Two Killed in Cruise Ship Berthing Accident on Independence of the Sea

[seb]

So, do you think this is a cover-up? Not being facetious, just curious.

 

While I can't say what Kittsian law enforcement procedures are, if there was any mismanagement, wouldn't that come out when the investigation procedure is reviewed by higher authority there? Perhaps there were other dock workers who saw the incident, and gave statements to the police. I'm not saying this was a "thorough and complete" investigation or not, I'm just saying that it apparently met the requirements of St. Kitts, or the ship would not have been allowed to sail.

 

While the surveillance video from RCI could be tampered with, the voice and data recorders onboard are just like on airlines, where you need to remove the hard drive to access the recordings. So, at least some impartial data exists, though it may not be all that pertinent. It would show, though, a definitive timeline, as some eyewitness posters here have claimed that the propulsion was quickly shut down, and others that it took 10 minutes. Also, the recorders on the Celebrity ship could be accessed to see if her propulsion was on at the time. Since the Silhouette was scheduled to depart one hour later than Independence, she may have been performing the required testing of the propulsion at the exact time that Independence was leaving, though I would doubt that her pods would have been pointed towards the dock during this.

 

 

I wouldn't and didn't say that as I don't have all the facts surrounding the investigation. My original point was that this investigation doesn't meet the standard of "thorough and complete" without at least talking to all eye witnesses let alone getting their evidence.

 

And I respectfully disagree that the authorities "have no choice but to be satisfied". When life is lost, there is a choice. The ship didn't have to sail away 4 1/2 hrs after the incident. I actually expected to be in St. Kitt overnight with the amount of interviews that, IMHO, should have occurred. It's not imposing "our standards" on another country. It's conducting a professional, thorough and complete investigation. I do believe families of tragedies like these deserve that.

[cruzincurt]

Independence was preparing to leave the two men in a 24 foot min boat with two outboard engines were in between our ships Celebrity silhouette independence is much longer my room was even with celebrity end of there ship. Our rear engines were on then all of a sudden the side thrusters went on clearly no from the bridge looked it shot the small boat with the men closer to the back of the celebrity boat like a toy they had no chance to do anything the I clearly saw the water swirling in the back of the celebrity ship two perfect swirls (the man on the balcony above me who is in the coast guard said he also saw there engines start ) the mix of both waters meeting capsized their boat they were screaming for them to shut the engines off . They both had life vests on but being thrown out tore on man who was slender off , didn't matter they were immediately sucked under the celebrity ship and never came back up . We were all screaming and it took 10 minutes for the swirling behind the celebrity. To stop and for some reason beyond me the independence after 15 minutes backed up enough to clear the dock and then we sat there until 9:30 or 10 pm . No one came to help from any wear for 30 minute and then it was a local diver with a snorkel and mask . Our Boat dropped two boats finally

Thy found one man at 8 pm and the other 1/2 hour later . It was awful and honestly I expected more from Royal Caribbean . They called it an unfortunate accident! I hope both captains are fired . This was completely avoidable . We were always rushing to every port yet some how always arrived late , I can't get the images out of my head a and my best friend who was with me was hysterical and in shock we called the doctor on the ship and were told he was busy and it took two days for them to call and ask how she was! So disappointed in RCCL

Why would our ship, the Silhouette, start her engine while still tied to the dock and not scheduled to leave for another hour?

 

I think your time line is wrong, the first man was recovered way before 8:00.

 

A harbor police boat arrived very shortly, (maybe 10 minutes) after the Independence got away from the dock and a man dove into the water to search the overturned boat. Why the heck did Independence keep going????

 

It shows how different "eyewitness" stories can be. Earlier an "eyewitness" stated the wrong Celebrity ship name. Seems like the lettering is a couple of feet tall on the ships bow and stern.

Edited April 9, 2014 by cruzincurt

[chengkp75]

Why would our ship, the Silhouette, start her engine while still tied to the dock and not scheduled to leave for another hour?

 

I think your time line is wrong, the first man was recovered way before 8:00.

 

A harbor police boat arrived very shortly, (maybe 10 minutes) after the Independence got away from the dock and a man dove into the water to search the overturned boat. Why the heck did Independence keep going????

 

It shows how different "eyewitness" stories can be. Earlier an "eyewitness" stated the wrong Celebrity ship name. Seems like the lettering is a couple of feet tall on the ships bow and stern.

 

Ships are required to test the propulsion within an hour of leaving a dock. However, the test is at minimum power (obviously, to keep the ship from moving), and is limited to a minute or so.

 

The Independence was probably directed to clear the dock area so that the search for the bodies could be made. Very hard to see things under a ship's hull.

