Is Carnival Corp losing it's mojo?

[kelmac]

Between 2003 and 2011 my wife and I use to alternate between Celebrity and Holland America. HAL has lost it's luster with us for a variety of reasons, which includes less service people, uninspired cuisine, old school decor, out-dated smoking policy, weak return customer program…,

 

This past summer we did a TA on Cunard's Queen Mary 2 (second time on the QM2) -- it felt like Holland America on Steroids. The MDR food was good, the buffet was awful, and Todd English is so so. Some great stuff, some not so great.

 

Yesterday we disembarked from the Golden Princess. Very tired ship, mediocre food, crowded everywhere, large cabin (mini-suite) that was brown, with brown, with a touch of ugly.

 

I don't want to "pile on" with Carnival's issues (Costa Concordia…,), but it seems like the products of Royal Caribbean (Celebrity, Royal Caribbean, Azamara) are head and shoulders better than anything Carnival Corp is offering? Oceania is great, but pretty expensive. We have no experience with the Ultra Luxury lines, and to be fair, we haven't tried NCL in many years.

 

We love the itineraries of HAL, Princess, and Cunard, but it will be a few years before we embark one of their ships. We have four cruises coming up -- three on Celebrity and one of RCI.

 

I'm not anti-Carnival, and I use to own their stock -- anyone else sense a change?

 

Enjoy!

Kel:)

[We're The Groupnors]

Can't agree more with your Princess experience. We used to be about equal between Celebrity and Princess when choosing a cruise, but our last Princess cruise in 2008 was a disappointment compared to our Celebrity experiences. If the price and itinerary on Princess enticed us we would return, but that has yet to happen.

[Go-Bucks!]

Will be on Celebrity for the first time in the next 3 months and hope I'll enjoy it, but I love Princess and will be Elite next year. They have the best loyalty program, bar none. Check it out.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree. And neither do thousands of others. BTW, my Carnival Corp stock is doing great and I get tons of OBC with it. Oh, and virtually all OBC and other perks are combinable on Princess. Not so on Celebrity or NCL. :(

[mafig]

I was just on Crown Princess after 7 years. We used to like Princess a lot, now I don't think I'd go on them again.

 

It seems that it was a very bland, vanilla experience. It seems that it has "stood still" while other lines we've sailed on recently are more to our liking. Food is better on Celebrity and even entertainment is. Princess' entertainment seems stuck in the early 2000's. Even Personal Choice Dining which they started in about 2000 has taken a turn for the worst, since they expanded the dining rooms for Traditional.

 

I was initially interested in Royal Princess, but since I like sitting on our balcony, we won't consider that ship now.

 

(I also thought that Royal Caribbean stock was outperforming Carnival.)

Edited December 2, 2013 by mafig

[Aquahound]

Kel, I agree with your assessment. Personally, I think RCCL is a quality business model while Carnival Corp is a quantity model. They both may be successful, but I think the quality model provides a nicer cruise.

[Cruising89143]

IMHO RCCL is light years ahead of Carnival Corp when it comes to ship design and innovation. Even NCL has moved ahead of Carnival Corporation with their Breakaway and Breakaway Plus new builds. I also give credit to RCCL for spending the money on their fleet for revitalizations. They just completed the Vision class and now will move to the Voyager class. It wasn't too long ago that the Millie class was revitalized.

 

I have not cruised on Princess but have on HAL and Carnival. No interest in either one of them any time soon and Princess does not interest me at all. Their ships look boring. I think that we have found our cruise lines in RCI and Celebrity depending on what we are looking for in an overall cruise experience at the time. Both offer what we need.:)

[Starry Eyes]

Was it 2002 when Princess was put up for sale by P&O? I recall being thrilled when had RCL placed a good bid. I thought RCL corp would run Princess well, keeping her best traits. Then Carnival corporation placed bid after bid, and finally won out; I was sad. I had (and still have) the impression that when Carnival corp buys another cruise line, the purchased line gradually seems to lose its old special traits and melds into the world's largest cruise corp's traits.

 

My favorite Princess cruise was my first one, taken before said buyout. The ones since have been OK, just not as special IMHO. I would cruise Princess again, especially if the timing and itinerary best fit our desires, but they are not my favored line.

[mafig]

The way I *remember* it was that it was going to be a merger of equals (Royal Caribbean and Princess).

 

They were going to move Celebrity up, Royal Caribbean down and slip Princess in the middle. Unfortunately, Carnival offered the stockholders more. My favorite cruise ever was on Coral Princess (just a few months before the Carnival took over). I don't know if it was considered a "hostile" takeover or not.

