Is this B2B itinerary legal?

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Wiki is as usual economic with the truth. Go to the CBP web site it will tell you it is $5000 per passenger. I was also told that amount today from the Rci rep who explained everything to me.

 

I went to the CBP website as you suggested and this is what it said:

 

The coastwise law governing the transportation of passengers was first established by § 8 of the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) of June 19, 1886, 24 Stat. 81; as amended by § 2 of the Act of February 17, 1898, 30 Stat. 248, formerly codified at 46 U.S.C. App. § 289 (now codified at 46 U.S.C. § 55103). That statute provided that “no foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 [now $300, as promulgated in Treasury Decision (T.D.) 03-11 (March 21, 2003) pursuant to the Federal Civil Penalties Inflation Adjustment Act of 1990, 28 U.S.C. 2461 note] for each passenger so transported and landed.”

 

Like I would take the word of a cruise line rep. Most of them don't know the law exist or call it by the wrong name, "Jones Act."

 

Bill

[LetsGetWet!]

You can not embark in one US port and disembark in another US port. Even though you are doing a b2b which had 2 separate booking numbers you are embarking at one US port and disembarking at another which is not allowed.

 

We could not do a b2b that included Cape Liberty to Quebec and then Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale in October of 2015 because it is in violation of the PVSA act.

 

The Questionnaire Pay attention to Question #4.

 

Answering "YES" to ALL of the questions below will likely constitute a PVSA violation.

 

1.Will you initially embark in a US port?

 

2.Will your voyage be entirely on the same vessel?

 

3.Is the vessel registered and flagged in a foreign nation?

 

4.Will your final disembarkation be at a different US port than which you initially embarked at (note that this may include previously unplanned disembarkation during the middle of a cruise due to illness/injury/emergency)?

 

5.Will your voyage only include ports within North America (Hawaii included. Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire excluded)?

 

Well done Patti. I've had enough of trying to explain this to people who want to believe otherwise ;)

Not arguing at all, but surely there must be SOME amount of time between the two legs under discussion which would make it legal. If I take the two back-to-back cruises the OP mentioned, its definitely illegal, I understand. But if I take the first leg and then a year later take the second leg, surely its legal. Therefore, my question out of curiosity is - how much time must pass between leg #1 and leg #2 to make it legal? Overnight one night? Longer?

[bigeck]

I went to the CBP website as you suggested and this is what it said:

 

The coastwise law governing the transportation of passengers was first established by § 8 of the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA) of June 19, 1886, 24 Stat. 81; as amended by § 2 of the Act of February 17, 1898, 30 Stat. 248, formerly codified at 46 U.S.C. App. § 289 (now codified at 46 U.S.C. § 55103). That statute provided that “no foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 [now $300, as promulgated in Treasury Decision (T.D.) 03-11 (March 21, 2003) pursuant to the Federal Civil Penalties Inflation Adjustment Act of 1990, 28 U.S.C. 2461 note] for each passenger so transported and landed.”

 

Like I would take the word of a cruise line rep. Most of them don't know the law exist or call it by the wrong name, "Jones Act."

 

Bill

 

Today she did call it the pvsa. I'll have a look later to see where I saw the fine. I'm sure someone else stated on here it was a lot more than $300

[cruisenfever]

Not arguing at all, but surely there must be SOME amount of time between the two legs under discussion which would make it legal. If I take the two back-to-back cruises the OP mentioned, its definitely illegal, I understand. But if I take the first leg and then a year later take the second leg, surely its legal. Therefore, my question out of curiosity is - how much time must pass between leg #1 and leg #2 to make it legal? Overnight one night? Longer?

Of course that would be legal, but then again, you are not doing a consecutive cruise (aka B2B). You are basically doing 2 cruises at different times of the year, even it you are booked on the same ship.

 

If you book a cruise on the same ship but there is a week in between, it really isn't a b2b. If you book two cruises that involve 2 different ships and there is a night or day in between, then it would be considered a b2b.

Edited February 21, 2014 by cruisenfever

[LetsGetWet!]

Of course that would be legal, but then again, you are not doing a consecutive cruise (aka B2b). You are basically doing 2 cruises at different times of the year, even it you are booked on the same ship.

Right - and that's my question. How separated do those "different times of the year" have to be? Surely that has to be addressed somewhere in the legalese. If the same day, its clearly illegal. If a year has passed, its (pretty) clearly legal. How about six months? A month? A week? A day? Probably "a week" is the most important, because it might be possible to get off and catch the same ship a week later on occasion.

[cruisenfever]

Right - and that's my question. How separated do those "different times of the year" have to be? Surely that has to be addressed somewhere in the legalese. If the same day, its clearly illegal. If a year has passed, its (pretty) clearly legal. How about six months? A month? A week? A day? Probably "a week" is the most important, because it might be possible to get off and catch the same ship a week later on occasion.

I edited my post above.