[chengkp75]

I wouldn't and didn't say that as I don't have all the facts surrounding the investigation. My original point was that this investigation doesn't meet the standard of "thorough and complete" without at least talking to all eye witnesses let alone getting their evidence.

 

And I respectfully disagree that the authorities "have no choice but to be satisfied". When life is lost, there is a choice. The ship didn't have to sail away 4 1/2 hrs after the incident. I actually expected to be in St. Kitt overnight with the amount of interviews that, IMHO, should have occurred. It's not imposing "our standards" on another country. It's conducting a professional, thorough and complete investigation. I do believe families of tragedies like these deserve that.

 

And again, I say that your standard of thorough and complete may be way over what the local authorities feel is thorough and complete. How do you know what the people of St. Kitts expect from their law enforcement officials? Yes, you are overlaying your legal standards and your feelings of morality on another culture.

 

And I trust Aquahound, who is a Marine Accident Investigator, who has worked with the Kittsian authorities.

[iheartbda]

..................

It shows how different "eyewitness" stories can be. Earlier an "eyewitness" stated the wrong Celebrity ship name. Seems like the lettering is a couple of feet tall on the ships bow and stern.

There's an old law school experiment to illustrate the shortcomings of eyewitness accounts. Someone "unexpectredly" comes rushing into the classroom brandishing a weapon, or some scenario. Afterwards, the students are asked for a description of the suspect and what happened. All accounts are not the same.

 

BTW, the poster who had the wrong ship did come back and explain their mistake.;)

[littlesteelo]

A point I would mention regarding Captain Remo going on vacation soon after, he has been on his rotation since late January, which puts it right at the 10 week point, the usual time spent onboard for a captain.

[Aquahound]

Ships are required to test the propulsion within an hour of leaving a dock. However, the test is at minimum power (obviously, to keep the ship from moving), and is limited to a minute or so.

 

The Independence was probably directed to clear the dock area so that the search for the bodies could be made. Very hard to see things under a ship's hull.

 

Ordering the behemoth away from the dock would be my first command. The ship was leaving the dock to begin with and the last thing I would want is for it to come back. Asking the divers to go in and possibly have to look under a hull with minimal clearance and restricted visibility would be absurd.

 

Another thing...I've done line handling work. Line handling from a small boat is an art. I don't know how well these guys are trained in the Caribbean, but I do know they don't always use the best boats with adequate horsepower. One thing I knew...when in the area of thrusters, azipods, etc, I better have kept my bow facing that ship and one hand better have been on those throttles. An unmooring ship has restricted maneuverability and is using quite a bit of throttle.

 

On the surface, I am not seeing fault on RCI's part. But I certainly would be reviewing logs on Celebrity. I'm not saying Celebrity did anything wrong, but it could be a lesson learned.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Aquahound

[CVU]

A point I would mention regarding Captain Remo going on vacation soon after, he has been on his rotation since late January, which puts it right at the 10 week point, the usual time spent onboard for a captain.

 

We were on board B2Bs and also the week before. The Capt. told us he was taking his holiday in April.

[alreadypacked]

That's the point. There was never an attempt to gather any evidence, statements or video, from anyone other than RCI personnel.

 

I was on Silhouette, not Independence... But with all due respect, how would you really know whether any passengers aboard Independence were interviewed or had evidence gathered from them or not.

 

There were thousands of passengers aboard. Investigators could have talked to RCI personnel...and several passengers as well.

 

How would you really know for sure unless you were involved in the investigation? Maybe you were (I, of course, do not know for sure).

 

My point is that unless one was directly involved in the investigation (as an investigator, witness, evidence giver etc.), how would you really know to what the extent the investigation was proceeding?

 

My DH with whom I was traveling is a homicide sergeant, and the only thing we knew about the incident and investigation while aboard the Silhouette was the little we witnessed firsthand and what was announced on the PA system.

[Aquahound]

My DH with whom I was traveling is a homicide sergeant, and the only thing we knew about the incident and investigation while aboard the Silhouette was the little we witnessed firsthand and what was announced on the PA system.

 

That's a good point. When people don't see something happening, they tend to think it isn't. On the other hand, if they, themselves, were a witness, I would hope they would focus their efforts on contacting the authorities to give statement rather than complaining about them on the internet.

[ATC cruiser]

I was on Silhouette, not Independence... But with all due respect, how would you really know whether any passengers aboard Independence were interviewed or had evidence gathered from them or not.

 

There were thousands of passengers aboard. Investigators could have talked to RCI personnel...and several passengers as well.

 

How would you really know for sure unless you were involved in the investigation? Maybe you were (I, of course, do not know for sure).