Edited December 2, 2013 by mafig

[Chunky2219]

Ask the same question on the Cunard thread and you'll get knocked over by a tirade of comment about how wonderful it was in the good old days of that glorious liner QE2. QE and QV are apparently mere cruise ships, not liners. Everything is dumbed down, service levels have fallen, Carnival has ruined the brand.

 

Of course, people ignore the fact that in those halcyon days, few people could afford to sail Cunard and you were lucky if you could stump up for a cabin with a window.

 

I love sailing Cunard, as I do Celebrity. But I wouldn't go near any of the mega ships, with their rope slides and surf pools - 3000 or 4000 bodies crammed cheek by jowel in a way you won't find on a Cunard or X ship. That rules out the new P&O ships, the new Princess ships and most certainly the RCCI monsters.

 

The bottom line is that the market is very differentiated today and the cruise lines are giving people exactly what they want and charging accordingly. At least, it suits most of the people, most of the time.

 

 

.

[chessbriar]

I don't know if it was considered a "hostile" takeover or not.

I always saw it as a hostile take over. When Princess board members turned down Carnival's offers, Carnival turned to the stock holders with an obscene offer. They couldn't have another cruise line out there as larger as Carnival. Princess' main company P&O is a very larger company and would have made RCCL/P&O about the same size as Carnival.

 

These days, I'd say RCCL is a step above Princess with the way they have fallen

[Jade13]

Between 2003 and 2011 my wife and I use to alternate between Celebrity and Holland America. HAL has lost it's luster with us for a variety of reasons, which includes less service people, uninspired cuisine, old school decor, out-dated smoking policy, weak return customer program…,

 

This past summer we did a TA on Cunard's Queen Mary 2 (second time on the QM2) -- it felt like Holland America on Steroids. The MDR food was good, the buffet was awful, and Todd English is so so. Some great stuff, some not so great.

 

Yesterday we disembarked from the Golden Princess. Very tired ship, mediocre food, crowded everywhere, large cabin (mini-suite) that was brown, with brown, with a touch of ugly.

 

I don't want to "pile on" with Carnival's issues (Costa Concordia…,), but it seems like the products of Royal Caribbean (Celebrity, Royal Caribbean, Azamara) are head and shoulders better than anything Carnival Corp is offering? Oceania is great, but pretty expensive. We have no experience with the Ultra Luxury lines, and to be fair, we haven't tried NCL in many years.

 

We love the itineraries of HAL, Princess, and Cunard, but it will be a few years before we embark one of their ships. We have four cruises coming up -- three on Celebrity and one of RCI.

 

I'm not anti-Carnival, and I use to own their stock -- anyone else sense a change?

 

Enjoy!

Kel:)

 

Agree.

[Jade13]

IMHO RCCL is light years ahead of Carnival Corp when it comes to ship design and innovation. Even NCL has moved ahead of Carnival Corporation with their Breakaway and Breakaway Plus new builds. I also give credit to RCCL for spending the money on their fleet for revitalizations. They just completed the Vision class and now will move to the Voyager class. It wasn't too long ago that the Millie class was revitalized.

 

I have not cruised on Princess but have on HAL and Carnival. No interest in either one of them any time soon and Princess does not interest me at all. Their ships look boring. I think that we have found our cruise lines in RCI and Celebrity depending on what we are looking for in an overall cruise experience at the time. Both offer what we need.:)

 

Agree

[The Big Booper]

Look at all the flack Princess is taking over the brand new first-new-design-in-13-years Royal Princess. The regulars on the Princess board love it and ignore the many design flaws but the general cruising public, as shown on the reviews section, are lukewarm at best with many 3 and 2 and even 1 star assessments. That has to sting the suits at HQ.

 

Nothing shows incompetent management more then this.

 

When RCCL rolled out, in short order, the Oasis class followed by the S class, you never saw any reactions like this. And I'll bet that the Q ships will be well received.

 

Even many NOOTS have relented and tried the Oasis or Allure and liked them.

[bahrain_not_dubai!]

I was just on Crown Princess after 7 years. We used to like Princess a lot, now I don't think I'd go on them again.

 

It seems that it was a very bland, vanilla experience. It seems that it has "stood still" while other lines we've sailed on recently are more to our liking. Food is better on Celebrity and even entertainment is. Princess' entertainment seems stuck in the early 2000's. Even Personal Choice Dining which they started in about 2000 has taken a turn for the worst, since they expanded the dining rooms for Traditional.

 

I was initially interested in Royal Princess, but since I like sitting on our balcony, we won't consider that ship now.

