Noticing increasing number of "Service" animals!!!

[CapeCodCruiser]

The easiest thing would be for Congress to redefine some terms in the law, but that's not likely to happen before I reach my bazillionth birthday.

 

You did not just use "easiest" and "Congress" in the same sentence!

 

Now that's funny!

[sparks1093]

You did not just use "easiest" and "Congress" in the same sentence!

 

Now that's funny!

 

I assure you it was most difficult to maintain a straight face as I wrote that.

[whogo]

While business's hands are tied, there is nothing to keep others from challenging pet owners. Others are free to ask about the "support" animal and the "disability" and to give their opinion of any ill-mannered beasts and their pets.

[NLH Arizona]

While business's hands are tied, there is nothing to keep others from challenging pet owners. Others are free to ask about the "support" animal and the "disability" and to give their opinion of any ill-mannered beasts and their pets.

I wouldn't confront a pet owner, but what I will do is talk with the manager of the establishment and encourage him or her to look at the ADA rules and regulations and let them know that the behavior of the dog is reason to tell the customer to take the dog out, as there are certain things, like a dog being under the control of the owner, etc., that have to be followed.

[CPT Trips]

The easiest thing would be for Congress to redefine some terms in the law, but that's not likely to happen before I reach my bazillionth birthday.

 

What terms would you redefine? What new definitions?

 

I wouldn't confront a pet owner, but what I will do is talk with the manager of the establishment and encourage him or her to look at the ADA rules and regulations and let them know that the behavior of the dog is reason to tell the customer to take the dog out, as there are certain things, like a dog being under the control of the owner, etc., that have to be followed.

 

 

I saw this comment on a Disney disability board thread. I think it's on target (pun?) about what businesses should do. Just a note, the questions the ADA permits are:

- is the dog required because of a disability?

- what tasks is it trained to do?

 

and, there are places that will ask every single time, just so they can't be accused of discrimination.

 

Every time we have been to Walmart, the greeter has asked:

Are you disabled?

Is this your service dog?

 

My daughter can't speak, so I answer for her. She is sitting in her wheelchair, with her very mellow, well behaved and handsome black British Lab beside her. He is wearing a bright red Service Dog vest.

I think it's pretty funny, because the answers to the questions are pretty obvious. It's probably the same deal as the places that ask to see proof of age for everyone buying alcohol.

 

The biggest issue I can see is that businesses need to be educated about their rights and then follow thru.

Even if the person says their dog is a Service Animal, the ADA allows businesses to deny access to the dog if it is not potty trained, is misbehaving, out of control or causing a disturbance and the owner does not take effective action to control it. If businesses actually followed thru on that, most of the misbehaving pretend 'service dogs' would be out the door.

[Elaine5715]

What terms would you redefine? What new definitions?

 

 

 

I saw this comment on a Disney disability board thread. I think it's on target (pun?) about what businesses should do. Just a note, the questions the ADA permits are:

- is the dog required because of a disability?

- what tasks is it trained to do?

 

Yes, these questions are permitted. Unfortunately, a common response is "none of your darn gum business" Since employees know a confrontation with a guest does not work out well for them, they let the bad guest go, which in turn, empowers the bad guest the next time.

[JustCruiseMe]

I've seen at least two on every cruise in the last few years. I heartily agree that real service dogs should be welcomed and accommodated and it made me so pleased to see one on our last transatlantic cruise (a service dog for a blind woman). The ship even blocked off the bow promenade area to set up the "facilities" for the three dogs.

 

The other two dogs were "foo foo" dogs in strollers. They had various outfits. One time, I witnessed the "diabetes alert dog" being given licks of an ice cream cone that the supposedly diabetic person was eating while sitting in the Windjammer. I'm pretty sure the dog should have been trained to nip at the "diabetic" person's hand if they reached for a sugary dessert...

 

My objection are the passengers who make a big deal over these faux service dogs and want to pet them and get the scoop from the owners on what the dogs are trained to do. Folks, you are just encouraging deceit!

Actually I am pretty sure I know who you are talking about they are true diabetic dogs. Dogs don't have to be big to be effective. Their noses work fine. John Heald wrote about these dogs and have proof that they are working dogs. They can alert when the man's blood sugar is dropping. Evidently there is a scent that is given off. So be careful to criticize.

[JustCruiseMe]

Actually I am pretty sure I know who you are talking about they are true diabetic dogs. Dogs don't have to be big to be effective. Their noses work fine. John Heald wrote about these dogs and have proof that they are working dogs. They can alert when the man's blood sugar is dropping. Evidently there is a scent that is given off. So be careful to criticize.

