Noticing increasing number of "Service" animals!!!

[Flatbush Flyer]

We're reading that differently, I cannot believe they won't allow a seeing guide dog onboard regardless of port of embarkation.

 

 

No - the policy really is NO animals of any ilk (or purpose) unless either the start or stop port is in the US. ADA is a very American thing that is both important and well-meaning though often a blessing or a curse based solely on the selfishness of some abusive citizens.

Remember too that a very gray area in ADA is "reasonable accommodation." The nature of ocean going vessels with SOLAS requirements and infrastructure challenges could easily be interpreted as challenging the introduction of reasonable accommodations (like service dogs). "Gray area" invites litigation in the US. That's why the service animal exception for US start/end port(s).

[MommaBear55]

I have seen the infamous non service service dog on board one cruise that I took. It was obvious by the lack of training the dog had, as it was a jumper and ate from the table. It was also seen in different people's care at different times, and not just a dash to the potty box.

 

I wonder if these people go through all the hoops it takes with special vet exams, making sure all the vaccines are up to date and doing (and paying for) all the extra paperwork it takes to be able to go off ship in different countries. Or perhaps they just stay on board at every port.

Edited August 6, 2016 by MommaBear55

[SadieN]

A huge thread, part 2

Cruising With A Service Dog....everything You Ever Wanted To Know!

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=585728

 

"Wow, is that an Ocelot in the elevator?" (Oosterdam, 11/2/09) :)

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1094186

Edited August 6, 2016 by SadieN

[xxoocruiser]

If I read this correctly I should have no problem getting my dog on the Vista next year. Not that I plan to While we will miss him dearly. It is not fair for him to be put the hassle what would have to go through to get to the ship as well as the time on the ship.

 

That's not necessary a correct assumption. Though the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) allows for Service Animal owners to be taken at their word it's done so only if it's obvious that the animal is a service animal. Additionally the ship has to be embarking from a USA Port and at that it's questionable as to the extent that ADA applies as explained by ChengKP75 post 24. If it's not obvious than the public entity ( in this case the cruise line) is allowed to ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been trained to perform.

 

If the ship embarks from a USA port and if it can be proven that the individual gave false attestation as to the need of the animal as a service animal than animal as well as the passenger can be removed. The problem lies with the fact that the burden of proof falls to the cruise line and it best be 100% certain false attestation was provided by the passenger prior to removal.

 

On a side note this message is to Chengkp75. One of these days I hope our paths cross as we seem to always be alliegned in our understanding of how ADA applies or not applies to foreign Flagged ships.

Edited August 6, 2016 by xxoocruiser

[CPT Trips]

No - the policy really is NO animals of any ilk (or purpose) unless either the start or stop port is in the US. ADA is a very American thing that is both important and well-meaning though often a blessing or a curse based solely on the selfishness of some abusive citizens.

Remember too that a very gray area in ADA is "reasonable accommodation." The nature of ocean going vessels with SOLAS requirements and infrastructure challenges could easily be interpreted as challenging the introduction of reasonable accommodations (like service dogs). "Gray area" invites litigation in the US. That's why the service animal exception for US start/end port(s).

 

It's difficult to imagine that a modern cruise hip cannot make "reasonable accommodation" for a service dog. Not much is necessary. Meeting ADA accessibility standards while maintaining SOLAS compliance is quite another story.

 

I would rather but up with the BS of the few selfish narcissists that might abuse ADA accommodations than see people with disabilities suffer discrimination in our society. That said, I wish cruise line hotel directors have the stones to deal appropriately with the obvious abuse by some pet owning pax.

 

ETA- if the service dog is uncontrolled, growls, snarls, exhibits aggression, or has accidents, a business can deny access. "Emotional support" or "therapy" animals are not protected under ADA.

Edited August 6, 2016 by CPT Trips

[chengkp75]

It's difficult to imagine that a modern cruise hip cannot make "reasonable accommodation" for a service dog. Not much is necessary. Meeting ADA accessibility standards while maintaining SOLAS compliance is quite another story.

 

I would rather but up with the BS of the few selfish narcissists that might abuse ADA accommodations than see people with disabilities suffer discrimination in our society. That said, I wish cruise line hotel directors have the stones to deal appropriately with the obvious abuse by some pet owning pax.

 

ETA- if the service dog is uncontrolled, growls, snarls, exhibits aggression, or has accidents, a business can deny access. "Emotional support" or "therapy" animals are not protected under ADA.

