re-use a design they've already got. Look at the vista design. HAL, Cunard, Costa (any others?) have vistas. Not all exactly the same, but close enough. Another example of a large company taking advantage of "economy of scale."

 

 

Maybe in the CCL business plan each brand must pay for itself out of their profits. HAL might be a poor performer this why they seem to spend little on their ships. Other lines outside of CCL like X just finished spending lots to upgrade their older ships and IMHO keep them in better shape. I never saw a post on X trying to make a data base of bad cabins or about whole ships with plumbing and AC problems. X, NCL, RCCL have a much newer fleet.

 

I'm sure that's true for day-to-day operations. CCL can't be expected to subsidize running costs for HAL or any other of its lines. Repairs may be part of those costs that must be carried in-house, too. But for new builds, I suspect the parent company puts up some/all of the money, or at least signs the loans. Certainly, Cunard was in no position to build QM2 when CCL bought them. So CCL must have paid for that project.

[lcand1923]

HAL seems to be in an "identity crises" mode. They can't decide which market is theirs. Before they decide on any new builds, they need to decide, "Who is our customer?" and "What does this customer want?" I don't follow the industry as many of you do, but don't see the TON of ads for smaller ships like I see for the behemoths. HAL, maybe, should go back to the "premium" line concept that so many of us remember fondly -- pay a little more, get a more traditional cruise experience.

[blueboro]

Sounds like I am in the minority but I far prefer the size of the Signature class ships than the smaller ones. I love being able to have a balcony without having to break the bank and pay for a suite and I enjoy specialty restaurants like Tamarind. I also love the Solstice class from Celebrity. Yes, they carry 2800 passengers but the space ratio is very high when compared to other large ships and I have never felt crowded.

 

Now, there is such as things as too big and to me the Oasis and Epic are too big...although consumers who have cruised on smaller ships seem to be singing their praises.

[kazu]

Sounds like I am in the minority but I far prefer the size of the Signature class ships than the smaller ones. I love being able to have a balcony without having to break the bank and pay for a suite and I enjoy specialty restaurants like Tamarind. I also love the Solstice class from Celebrity. Yes, they carry 2800 passengers but the space ratio is very high when compared to other large ships and I have never felt crowded.

 

Now, there is such as things as too big and to me the Oasis and Epic are too big...although consumers who have cruised on smaller ships seem to be singing their praises.

 

All I can say is that I have sailed every class of Hal's fleet (as well as a lot of the competitors) and no ship for us compares to the Prinsendam. She's in a league of her own. The amazing thing is that people are willing to pay to be on this ship. (including us)

 

As to comparing the other ships - As much as I LOVE the Tamarind, after sailing the other ships, the NA is at the bottom of my list of HAL ships to sail. I'd far rather be on the Maasdam or even the Rotterdam than the Nieuw Amsterdam.

 

The crew to passenger ratio on the Prinsendam is still 1.79 - not too shabby and it's space is 46 - again very good. I know she can't carry as many people but I suspect she is one of the very profitable ships in the fleet. MDR - I never saw anyone without a bottle of HAL's wine:) Shore excursions seem busy and because you know the staff - when the wine steward is at the Lido and asks you to try x - and promises you'll love it - you have a hard time saying no;)

 

Yes, it's more expensive - HAL needs to decide where they want to go - compete with Oasis who can do cheap cabins - or go back to premium for real and deliver a service and a brand that people will be willing to pay a bit more for. JMHO though.

[blueboro]

"...Yes, it's more expensive - HAL needs to decide where they want to go - compete with Oasis who can do cheap cabins"

 

From what I find, cabins on Oasis and Allure are about 25%-30% more expensive than comparable cabins on Signature class.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

While there is still quite a bit of the world that is hurting in this economy, there are still plenty of countries that with passengers willing to spend money and have excess disposable income. We have to remember that HAL ships sail the WORLD not just North America. My gut keeps telling me for them to still stay out there as a Major Cruise Line they MUST put out some new Builds. I have been predicting this for a long time but HAL is currently the ONLY Major Cruise Line with no New Builds currently being announced. I was thinking that last year when they had their Annual Conference with Officers from the ship and Executives in Seattle that they would announce a new build. I just feel strongly that it will happen this year. I am still convinced it will be about 110,000 to 115,000 tons.

I agree that HAL will eventually sell off some ships but not right away, maybe once they do announce a new build if it is this year or next they will then actively look for buyers.