 

"If you book a cruise on the same ship but there is a week in between, it really isn't a b2b. If you book two cruises that involve 2 different ships and there is a night or day in between, then it would be considered a b2b".

[LetsGetWet!]

I edited my post above.

 

"If you book a cruise on the same ship but there is a week in between, it really isn't a b2b. If you book two cruises that involve 2 different ships and there is a night or day in between, then it would be considered a b2b".

Except several people in this thread have said that the way to get around this law is simply to book the legs on two different ships, even without a day/night in between? :confused:

[crzndeb]

Except several people in this thread have said that the way to get around this law is simply to book the legs on two different ships, even without a day/night in between? :confused:

 

Correct...you don't need to spend a night if you are changing ships. The law pertains to the SAME vessel transporting a passenger between 2 US ports.

 

I'm not sure of the time frame for booking but I don't think a ship that overnights in a port makes it legal, since you are technically still on the ship...does that make sense?

 

I can't think of any other scenarios that would come into play. Plus, most of these questions come up in the spring and fall, when ships are repositioning to and from Alaska. And most of the questionable sailings only come up once.

[LetsGetWet!]

Correct...you don't need to spend a night if you are changing ships. The law pertains to the SAME vessel transporting a passenger between 2 US ports.

 

I'm not sure of the time frame for booking but I don't think a ship that overnights in a port makes it legal, since you are technically still on the ship...does that make sense?

 

I can't think of any other scenarios that would come into play. Plus, most of these questions come up in the spring and fall, when ships are repositioning to and from Alaska. And most of the questionable sailings only come up once.

Just idle speculation at this point - but if it overnights in a port between 2 legs of a B2B, and you get off and spend that night in a hotel room before reboarding, I think there's a good argument that that should be ok. How often does that opportunity even present itself? Probably not often if at all! :)

[cruisenfever]

Except several people in this thread have said that the way to get around this law is simply to book the legs on two different ships, even without a day/night in between? :confused:

You got it!! :D

[BillB48]

Just idle speculation at this point - but if it overnights in a port between 2 legs of a B2B, and you get off and spend that night in a hotel room before reboarding, I think there's a good argument that that should be ok. How often does that opportunity even present itself? Probably not often if at all! :)

 

From what I have read that doesn't clear you from the PVSA requirements. The amount of time in between the two cruises doesn't come into play at all. The violation all hinges on the same ship is doing the transporting without the distant foreign port. What happens in cases such as this is the CBP is not drilling down too deeply to discover a possible violation. Cruises like HON-YVR and then on to Seward or similar are the ones that are watched closely for PVSA violations

[ahecht]

In term of a B2B, the legal language considers it one voyage if it is continuous or if the intended purpose or objective is transportation between ports. In the case of two cruises separated by a year, I think it would be hard to argue that there is a purpose or objective, but for an overnight stop there is (unless you switch ships).

[TravelerThom]

Interesting to note in the previously mentioned http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/...t/pvsa_icp.pdf that on a closed loop cruise from the US, an emergency medical evacuation from the ship to any US location other than point of origin is explicitly a violation of PVSA and will be fined!:eek: WOW!

 

Thom

[mr walker]

I did notice Radiance has a 7 day break before going to Hawaii this year.

 

Yes, the break is a Jazz charter cruise - we found out in planning our cruises for this year, so are doing Rhapsody B2B2B departing Seattle & going all the way home to Sydney :D

 

Of course, don't know at this stage for 2015.

Edited February 22, 2014 by mr walker

[hellsop]

Interesting to note in the previously mentioned http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/...t/pvsa_icp.pdf that on a closed loop cruise from the US, an emergency medical evacuation from the ship to any US location other than point of origin is explicitly a violation of PVSA and will be fined!:eek: WOW!

 

Probably one of the reasons that (even if there's a port 20 miles over thar), the crusie ship would rather have the coast guard come out and pick the passenger up. No port, no foul.

[hellsop]

Just idle speculation at this point - but if it overnights in a port between 2 legs of a B2B, and you get off and spend that night in a hotel room before reboarding, I think there's a good argument that that should be ok. How often does that opportunity even present itself? Probably not often if at all! :)

 

Wild-assed guess (I Am Not A (Sea) Lawyer): the clearest way for a vessel to show that it's in fact two different journeys would be that there is no consecutivity of occupation of accommodations on the same ship. That is, if you take a cruise, then get off, with all your stuff, and the ship does a run with other people paying for the cabin you left and the one you're going to occupy next, then you get back on with all your stuff, that would be an entirely separate journey, even if you didn't go home.

[ladysail2]

BTY, it also applies to aircraft & Airlines.

 

 

 

.....and applies to the freight/household trucking industry as well. A driver from Canada (assuming properly licensed, etc) can deliver goods from Canada to a US city......and pick up goods from a US city and deliver them into Canada....but cannot pick up goods from one US city and deliver them to another US city.....

 

It does happen...but getting caught entails large fines and loss of license.