 

My point is that unless one was directly involved in the investigation (as an investigator, witness, evidence giver etc.), how would you really know to what the extent the investigation was proceeding?

 

My DH with whom I was traveling is a homicide sergeant, and the only thing we knew about the incident and investigation while aboard the Silhouette was the little we witnessed firsthand and what was announced on the PA system.

 

 

I was on Indy, and I'll guaranty you very few, if any, passengers were interviewed. No announcements were made asking for witnesses to the accident to come forward. We left by 9pm, how many people could they have interviewed. Not until we were already underway did the captain come on the PA and inform the passengers what had happened. Until then the only information was given by the cruise director. He made two announcements that pretty much said, we're involved in a recovery effort, nothing to be worried about, continue to have fun. He was very upbeat. I had an aft balcony, saw the boat capsize less than 100 ft from me. I knew what the outcome of the search was going to be. It sounded like the cruise director could of cared any less about it. It sounded like he was judging the belly flop contest. Before anybody starts defending him and says he was just doing his job, I say BS. By the time he made the first announcement most everybody on the boat knew what happened. When he came on the PA the dining room went silent, when was the last time you've seen that happen. Now I'm not blaming RCI or defending RCI, but they are a corporation, and their number one goal is to cover their butts. Like someone else said, I was very surprised that we even left that night.

 

 

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[nolesrule]

We should keep in mind that these cruise ships have video cameras everywhere these days. And the eyewitness accounts told on these forums that recount things differently show that eyewitnesses are just not that reliable.

 

Between video evidence, computer data and accounts from those actually involved in the unmooring procedures, they can probably reconstruct things better without having to weed through all the conflicting accounts of what happened.

 

 

Furthermore, and this is just an opinion, if what some here have stated is correct about procedure and that the boat should have stayed away until after Indy had pulled out (which makes sense from a safety point of view, since an unmoored cruise ship needs to be under its own ability to maneuver at all times), there's not a single eyewitness on the ship, including the crew, that can provide information to answer the "why".

[CRUISEFAN0001]

We should keep in mind that these cruise ships have video cameras everywhere these days. And the eyewitness accounts told on these forums that recount things differently show that eyewitnesses are just not that reliable.

 

Between video evidence, computer data and accounts from those actually involved in the unmooring procedures, they can probably reconstruct things better without having to weed through all the conflicting accounts of what happened.

 

 

Furthermore, and this is just an opinion, if what some here have stated is correct about procedure and that the boat should have stayed away until after Indy had pulled out (which makes sense from a safety point of view, since an unmoored cruise ship needs to be under its own ability to maneuver at all times), there's not a single eyewitness on the ship, including the crew, that can provide information to answer the "why".

Kudos - very well said!

[chengkp75]

Kudos - very well said!

 

And, again, it was not RCI's decision to leave port, it was the authorities who said it was clear to sail.

[nolesrule]

And, again, it was not RCI's decision to leave port, it was the authorities who said it was clear to sail.

 

Also an excellent point. The ship would not have been allowed to "leave town".

[ATC cruiser]

We should keep in mind that these cruise ships have video cameras everywhere these days. And the eyewitness accounts told on these forums that recount things differently show that eyewitnesses are just not that reliable.

 

Between video evidence, computer data and accounts from those actually involved in the unmooring procedures, they can probably reconstruct things better without having to weed through all the conflicting accounts of what happened.

 

 

Furthermore, and this is just an opinion, if what some here have stated is correct about procedure and that the boat should have stayed away until after Indy had pulled out (which makes sense from a safety point of view, since an unmoored cruise ship needs to be under its own ability to maneuver at all times), there's not a single eyewitness on the ship, including the crew, that can provide information to answer the "why".

 

 

I agree with that 100%, they should of stayed away from Indy. They are the ones most responsible for their own safety.

 

 

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[Big_G]

I was on Indy, and I'll guaranty you very few, if any, passengers were interviewed. No announcements were made asking for witnesses to the accident to come forward. We left by 9pm, how many people could they have interviewed. Not until we were already underway did the captain come on the PA and inform the passengers what had happened. Until then the only information was given by the cruise director. He made two announcements that pretty much said, we're involved in a recovery effort, nothing to be worried about, continue to have fun. He was very upbeat. I had an aft balcony, saw the boat capsize less than 100 ft from me. I knew what the outcome of the search was going to be. It sounded like the cruise director could of cared any less about it. It sounded like he was judging the belly flop contest. Before anybody starts defending him and says he was just doing his job, I say BS. By the time he made the first announcement most everybody on the boat knew what happened. When he came on the PA the dining room went silent, when was the last time you've seen that happen. Now I'm not blaming RCI or defending RCI, but they are a corporation, and their number one goal is to cover their butts. Like someone else said, I was very surprised that we even left that night.