 

Someone mentioned why would Thomson want the Veendam, while several here on CC do not like her she has many great features and HAL does take very good care of their ships. Thomson have already bought several of HAL's ships.

Whogo, has brought up about the Solstice. I do think that HAL needs to follow them if they want to stay in the Premium Market. Celebrity has done well with the Solstice Class, filling them and bringing in the right demographics to fill the ship and spend money on board.

My speculation is that any new build will be very close to Celebrity Solstice :)

[iancal]

The ships that are built by Carnival and RCI are usually built with massive Government subsidies-both hidden and forthright-from those countries/shipyards that win the business.

 

If indeed the predictions are correct about the next few years being very challenging in Europe, now might be the time to snag even larger build subsidies from those countries such as Italy with growing unemployment challenges. Could be a good time toplan the retirement of their older ships in favour of some new builds. Interest rates are low.

 

It would be very refreshing to see Carnival Corp do what RCI did.....come out with an innovative ground up Solstice design instead of doing minor changes on existing older style ship designs like the Spirit class ships.

 

IMHO, HAL needs to do something. Their appeal to new cruisers is being hurt by challenges with their older ships and by their repututation, rightly or wrongly, of appealing to a more sedate, older demographic.

[Steve Q]

My wife and I really believe that Celebrity has pulled ahead of HAL with its Solstice class ships. We have sailed on 5 different HAL ships and leave next Saturday on the Westerdam. Our last two cruises, however, have been on the Solstice and the Equinox. In our opinion, and we really do like HAL, the Solstice Class is a significant step up in class from HAL. The ships are beautifully designed and we never felt like ther were 2800 passengers sailing with us. HAL will probably build something similar as I doubt they will have much choice. They better decide quickly as they are 3-4 years behind.

[hypercafe]

Maybe CCL just wants to milk HAL for all it's worth and let it die. Like was said if X is there competition HAL is years behind.

[sail7seas]

Maybe in the CCL business plan each brand must pay for itself out of their profits. HAL might be a poor performer this why they seem to spend little on their ships. Other lines outside of CCL like X just finished spending lots to upgrade their older ships and IMHO keep them in better shape. I never saw a post on X trying to make a data base of bad cabins or about whole ships with plumbing and AC problems. X, NCL, RCCL have a much newer fleet.

 

 

Where does Seabourn fit into that scheme?

 

Seems HAL is harboring Seabourn these days and has moved Seabourn's headquarters into Elliott Avenue, Seattle. Many of the Senior Executives for HAL are serving same position for Seabourn now.

 

 

 

[Pettifogger]

It seems to me that we're commenting "in the dark."

 

While at first glance, it seems that there are economies of scale with larger ships, I can remember when huge conglomerates were all the rage on the NYSE, then the economies of scale didn't all work out as projected.

 

HAL has all of the crucial figures; how much it costs per cabin to maintain each size of ship, how much more it can charge, if anything, for a cabin on a smaller ship, etc. and, so far as I know, none of us do. So the conventional wisdom the bigger ships are inevitable may or may not be true; HAL with the figures is in a much better position to guess than we are. ((And I think all anyone can do is guess in view of the uncertain future of the economy.)

 

Since the preference of a great many of us for smaller ships enters into the calculation as reflected in the price HAL can get for cabins on the smaller ships, I doubt that it takes even the most impassioned and appealing of these posts into account separately. I'm relatively price sensitive (cheap), but I'm prepared to pay more for a cabin on a smaller ship. I can only hope there are enough others who feel the same way to keep them afloat.

[3rdGenCunarder]

It seems to me that we're commenting "in the dark."

 

While at first glance, it seems that there are economies of scale with larger ships, I can remember when huge conglomerates were all the rage on the NYSE, then the economies of scale didn't all work out as projected.

 

HAL has all of the crucial figures; how much it costs per cabin to maintain each size of ship, how much more it can charge, if anything, for a cabin on a smaller ship, etc. and, so far as I know, none of us do. So the conventional wisdom the bigger ships are inevitable may or may not be true; HAL with the figures is in a much better position to guess than we are. ((And I think all anyone can do is guess in view of the uncertain future of the economy.)

 

Since the preference of a great many of us for smaller ships enters into the calculation as reflected in the price HAL can get for cabins on the smaller ships, I doubt that it takes even the most impassioned and appealing of these posts into account separately. I'm relatively price sensitive (cheap), but I'm prepared to pay more for a cabin on a smaller ship. I can only hope there are enough others who feel the same way to keep them afloat.