 

(I also thought that Royal Caribbean stock was outperforming Carnival.)

 

This. It hits the nail on the head with what Princess seems to be these days.

 

Carnival Corporation has been struggling as of rate. While I still rate Holland America (classical/traditional- less premium than X but premium nonetheless) and Seabourn (ultra-luxury) for what they are, I do not think I'd be considering their other lines in the near future. It is a shame as only ten years ago they were leading their field. Describing Cunard as HAL/Princess on steroids is probably a good assessment. I have not sailed Cunard, but have heard the same from countless of people in the industry. In many ways the Cunard Line has become an ever-so-slightly more premium division of P&O Cruises, especially with the massive managerial/structural changes that recently took place at Carnival House in Southampton.

 

If this was a car analogy, too many times I feel like Carnival is morphing into a Crown Victoria. You can spec it as a standard Ford (Carnival), mid-range Mercury Grand Marquis (Princess) or a slightly nicer Town Car (HAL), but at the end of the day other than the decorations it is still the same, mediocre and somewhat outdated product. On the other hand, Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. has really managed to create three very different lines. The Solstice class is not simply a Voyager ship with nicer, more expensive interior design (ala the various Vista/Grand/Dream class ships used across the CCL brands). It is a whole new ship, from the keel up, that serves the brand in question best. Azamara has managed to emerge as a quality product with its own niche as well, and has recently been going from strength to strength. Royal Caribbean International has really managed to attract an 'International' audience, and become the world's favourite cruise line. While Royal Caribbean International and Carnival Cruise Lines have an equal capacity (62,220 berths per week vs. 62,370) the fact that RCI has managed to diversify and attract a truly global passenger base has allowed the line to charge premiums for their cruises pretty much across the board.

 

In the big scheme of things, RCCL only has 97,610 berths for sale per week while CCL has 208,710.

 

Based on this information, these are my calculations.

 

On a revenue of $7.35 billion last year, the revenue per berth for RCL was $77,143.73.

On a revenue of $15.382 billion last year, the revenue per berth for CCL was $73,700.35

 

On a net income of $607 million last year, the net profit per berth for RCL was $6,218.63

On a net income of $1.298 billion last year, the net profit per berth for CCL was $6,219.16

 

Okay, having not known that information until now, I am gobsmacked. Literally not a dollar between them!

 

Nonetheless, one has to believe that there is something amiss at Carnival Corporation. From a product point of view at least, many of their offerings have gone rather stale and struggle to compete with the corresponding RCL offering (in my opinion at least). This may be offset by the fact that divisions/lines of each cruise line is structured very differently. The various profit warnings issued by CCL lately as well as the sweeping changes in the structure of the company all show that something is wrong. What it is, one cannot say, but RCL at least seems to have the comfort of stability atm.

 

Thats me done arm-chair CEOing!

Edited December 2, 2013 by bahrain_not_dubai!

[MicCanberra]

I found Princess to be generally fine and enjoyed the cruises with them, however I have always felt X to be a slight step above and when comparing itineraries and price jumps ahead even more.:D

[Cindy]

Interesting topic! I haven't sailed on Celebrity yet, but I've been on RCI, Princess, HAL, and Carnival.

I probably won't take another Carnival cruise unless I'm going as part of a big group and that is what the group chooses. My Carnival cruises were fine, but by our last one in June of 2011 my husband and I both thought the service and entertainment had been cut so much that it had a major impact on the cruise. The daytime activities and evening entertainment weren't to our taste at all. The other thing we dislike about Carnival is there aren't any perks other than priority embarkation for sailing in a suite.

We liked all our Princess cruises. Until I retired in 2012 we were limited to cruising during school vacations because I was a principal. When PCL pulled out of Galveston we switched to RCI for our Spring Break cruises, and didn't switch back when Princess returned to the area. I would take a Princess cruise again if the circumstances were right. Working against PCL is it's hard to say no to the Diamond discount and perks on Royal Caribbean.