 

 

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Let's not forget that the investigation is not the responsibility of Royal Caribbean. Of course for their own purposes they'll conduct an internal investigation but they're an involved participant. If the St. Kitts authority wanted more information or witnesses it's their responsibility to ask for it. There are some angry people on this thread but I don't see where any of them stepped up to give a statement and were denied the opportunity. Lets also remember this was an accident. As tragic as it is, it's still an accident.

[rubrrick]

From just an informative point of view, with posters like several enforcement officers, active or retired, and people like chengkp75, who is in the industy, and Aquahound, whom I have known for some time personally, and know his position in life, as a lead maritime investigator, I just wanted to say "thank you" to all that have brought out so many elements of this occurance.

 

Sad that it happened, but things like this happen with more occurance than most like to think about, all over the world.

 

When it comes close to home, with a Royal Caribbean ship, at a port that so many of us have visited, and probably witnessed the same people that lost their lives, that we have watched work the lines, both when the ship is docking, and and getting ready to sail away from the pier, it becomes continuing news, and fact and fiction here on CC.

 

A good read! Thanks to the "pros" for weighing in here.

 

Rick

Edited April 11, 2014 by rubrrick

[ahecht]

After this sad event I would bet he would be addressed as "Ex-Captain"....He WAS in charge.....

How corporate deals with the officers on the IOS, will also be hushed. If the captains name dissapears from the current captain thread, we will know how corporate decided to deal with it. Only time will tell.

On the last night of the cruise at the goodbye show, they said that the captain was going on vacation the next day. I read that a bit differently from what they said. As an airline captain, I figured he's done as a captain for RCCL (similar to Southwest at LGA, with no loss of life in that case). It's too much liability for the cruise line to keep him, on the off-chance that something else happened with him down the road, whether or not he was at all to blame in the incident. Far better to pay him to retire.

While legalities may still allow the Captain to maintain license and position I do not believe RCI will have interest in keeping the Captain aboard. While this may ultimately be discovered to be a tragic accident and blame not able to be directly assigned to the Captains actions they are ultimately responsible for their vessel and unlike a grounding, pier collision, or close quarter collision with another ship, my gut instinct is, legal responsibility or not, RCI won't want to continue with a Captain that has a cloud over their head from a loss of life.

 

Just as a followup, Captain Remo started a new rotation aboard Independence on 6-14-2014. Looks like he didn't get the boot.

[dna1990]

I missed the original thread...but I suppose all this explains why the freeway gets shutdown every time a small accident occurs and everyone wants to pass ten more "regulations".

 

People. Can't you see more than five feet in front of you? None of us are going to make it out of here alive. All this blame and liability is crippling us. I just don't get it.

 

Stay in your house of bubble wrap and TURN OFF the news. You would be so much happier and you wouldn't be in my business every time I turned around.

 

I applaud the professional discussions that attempted to explain how this all works, but you see what you are up against when logic and scale is overrun by misplaced compassion and some sense that one more rule will save the day for all creatures in the universe.

 

Should the cruise lines and port authorities look over the event with a serious review? Sure. Risk management is a part of every business process, and gasp it does include dollars. I don't have any stats, but in the number of dockings and passengers handled every day in just the Caribbean, I don't feel there is some alarming trend of dock workers peril. Risky job? Sure. Hard work? Sure. Tragic? Sure. But all this talk of firings and taking too long to stop and not staying long enough etc - just seems silly to me.

 

Same silliness I see when we sit in traffic for 70 minutes waiting while TWO fire trucks completely close off lanes to clear a non injury accident. Our over reactions are going to bite back hard one day. It is not a pretty future when we are so conditioned to go along with such thoughts.

Edited June 18, 2014 by dna1990

[John&LaLa]

Don't mean to be crass, but dock workers should know how to swim.

 

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[Ourusualbeach]

Don't mean to be crass, but dock workers should know how to swim.

 

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Neither swimming nor life jackets would have made a difference against the undertow that they unfortunately got caught in.

[CRUISEFAN0001]

Surprised to see that this 11-week old unfortunate accident story is still being actively discussed. Certainly is was a sad event.

[Ocean Boy]

Don't mean to be crass, but dock workers should know how to swim.

 

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Do you have any idea of what type of currents are produced by ships' props especially with other objects close by like piers, pilings, and another ship?

[cruiserdudebobby8]

which captain was onbaord the day of the accident?

 

 

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