Noro on Riviera again

[RJB]

I think that the main problem is in the washrooms. If someone leaves a cubicle and washes their hands they have to turn the tap on, if they have noro virus it can then be on the tap, they thoroughly wash their hands but have to touch the same tap to turn it off, picking up the virus again on their hands, same goes for any other person following. Not sure what the system is on Riviera but it makes sense for all cruise ships to have sensor activated soap and water, this would greatly reduce the spread. Personally I never touch the taps or door handles in public washrooms, I always use wipes or a tissue to turn on and off and to exit. Sensor activation is something that O should consider unless in place already.

In all the public washrooms on Riviera they have sensors to turn the water on and off. You will have to look elsewhere to find the problem.

[Travelcat2]

I guess the virus did not get the memo for our May cruise on Marina :rolleyes:

 

What a load of misinformation

 

 

As stated previously, I am quoting and providing information from the United States Center for Disease Control as well as from the US Environmental Protection Agency Office of Pesticide Programs. IMO, making comments such as you did makes me look bad (which isn't a big deal) but also makes valuable information seem irrelevant. This does the opposite of what so many of us are trying to do which is help each other.

 

TravelerThom: Thank you for your comments and also for posting what I was about to post. Yes - norovirus and the cold virus are around all of the time but mostly show up in the winter. On one of the many websites I've researched this week, it seems that the "high season" for norovirus is between November and April with the peak being January, February and March.

 

Sorry to learn that the world cruise is being affected (as is a Regent ship that I mentioned earlier although they are calling it gastroenteritis rather than norovirus but is being treated the same way).

[eroller]

eroller - I think you missed post #92 which gave a link to the CDC inspection report done on the Riviera in December.

This report cites 4 crewmembers, 3 in food service, who had symptoms of acute gastroenteritis and who continued to work and eat in the crew mess for many hours - or a full day in one case - before reporting. All 4 were disciplined for their actions. Your notion of the squeaky clean behavior of crew is not borne out by the facts.

 

 

I'm not sure I ever said the crew is completely innocent. They are humans after all and like all humans some will follow the rules and others will not. It is a fact that crew illness numbers in pretty much every Noro outbreak are much lower than those of passengers. Part of that is just because there is a lower percentage of crew onboard, but I would say the far more compelling reason is that the crew are trained in these matters and take the proper precautions each and every day (or at least most do). Passengers do not, and as we have seen pointed out in this thread can be very selfish and put others at risk even when they should be guaranteed. Also it's much more difficult for the crew to hide the symptoms and continue working. Having had Noro on Holland America I can say that working is pretty much impossible once the virus takes hold. The bathroom becomes your best friend. The other issue is the contagious period of Noro, which I believe is before the symptoms even become severe enough to be visible. This means that crew and passengers can be spreading the virus without even knowing it.

 

I still believe the crew is part of the solution and not the problem.

 

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned public restrooms. Another deterrence to Noro is to avoid public restrooms. Take the journey back to your cabin and use your own restroom, even if it's an inconvenience.

 

The "season" of noro is between November and April. This is when the vast majority of outbreaks happen. It's difficult to see a trend with Noro. It seems to strike any cruise line, although there have been zero Noro outbreaks on Carnival Cruise Line the past three years. Statistically they should be #1 with the largest fleet and largest numbers of passengers carried. Obviously they are doing something right, or it's the demographics of passengers they carry. Perhaps younger people are less likely to contract or spread Noro. That I don't know but I find it an interesting prospect.

 

I recently read where Carnival is testing a ventilation system on CARNIVAL CONQUEST that actually kills Noro virus. If true that could be a ground breaking development and something all cruise lines will rush to install.

[JVNYC]

While Norovirus is always around, it is seasonal, as shown by this graph from CDC:

IMO to paint the previous poster with the broad brush of "What a load of misinformation" is itself misinformation.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing the "seasonal" relevance of this chart. This just shows spikes in certain years....this doesn't reflect a seasonal chart. My apologies if I'm missing this.

[eroller]

In all the public washrooms on Riviera they have sensors to turn the water on and off. You will have to look elsewhere to find the problem.