:D

[skiiergirl]

Ok ...PVSA experts....

 

Why is voyage B acceptable by itself (no distance foreign port) but doing it as a b2b with voyage A unacceptable?

 

Voyage A:

San Juan

Tortola

St Kitts

St Maarten

Dominica

Barbados

Cruising

San Juan

 

voyage B :

San Juan

cruising

Cruising

Canal cruising

Puntarenas, Costa Rica

Cruising

Puerto Quetzal, Guatemala

cruising

Cruising

Puert Vallarta, Mexico

Cabo San Lucas, Mexico

Cruising

Ensenada, Mexico

San Diego

[Clarea]

Ok ...PVSA experts....

 

Why is voyage B acceptable by itself (no distance foreign port) but doing it as a b2b with voyage A unacceptable?

 

Voyage A:

San Juan

Tortola

St Kitts

St Maarten

Dominica

Barbados

Cruising

San Juan

 

voyage B :

San Juan

cruising

Cruising

Canal cruising

Puntarenas, Costa Rica

Cruising

Puerto Quetzal, Guatemala

cruising

Cruising

Puert Vallarta, Mexico

Cabo San Lucas, Mexico

Cruising

Ensenada, Mexico

San Diego

I don't understand because I thought San Juan was one of the exceptions to the PVSA.

[Ourusualbeach]

I don't understand because I thought San Juan was one of the exceptions to the PVSA.

 

Is that an automatic exemption or one that has to be applied for and a permit or something issued? In which case they may received an exemption for the second cruise but not the first. Totally guessing here because that is indeed strange.

[SnappyNappi]

I've been reading about the PVSA and Jones act for years. Finally saw something that discussed the Jones Act. Forgot which US cities were involved, but a US city that is running out of salt for their roads due to the bad winter is trying to get a shipload of salt deliver from another US port. The only ship available to deliver the road salt was foreign flagged vessel, so they couldn't get their salt shipped - JONES ACT.

This news article was about New Jersey and New York about a week or so ago... and it was indeed a discussion about the Jones Act and if government should allow exceptions to the law in times of emergency. The entire Northeast has had so much snow this winter that we ran out of salt - COMPLETELY and it was causing government and school closings because roads were impassable. They were not allowed to bring the salt from one US port to a different US port because it was a non-US flagged ship (a ship registered to a foreign country). Because that was the only ship available at the time, New Jersey had to wait until a US-Flagged ship could transport the salt needed from a southern US port directly to the northeastern US port. This started a discussion about the transportation laws being outdated and causing more issues and problems than they solve in today's world.

 

I am not in a position of government, nor do I claim to know enough to be able to pass judgement on laws and commerce - however... It would be my belief that commerce rules and laws governing transportation and fair trade should be reviewed by government more than every century as technology and economic conditions change over the course of any decade... a century or a century and a half is a long time to assume that the laws governing them are still necessary and appropriate.

[mjldvlks]

Ok ...PVSA experts....

 

Why is voyage B acceptable by itself (no distance foreign port) but doing it as a b2b with voyage A unacceptable?

 

Voyage A:

San Juan

Tortola

St Kitts

St Maarten

Dominica

Barbados

Cruising

San Juan

 

voyage B :

San Juan

cruising

Cruising

Canal cruising

Puntarenas, Costa Rica

Cruising

Puerto Quetzal, Guatemala

cruising

Cruising

Puert Vallarta, Mexico

Cabo San Lucas, Mexico

Cruising

Ensenada, Mexico

San Diego

 

WHile there is an exception for transporting passengers to and fromsJath rest of the US, as Clarea said, I am not sure what the issue is here. Cruise B is SJ to San Diego. Cruise A&B combined is still SJ to San Diego. Should be treated the same.

Edited February 26, 2014 by mjldvlks

[LetsGetWet!]

I am not in a position of government, nor do I claim to know enough to be able to pass judgement on laws and commerce - however... It would be my belief that commerce rules and laws governing transportation and fair trade should be reviewed by government more than every century as technology and economic conditions change over the course of any decade... a century or a century and a half is a long time to assume that the laws governing them are still necessary and appropriate.

A very wise observation, I'd say! Unfortunately, we're talking government - and government and wisdom quite often don't go together... :o

[whitshel]

Looks like both would be acceptable. Who is saying the b2b is not acceptable?

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Forums mobile app

Edited February 26, 2014 by whitshel

[cruisenfever]

I don't understand because I thought San Juan was one of the exceptions to the PVSA.

You have to be careful when doing a repo cruise. The way I understand her situation is that she is doing a R/T SJU for her first cruise which is fine, but then she is adding the repo cruise that ends in a different US port which is in violation of the PVSA act.

 

It's like combining the Hawaii repo cruise with the first Alaska cruise of the season. Hawaii to Vancouver to Seattle is not allowed, but Hawaii to Vancouver to Vancouver is allowed.