I wanted to love HAL -- and for a short while, I did. We had a great cruise on the Noordam this time last year. The only sour note on that trip was our very slow dinner service, but I know that can be the luck of the draw, so it was nothing that would have kept me from cruising with them again. We had an awesome aft-wrap corner suite, the food was outstanding, the ship was beautifully decorated for Christmas, and the itinerary was wonderful. My second HAL cruise was in September -- booked at the last minute to salvage vacation when our Millennium cruise got cancelled. I expected a similar experience since we were on a sister ship to the Noordam, but the cruise was very non-descript. There was just nothing memorable or distinctive about the ship, and the entertainment was practically non-existent. I'm a ship junkie...they just fascinate me. For the first time ever, I didn't spend a sea day taking pictures of the ship. There just wasn't anything that I thought was special enough to photograph.:(

That brings us to Royal Caribbean and the RCCL corporation. I haven't been on a Carnival, Princess, or HAL ship that even approaches the design and décor quality of RCI, and from what I've heard that is also a Celebrity trademark. One big complaint I have with the Carnival family of ships is they take a (flawed) basic ship design with numerous dead ends and level changes, and build it over, and over, and over again for all their brands. The RCI ships I've been on just seem to make sense to me, and I appreciate all the attention to detail in the décor and furnishings.

The other thing RCCL does that to me sets them apart from Carnival is the Loyalty program reciprocity they offer. Yes, I know some of you who are Elite or higher by virtue of your Celebrity cruises don't like it, but to me it's a huge incentive to keep it "in the family." I don't cruise for perks, but given two similar options, why wouldn't I choose the one where I will get perks?:D

I'm now hoping I love Celebrity. Despite their great itineraries, after my cruise in September I decided HAL really isn't for me. Unfortunately, with a cancelled cruise and now the website issues, Celebrity isn't off to a great start!:rolleyes: Hopefully the on-board product will make up for some of the land-based issues I've encountered.

[Despegue]

Unfortunately, nearly anything that comes out if the Fincantieri yards is an inferiour product compared to the quality and expert craftmanship from Meyer werf, Chantiers d'atlantique and AKER yards in Turku.

 

Carnival corp. almost exclusively uses Fincantieri as they are the cheapest.

 

From design to finishing, fincantieri is a disaster in my opinion.

[kitty9]

I totally agree with the OP. Carnival is fine for families and those wanting a less formal experience---and it works for those on a budget. My first few cruises were on Carnival. I adored my cruises on the QE2, but once Carnival got their hands on that line, it went down. I agree that the food on the QM2, and QV is just OK---even in the QG---but the buffet is a disaster. I thought Princess was fairly decent with their main deficiency being service. As for HAL, our recent cruise on Eurodam was a total disappointment, with the dark public hallways, bad food and service in the MDR, and terrible lack of air conditioning in the cabins. The only line Carnival hasn't ruined is Seabourn, but they nearly ruined that line until their loyal customers revolted and Carnival took a hands off policy towards Seabourn.

 

With their sheer size, Carnival will succeed, but they really need to take a look at their overall structure.

[SMSACE6]

I have had five very enjoyable cruises on Carnival, though my last one was back in 2010, and was the first time I noticed inconsistencies in service. That cruise, like all my Carnival cruises was enjoyable and I considered like the others to be a great cruise for the price!

 

However....I have not cruised since then, not on Carnival, or any other line for various reasons I wont go into.

 

Last year when I wanted to book a cruise, I researched and and chose NCL as my next cruise. That one also fell through, due to family circumstances. Now I am hoping, "hoping" that my next cruise will by on Celebrity with my Mom.

 

Whatever happens and if next cruise happens or not, I just hope to cruise a different line from Carnival, only to broaden my cruise experience. I will still cruise Carnival again, but only when I am cruising solo, as it is the only one, that I can afford solo. Otherwise, I will choose, NCL or Celebrity, and am open to others I have not yet tried.

[Lastdance]

Things change over time. We also grow older or more refined. Our preferences also change. Isn't it nice that we have a CHOICE in all of this? Experiences are the best judge of whether we want to continue with the same, or take a little risk and venture out of the known. Agree to disagree about cruises; all of our experiences are unique in many instances. Read CC to find who and what you agree with at the moment. Let your opinions be known. But better yet, don't expect cruise life to be perfect, and you will reap the benefits of the seas...find the good in the moment! I love that I have a choice! At this point in time, it is Celebrity for all the right reasons...:cool:

 

I have never sailed on Carnival because it just isn't the right fit for me. Yes, it has been in the news way too often, and for all the wrong reasons! Furthermore, cruiser' videos do not indicate the type of vacation I prefer.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Lastdance

[cjknox]

Between 2003 and 2011 my wife and I use to alternate between Celebrity and Holland America. HAL has lost it's luster with us for a variety of reasons, which includes less service people, uninspired cuisine, old school decor, out-dated smoking policy, weak return customer program…,

 

This past summer we did a TA on Cunard's Queen Mary 2 (second time on the QM2) -- it felt like Holland America on Steroids. The MDR food was good, the buffet was awful, and Todd English is so so. Some great stuff, some not so great.