 

Do the doors open and close automatically? Hate to tell you but not everyone washes their hands after using the restroom. If they then use their hands to open the restroom door there is the potential to spread the virus.

 

Carnival does something quite clever that is installed next to every restroom door. It is a small dispenser that dispenses a small square of paper. About the size of one square of toilet paper but a little thicker. You use it to open the door of the restroom so you don't have to touch the handle. Cunard actually keeps the restroom doors propped open in many cases. These are good deterrents to Noro and may help explain why Carnival has had zero cases in three years. The best deterrent is to go back to your cabin whenever you need to use the restroom.

[eroller]

Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing the "seasonal" relevance of this chart. This just shows spikes in certain years....this doesn't reflect a seasonal chart. My apologies if I'm missing this.

 

 

Go to the CDC website and search for Vessel Sanitation Program. You can see every major outbreak reported from 1994 onward. Ship and dates. The vast majority of outbreaks are between November and April.

[Travelcat2]

The chart in and of itself does not show its seasonality but the sentence above the chart (not shown in prior post) addresses it.

 

"You can get norovirus illness at any time during the year. But, it is most common in the winter. Also, there can be 50% more norovirus illness in years when there is a new strain of the virus going around."

 

Also, the following addresses deaths from Norovirus:

 

 

Norovirus-associated Deaths

 

link to larger image for Figure 1A. Data from 1999–2007 show the number of U.S. deaths for norovirus-related illness is consistently higher during winter months. Deaths from norovirus were highest in winter of 2002–2003 and 2006–2007 when a new norovirus strain emerged..

Edited February 23, 2016 by Travelcat2

[GeezerCouple]

I'm not sure I ever said the crew is completely innocent. They are humans after all and like all humans some will follow the rules and others will not. It is a fact that crew illness numbers in pretty much every Noro outbreak are much lower than those of passengers. Part of that is just because there is a lower percentage of crew onboard, but I would say the far more compelling reason is that the crew are trained in these matters and take the proper precautions each and every day (or at least most do). Passengers do not, and as we have seen pointed out in this thread can be very selfish and put others at risk even when they should be guaranteed. Also it's much more difficult for the crew to hide the symptoms and continue working. Having had Noro on Holland America I can say that working is pretty much impossible once the virus takes hold. The bathroom becomes your best friend. The other issue is the contagious period of Noro, which I believe is before the symptoms even become severe enough to be visible. This means that crew and passengers can be spreading the virus without even knowing it.

 

I still believe the crew is part of the solution and not the problem.

 

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned public restrooms. Another deterrence to Noro is to avoid public restrooms. Take the journey back to your cabin and use your own restroom, even if it's an inconvenience.

 

The "season" of noro is between November and April. This is when the vast majority of outbreaks happen. It's difficult to see a trend with Noro. It seems to strike any cruise line, although there have been zero Noro outbreaks on Carnival Cruise Line the past three years. Statistically they should be #1 with the largest fleet and largest numbers of passengers carried. Obviously they are doing something right, or it's the demographics of passengers they carry. Perhaps younger people are less likely to contract or spread Noro. That I don't know but I find it an interesting prospect.

 

I recently read where Carnival is testing a ventilation system on CARNIVAL CONQUEST that actually kills Noro virus. If true that could be a ground breaking development and something all cruise lines will rush to install.

 

Norovirus can remain on inert surfaces for some time.

Would Carnival really be spraying chemicals into the ventilation system (like fogging the ship) without telling passengers!?

That is frightening.

[TravelerThom]

Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing the "seasonal" relevance of this chart. This just shows spikes in certain years....this doesn't reflect a seasonal chart. My apologies if I'm missing this.

If you look at the time line, every transition from one year to the next (winter in the US) other than 2005-2006 shows a spike (it is showing deaths, but those correlate with total number of cases), and every summer (mid-year) shows a trough. That is seasonality IMO.

[eroller]

Norovirus can remain on inert surfaces for some time.

 

Would Carnival really be spraying chemicals into the ventilation system (like fogging the ship) without telling passengers!?

 

That is frightening.