 

Perhaps that persons blood sugar was dropping and that was the dogs reward...you just don't know.

[BeagleOne]

There is no reason at all that service dogs can't be registered during the local licencing session with verification from a vet.

 

I'm a vet. It's not up to me to determine whether a dog is a true service dog. I can attest to the dog's health and temperament. I can't attest as to whether the dog is necessary to assist a person with a disability. That's for a professional in human medicine.

[Ex techie]

Perhaps that persons blood sugar was dropping and that was the dogs reward...you just don't know.

 

Perhaps. But unless you did not read the previous comments, service dogs are not trained to beg or receive food in that kind of circumstance. Being fed an ice cream on someones lap is not as per ADA guidelines.

Ice cream is not a treat for a dog either.

Animals should not be fed human foods. Foods such as dairy and chocolate can be very upsetting to the dogs bowel movements or worse.

 

While we don't know about that specific dog, it was not being treated within the ADA guidelines for a service animal and the owner should not be behaving this way.

 

ex techie.

[CPT Trips]

Perhaps. But unless you did not read the previous comments, service dogs are not trained to beg or receive food in that kind of circumstance. Being fed an ice cream on someones lap is not as per ADA guidelines.

Ice cream is not a treat for a dog either.

Animals should not be fed human foods. Foods such as dairy and chocolate can be very upsetting to the dogs bowel movements or worse.

 

While we don't know about that specific dog, it was not being treated within the ADA guidelines for a service animal and the owner should not be behaving this way.

 

ex techie.

 

ADA guidelines say nothing of the sort. AFAIK, posters' comments about service dog behavior, training, and how they work is accurate. But, it isn't ADA.

 

Basically ADA defines a service dog and says the service dog can, under the intros of its handler, accompany the disabled person just about anywhere. https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

Edited August 10, 2016 by CPT Trips

[sparks1093]

ADA guidelines say nothing of the sort. AFAIK, posters' comments about service dog behavior, training, and how they work is accurate. But, it isn't ADA.

 

Basically ADA defines a service dog and says the service dog can, under the intros of its handler, accompany the disabled person just about anywhere. https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

 

I take back my comment regarding Congressional action, that FAQ seems to cover everything.

[chengkp75]

ADA guidelines say nothing of the sort. AFAIK, posters' comments about service dog behavior, training, and how they work is accurate. But, it isn't ADA.

 

Basically ADA defines a service dog and says the service dog can, under the intros of its handler, accompany the disabled person just about anywhere. https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

 

While I have used this FAQ over the years for lots of guidance, since most are procedural, they enter the gray area where the ADA is not applicable to cruise ships.

 

I take back my comment regarding Congressional action, that FAQ seems to cover everything.

 

Sparks, you are in agreement with the Supreme Court that required Congressional action in order for the ADA to apply fully to foreign flag cruise ships.

 

What is really needed is a statement from CLIA outlining the requirements for bringing service animals onboard, and a "guest animal code of conduct" similar to what is currently in the ticket contract. Because of Spector v. NCL, the cruise lines can essentially set any requirements for documentation and behavior that they want, they just cannot blanket disallow service animals.

[JustCruiseMe]

I will never forget the shivering, shaking chihuahua in the front of a grocery cart, wearing a vest that said "emotional support dog".

 

That quivering is a chihuahua characteristic and has nothing to do with being cold or scared and wouldn't keep them from being an emotion support animal. I actually OWN a legitimate emotional support BIRD!

[CPT Trips]

While I have used this FAQ over the years for lots of guidance, since most are procedural, they enter the gray area where the ADA is not applicable to cruise ships.

 

 

 

Sparks, you are in agreement with the Supreme Court that required Congressional action in order for the ADA to apply fully to foreign flag cruise ships.

 

What is really needed is a statement from CLIA outlining the requirements for bringing service animals onboard, and a "guest animal code of conduct" similar to what is currently in the ticket contract. Because of Spector v. NCL, the cruise lines can essentially set any requirements for documentation and behavior that they want, they just cannot blanket disallow service animals.

 

Bolding mine. That could clarify things.

 

The FAQ is pertinent to this thread because it says next to nothing about How the dog is trained or how/when the dog is fed and just requires it to be housebroken. Those issues are the practical expectations of the training entities.

Edited August 10, 2016 by CPT Trips

[SeagoingMom]

I know if I see any of these behaviors that are against health codes; such as, sitting on a table, pooping in pubic, etc., I hope I have my phone with me, because I will take a picture and send it not only to the cruise line, but to the health department in the first US port of call.