 

Others may be, too, if HAL gives them a reason to pay more. Repeaters may appreciate the advantages to a small ship. Posters here on CC are a tiny segment of the cruising public. Most cruisers don't care about the details the way we do here. A lot of people book a cruise based on where it goes (in general--Canada, Caribbaen, Med, etc) and what it costs. HAL needs to market "the small ship advantage" or something like that to make customers think that the higher price is worth it.

 

As someone else already posted, they need to figure out what their identity is. How can they market their cruises efectively when they don't know what their "message" should be?

[sail7seas]

Why define themselves?

 

If they are filling the ships with all the ambiguity some seem to feel their lack of message presents, then maybe the message is just fine?

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

Why define themselves?

 

If they are filling the ships with all the ambiguity some seem to feel their lack of message presents, then maybe the message is just fine?

 

 

But are they filling the ships? They're discounting a lot.

 

My post was in response to paying more for small ships. If HAL were to add small ships to the fleet, they would have to find a way to justify the extra cost, especially to the people who book by the "bottom line."

[Sir PMP]

'what would you really hope would be new'

 

A new copy of the Rotterdam with an aft pool....

[dr.dawg]

frankly, and i hate to say this because hal has been my line of choice for over sixteen years, but unless hal defines its product it will be defunct in less than ten years. its demographic is old, like me, and i don't see that changing, regardless of ads, promos, et al. just examine the hal folks on this site, what is their age, upon what is their loyalty based? memories, and not much more. sad.

[sail7seas]

But are they filling the ships? They're discounting a lot.

 

My post was in response to paying more for small ships. If HAL were to add small ships to the fleet, they would have to find a way to justify the extra cost, especially to the people who book by the "bottom line."

 

 

Yes, I see your point.

 

I can only speak for DH and me and we sail (small) Maasdam A LOT and certainly are paying well for the "S" cabins we occupy. We aren't getting any great discounts...... unfortunately. Maybe we're missing out on what others are getting but we are paying high per diems especially for our Canada/New England cruises.

 

We're booked for Veendam next August and are paying more than $1,000 per day to sail THAT ship! That's awfully high for Veendam but it is a special itinerary they are doing once. We did it a few times some years ago and loved it and we and our friends have chosen to pay way too much and do it again. Veendam is not worth that per diem IMO

 

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

Yes, I see your point.

 

I can only speak for DH and me and we sail (small) Maasdam A LOT and certainly are paying well for the "S" cabins we occupy. We aren't getting any great discounts...... unfortunately. Maybe we're missing out on what others are getting but we are paying high per diems especially for our Canada/New England cruises.

 

We're booked for Veendam next August and are paying more than $1,000 per day to sail THAT ship! That's awfully high for Veendam but it is a special itinerary they are doing once. We did it a few times some years ago and loved it and we and our friends have chosen to pay way too much and do it again. Veendam is not worth that per diem IMO

 

 

 

You know what you're getting and you're willing to pay more to get it. I've received a lot of emails from online TAs offering incredibly cheap prices for cruises. I look at the lines they're offering, and most of the time I wouldn't sail on them. I know what I like and want and that's what I book. I've paid more for one-shot cruises or itineraries that were special to me, too.

 

We probably paid more for Bermuda on Veendam than we would have paid on one of the west end megas. Absolutely worth it. But 2 of my 3 recent cruises with HAL had discounted prices that kept my per diem low, and I get a lot of emails with great offers.

 

So some routes at some times are being heavily discounted.

[blueboro]

You know what you're getting and you're willing to pay more to get it. I've received a lot of emails from online TAs offering incredibly cheap prices for cruises. I look at the lines they're offering, and most of the time I wouldn't sail on them. I know what I like and want and that's what I book. I've paid more for one-shot cruises or itineraries that were special to me, too. .

 

But, HAL cabins for Caribbean sailings this winter are lower than any other cruise line...except for Carnival in some cases. We are looking at HAL, X, Princess and for a comparable balcony cabin, HAL is $100+ cheaper for 7 days.

[rkacruiser]

I think the next new HAL ship will be a replacement for the Prinsendam. She has many miles under her keel and will need to be replaced sooner or later. I have long thought, given Carnval Corporation's tendency to use a given template of ship design for more than one of their operating companies, that a new Prinsendam could/would be based on tweaking the Seabourn Odyssey design. Add a deck or two and I think it would work.