 

 

You are making assumptions. First I have no confirmation if they truly are testing such a system although I have read they are. Second I have no understanding how such a ventilation system would work. I would hazard a guess and say if such a system is being tested, it would be in no way harmful to the people onboard. I understand similar systems are being looked at for schools and hospitals. Perhaps instead of harmful chemicals it uses infrared technology to kill the virus?

[Travelcat2]

If you look at the time line, every transition from one year to the next (winter in the US) other than 2005-2006 shows a spike (it is showing deaths, but those correlate with total number of cases), and every summer (mid-year) shows a trough. That is seasonality IMO.

 

Sorry - even I didn't notice that (wasn't wearing my reading glasses):o Really a great chart!

[HeatherInFlorida]

Right now on the Riviera all the doors to all the public washrooms are open all the time.

[eroller]

Right now on the Riviera all the doors to all the public washrooms are open all the time.

 

 

Smart. This is what Cunard does almost all the time. Luckily the restrooms are designed in a way you really can't see inside them with the door open.

[GeezerCouple]

You are making assumptions. First I have no confirmation if they truly are testing such a system although I have read they are. Second I have no understanding how such a ventilation system would work. I would hazard a guess and say if such a system is being tested, it would be in no way harmful to the people onboard. I understand similar systems are being looked at for schools and hospitals. Perhaps instead of harmful chemicals it uses infrared technology to kill the virus?

 

I'm not making any assumptions, other than the known fact that noro can remain on inert surfaces for some time.

 

Someone else stated that a ventilation system was being tested.

 

You are suggesting that infrared (I thought it was ultraviolet, not infrared, but that's not the point) is being aimed *everywhere* and not just within a ventilation system...?

 

Those systems are indeed used within hospitals, but I've never seen them in patient rooms (not yet, anyway), for example.

There ARE hospital systems that do sanitize a complete room, but only after the patient has left, not while someone is still using the room.

And I have no idea what bacteria/viruses/pathogens are susceptible to which techniques.

 

But I still don't see how any ventilation-based system will "clean" surfaces, without also "treating" the passengers.

 

Others have already mentioned the "fogging" that took place, and how the crew were wearing masks, etc.

But that's also not going to be ultraviolet; fogging is with chemicals.

[JVNYC]

If you look at the time line, every transition from one year to the next (winter in the US) other than 2005-2006 shows a spike (it is showing deaths, but those correlate with total number of cases), and every summer (mid-year) shows a trough. That is seasonality IMO.

 

 

Ah, ok....I'm with you now! :) Thanks Thom.

[RJB]

Right now on the Riviera all the doors to all the public washrooms are open all the time.

Yes, and they were open for just about the entire last cruise.

[rallydave]

A further piece of information regarding the chart is that it is for the Northern Hemisphere. Would expect a chart for the Southern Hemisphere to show peaking in December, January and February, simply move the plot 6 months left or right.

 

As many cruises which is what we are discussing travel the world including both Northern and Southern Hemispheres this makes the Noro applicable for most of the full year.

 

Not much different than people who try to avoid children on their cruises by not booking cruises during the Northern Hemisphere June-August summer break and are surprised to find children on board December-February as those are the summer holidays in the Southern Hemisphere. Makes it difficult to avoid the virus as well as children throughout most of the year.

[eroller]

I'm not making any assumptions, other than the known fact that noro can remain on inert surfaces for some time.

 

Someone else stated that a ventilation system was being tested.

 

You are suggesting that infrared (I thought it was ultraviolet, not infrared, but that's not the point) is being aimed *everywhere* and not just within a ventilation system...?

 

Those systems are indeed used within hospitals, but I've never seen them in patient rooms (not yet, anyway), for example.

There ARE hospital systems that do sanitize a complete room, but only after the patient has left, not while someone is still using the room.

And I have no idea what bacteria/viruses/pathogens are susceptible to which techniques.

 

But I still don't see how any ventilation-based system will "clean" surfaces, without also "treating" the passengers.

 

Others have already mentioned the "fogging" that took place, and how the crew were wearing masks, etc.

But that's also not going to be ultraviolet; fogging is with chemicals.

 

 

I'm the one that mentioned that I read a ventilation system was being tested on Carnival. We all read a lot of things obviously. Until Carnival actually confirms it I have no idea if it is true or not.