Well, there certainly should be a law against THAT, anyway! :eek:

[k9x8]

I don't think verification from the vet is the right way to go about it, I think it should be from a medical professional, just like handicap placards/plates are.

 

Problem is, it's not all that difficult to find a doctor who will write up your need for an "emotional support" animal. If you're not friends with your doctor, you can go online and be evaluated by a doctor or therapist. (kind of like some of those hunky online pharmacies.)

 

We get calls from people wanting to know how to certify their dogs. "I have a letter from my doctor." I tell them to call the NC Department of Vocational Rehab. My favorite was the woman who wanted to train her 4mo old chihuahua to be a purse dog, because she got soooo stressed leaving home without it.

 

I tell my husband we should quit working for a living, and go into the online certification business. We could hold the occasional training class, and teach people how to avoid detection. For example, letting your dog run at the end of a retractable lead is a dead giveaway.

[k9x8]

Answers in RED

 

It is not insurmountable, or really a challenging thing to set up.

The major challenge is getting all states to work together and agree a system.

 

ex techie

 

I can't quote your answers.

Certification of trainers is as dodgy as certification of dogs. If a trainer says I'm certified by the K9 Traing School, all that means is the school gave them a certificate. If you dig deep, and I have, you'll find how meaningless those claims are.

 

Our K9 officer teams, on the other hand, must be certified by select evaluators. Our local teams go to PA for testing. It doesn't matter who trained the dog.

 

What we need to change is the fear of confronting the obvious scammers.

[chengkp75]

 

What we need to change is the fear of confronting the obvious scammers.

 

Bingo. And like I said, what is needed is for CLIA to stand up and say, enough is enough, and here are our guidelines. Since I seriously doubt that Congress will revisit the ADA as the Supreme Court requires, there would only be one court challenge to CLIA issuing a set of rules of conduct, but the cruise lines don't want to spend money on litigation, so around and around we will continue to go.

[Ex techie]

ADA guidelines say nothing of the sort. AFAIK, posters' comments about service dog behavior, training, and how they work is accurate. But, it isn't ADA.

 

Basically ADA defines a service dog and says the service dog can, under the intros of its handler, accompany the disabled person just about anywhere. https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

 

Ok, thanks for correcting me.

 

ex techie

[Ex techie]

I can't quote your answers.

Certification of trainers is as dodgy as certification of dogs. If a trainer says I'm certified by the K9 Traing School, all that means is the school gave them a certificate. If you dig deep, and I have, you'll find how meaningless those claims are.

 

Our K9 officer teams, on the other hand, must be certified by select evaluators. Our local teams go to PA for testing. It doesn't matter who trained the dog.

 

What we need to change is the fear of confronting the obvious scammers.

 

That is why I said it would need to be set up by the DOJ, and monitored.

 

I absolutely agree about changing the fear of confronting the obvious scammers.

I also said in a mother post about collecting video evidence of the animals misbehaving and acting inappropriately so that if it does go to court, then it is undeniable and not hearsay.

 

But as Chief said, unless the CLIA do something for cruise ships, nothing will change there.

 

ex techie

[navybankerteacher]

That quivering is a chihuahua characteristic and has nothing to do with being cold or scared and wouldn't keep them from being an emotion support animal. I actually OWN a legitimate emotional support BIRD!

 

And I am in almost continual contact with my emotional support wife. I wonder if it is fair that I must pay a full fare for her if you would not have to do the same for your condor (or whatever).

[manmtnmike]

Check this out...Anyone else curious about how exotic these ESA will become?:) Me I'm going for the monkey!!

 

http://blog.ncpad.org/2010/12/13/6-of-the-most-unusual-service-animals/

[Elaine5715]

I'm a vet. It's not up to me to determine whether a dog is a true service dog. I can attest to the dog's health and temperament. I can't attest as to whether the dog is necessary to assist a person with a disability. That's for a professional in human medicine.

 

I just have more faith in the credibility of a veterinarian that a human doctor.

[Bonnie J.]

When we adopted a dog from the Seeing Eye we were given a statement from them saying we adopted her and from whom. They had her tattoo, which was in her ear, listed so you'd know where she came from. All Seeing Eye dogs have a tattoo in their ear so they can always be identified. She was rejected because as they put it she was an "emotional piddler"- a foot pisser. She was in harness training and the only reward the Seeing Eye gives is praise- not food or toys- and she got excited then and piddled.

A Seeing Eye dog IS the eyes of a blind master and belongs anywhere their master wants to go!