 

Yesterday we disembarked from the Golden Princess. Very tired ship, mediocre food, crowded everywhere, large cabin (mini-suite) that was brown, with brown, with a touch of ugly.

 

I don't want to "pile on" with Carnival's issues (Costa Concordia…,), but it seems like the products of Royal Caribbean (Celebrity, Royal Caribbean, Azamara) are head and shoulders better than anything Carnival Corp is offering? Oceania is great, but pretty expensive. We have no experience with the Ultra Luxury lines, and to be fair, we haven't tried NCL in many years.

 

We love the itineraries of HAL, Princess, and Cunard, but it will be a few years before we embark one of their ships. We have four cruises coming up -- three on Celebrity and one of RCI.

 

I'm not anti-Carnival, and I use to own their stock -- anyone else sense a change?

 

Enjoy!

Kel:)

 

OP, I do agree with some of your points; in this case Carnival Corporation has "evolved" and to a certain extent all cruise lines have changed and evolved over the past few decades so I don't think this is something exclusive to Carnival and this fact is especially apparent to those who have been cruising for many years; and of course the personal preferences of people are highly subjective.

 

Thanks for your opinion.:)

Edited December 3, 2013 by cjknox

[dclark]

Invester Daily recently ran an article on CCL, saying that last quarter, they stopped the practice of dropping fares to insure sailing near capacity. The theory here is that if you have a limit for prices and sell with some empty cabins, it will help firm up prices.

For those who like to parrot "They must be doing something right, they sail full!", well, that has been put to rest.

However, also surprising was the state of the other CCL lines. While some will say that the Concordia, Splendour and Triumph ships put a dark shadow on CCL, NCL and RCL have seen growth in bookings. People ARE switching to RCL and NCL!

People are not just avoiding CCL; they are also avoiding Princess and Hal.

I have never been on HAL, but have sailed on Princess a lot and my last two cruises (most recently a year ago) saw more and more cost cutting.

That can be what is turning people away.

[cjknox]

Interesting topic! I haven't sailed on Celebrity yet, but I've been on RCI, Princess, HAL, and Carnival.

I wanted to love HAL -- and for a short while, I did. We had a great cruise on the Noordam this time last year. The only sour note on that trip was our very slow dinner service, but I know that can be the luck of the draw, so it was nothing that would have kept me from cruising with them again. We had an awesome aft-wrap corner suite, the food was outstanding, the ship was beautifully decorated for Christmas, and the itinerary was wonderful. My second HAL cruise was in September -- booked at the last minute to salvage vacation when our Millennium cruise got cancelled. I expected a similar experience since we were on a sister ship to the Noordam, but the cruise was very non-descript. There was just nothing memorable or distinctive about the ship, and the entertainment was practically non-existent. I'm a ship junkie...they just fascinate me. For the first time ever, I didn't spend a sea day taking pictures of the ship. There just wasn't anything that I thought was special enough to photograph.:(

That brings us to Royal Caribbean and the RCCL corporation. I haven't been on a Carnival, Princess, or HAL ship that even approaches the design and décor quality of RCI, and from what I've heard that is also a Celebrity trademark. One big complaint I have with the Carnival family of ships is they take a (flawed) basic ship design with numerous dead ends and level changes, and build it over, and over, and over again for all their brands. The RCI ships I've been on just seem to make sense to me, and I appreciate all the attention to detail in the décor and furnishings.

 

Very interesting point.

 

Keep in mind that there are huge differences between Royal Corp. a& Carnival Corp. especially in size. Think about it this way:

 

Carnival on one hand has 11 total cruise lines and 7 of them receive new builds on a regular basis. It's important to understand that it would be impossible for Carnival to design fresh platforms for every brand; because it would be too great of a financial obligation. That's why Carnival and Costa share platforms and Princess & P&O share platforms, and Costa and HAL share platforms.

 

Royal Caribbean on the other hand has 5 brands in their portfolio but only has two that receive new ships on a regular basis. This is important because it allows them to have more options regarding their platform designs and it is unnecessary for them share between just two brands. However, I do think it's interesting that they have decided to build Quantum and Anthem using a stretched Solstice class platform. I think the new TUI newbuilds are derived from the Solstice platform too.

[jonbgd]

Princess has gone down hill since CCL took over

Celebrity is way above Princess IN overall QUALITY

[golfadj]

Interesting thread.

 

we will be doing our first Princess next year a TA.

 

Very active roll call with many elite Princess cruisers and they all seem to like the direction of Princess.

 

I do think that Carnival has gone downhill in terms of entertainment last few yers but still think the food and service are good.

 

Hopefully the changes in management will lead to improvements.