 

I also have no idea what new technology is available. New technology is being tested all the time, and this ventilation system is likely to use a technology that is new and innovative. Unless you are an engineer or in the field of combating viruses, I'm guessing you don't know what new technology might be available either. I also don't profess to know how this would work. I could see an airborne virus, but Noro can live on surfaces so I'm not sure how a ventilation system could combat that? But I'm not up on the latest developments to combat Noro so I'm keeping an open mind.

 

I do know that Carnival and every other cruise line is not in the business of putting their passengers and crew at risk. Safety is their primary concern. If they are testing something new, I'm pretty confident it's not going to put anyone at risk.

Edited February 23, 2016 by eroller

[Host Jazzbeau]

I'm the one that mentioned that I read a ventilation system was being tested on Carnival.

 

You may have read it here:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2318663

[LHT28]

"You can get norovirus illness at any time during the year. But, it is most common in the winter. Also, there can be 50% more norovirus illness in years when there is a new strain of the virus going around."

 

So your statement saying

"Norovirus season should be over in April (according to what I've been reading)."

 

IS misleading according to your above quote

It does not suddenly disappear in the Spring

 

http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/trends-outbreaks.html

[Toranut97]

Do the doors open and close automatically? Hate to tell you but not everyone washes their hands after using the restroom. If they then use their hands to open the restroom door there is the potential to spread the virus.

 

 

 

Carnival does something quite clever that is installed next to every restroom door. It is a small dispenser that dispenses a small square of paper. About the size of one square of toilet paper but a little thicker. You use it to open the door of the restroom so you don't have to touch the handle. Cunard actually keeps the restroom doors propped open in many cases. These are good deterrents to Noro and may help explain why Carnival has had zero cases in three years. The best deterrent is to go back to your cabin whenever you need to use the restroom.

 

 

Riviera has the same paper dispensers at least in the ladies rooms with a little sign urging folks to use one to open the door when leaving. With a trash receptacle under it. No excuse for using bare hands on the door handle when leaving.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nancygp]

 

Carnival does something quite clever that is installed next to every restroom door. It is a small dispenser that dispenses a small square of paper. About the size of one square of toilet paper but a little thicker. You use it to open the door of the restroom so you don't have to touch the handle. Cunard actually keeps the restroom doors propped open in many cases. These are good deterrents to Noro and may help explain why Carnival has had zero cases in three years. The best deterrent is to go back to your cabin whenever you need to use the restroom.

 

Crystal has been doing this for years, providing a small dispenser next to the restroom door. They even have a note on it suggestion one use them.

 

Nancy

Edited February 23, 2016 by nancygp

[eroller]

Riviera has the same paper dispensers at least in the ladies rooms with a little sign urging folks to use one to open the door when leaving. With a trash receptacle under it. No excuse for using bare hands on the door handle when leaving.

 

 

 

 

 

Good to hear!

[LHT28]

On Marina in May they had small gel dispensers on the wall outside the washroom doors near the GDR maybe other W/C's as well

 

Hard not keep your hands clean unless you choose not to

 

I go to my cabin so no idea what is on the inside of the W/C

[Travelcat2]

So your statement saying

"Norovirus season should be over in April (according to what I've been reading)."

 

IS misleading according to your above quote

It does not suddenly disappear in the Spring

 

http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/trends-outbreaks.html

 

I stand by my statement and the link you provided (which is one of the places where I obtained my information) indicates the same thing. I did not say that it "will" be over in April -- just that it "should". Just like with the common cold, some people do get spring or summer colds but the numbers are far fewer.

 

You are certainly entitled to feel that my post was misleading but I believe that most people reading this thread understood my point. I was responding to a person that is concerned about sailing in April. IMO, it was more accurate to let the poster know that the likelihood of Norovirus on ships will diminish by then than to think that the risk is the same as it currently is.

 

BTW, this is on the link you posted which, once again, supports the seasonality of Norovirus: Norovirus can spread quickly in closed places like daycare centers, nursing homes, schools, and cruise ships. Most norovirus outbreaks happen from November to April in the United States.