 

The problem is, that unless the ship embarks or disembarks in the US, its not our society. Similar to Oceania's policy on service animals, Viking Ocean has a policy of no mobility scooters. This is one of the largest areas where people do not understand that foreign flag ships do not have to meet all US laws, and the protections one has as a US citizen do not extend outside our borders.

[SurferJoe57]

Find the New Yorker article by Patricia Marx, "Pet's Allowed." Hilarious but yes, a growing narcissistic trend as noted in this thread.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Krazy Kruizers]

I saw service dogs for blind on the ships only twice. Even though I am not a pet person, I admired those well-behaved helpers.

 

I take a bus to/from work every day, and often on weekends. Most often it would be a canine or feline companion of a mentally sick person, if a pet is on the bus. Haven't seen this kind on ships.

 

I would rather err and allow "fake" service pets on the ship than to keep somebody at home.

 

 

On one of our HAL cruises we had a blind person and he had his service dog with -- complete with appropriate jacket.

Wish I had thought to take a picture of him. Beautiful Lab.

[cbr663]

The legal requirement of not having to disclose the nature of the disability has nothing to do with not wanting to embarrass or to offend anyone. It is to protect the person from discrimination on the basis of the disability. Lots of service providers have a bias toward certain illnesses and disabilities that become apparent once that illness is made public. This is especially so, for instance, of people who live with mental illness.

 

Not having to disclose the nature of the disability provides a demonstrated level of protection to those living with disabilities.

[xxoocruiser]

On one of our HAL cruises we had a blind person and he had his service dog with -- complete with appropriate jacket.

Wish I had thought to take a picture of him. Beautiful Lab.

 

It's a reasonable assumption that the dog was actually a service dog being that the individual was blind and not by the fact the dog was wearing what you assessed to be the "appropriate jacket".

 

FYI in the USA Vests, Jackets or other identifying gear is not required to be worn by a service animal. While it's recommended that every team is clearly identified, USA Federal law is very specific about not requiring vests, jackets or other forms of identification. Many disabled individuals who use Service Dogs choose not to provide a vest for their dog because they don’t want to be labeled as disabled. They believe that a vest is like being emblazoned with a Scarlett Letter.

[maldenmusic]

I've seen one seeing eye dog on all my cruises

[6boysnana]

The problem isn't the hard working service animals that open the world for their owners it's the same people that think they have to take their mutt to the grocery store.

I am dismayed by seeing dogs in carts barking and snapping at me and seeing a dog in the produce lifting his leg on a box of produce.

I don't want to see a fluffy in a stroller or wearing his cruise outfits. I don't want to hear barking on a cruise.

I have a pet and if I can't find care for her I don't go. I hope we can get control of this situation.

I did comment to the leg lifter mutt owner and she said it was ok because the the dog was a comfort animal! I also told the store manager and the produce staff. Comfort animal!

 

6boysnana

[Ashland]

Does it need to be disclosed when a service pet has occupied your cabin on a previous cruise ? What about those (cruiser's) that might have an allergy ?

[sparks1093]

No - the policy really is NO animals of any ilk (or purpose) unless either the start or stop port is in the US. ADA is a very American thing that is both important and well-meaning though often a blessing or a curse based solely on the selfishness of some abusive citizens.

Remember too that a very gray area in ADA is "reasonable accommodation." The nature of ocean going vessels with SOLAS requirements and infrastructure challenges could easily be interpreted as challenging the introduction of reasonable accommodations (like service dogs). "Gray area" invites litigation in the US. That's why the service animal exception for US start/end port(s).

 

That's fine, but in the first line of the policy it specifically says "except for certain necessary service animals of a disabled Guest" which leads me to conclude that a bona fide seeing guide dog for a blind person would be allowed.

[CPT Trips]

The problem is, that unless the ship embarks or disembarks in the US, its not our society. Similar to Oceania's policy on service animals, Viking Ocean has a policy of no mobility scooters. This is one of the largest areas where people do not understand that foreign flag ships do not have to meet all US laws, and the protections one has as a US citizen do not extend outside our borders.

 

I was responding to another poster's comment about the challenges of accommodating a service dog on a ship. As a practical matter, it really isn't difficult.

 

Obviously the first "A" in ADA is Americans and that does limit the scope of the law. It seems equally obvious that vessels flagged in other countries and not sailing from US ports are outside its scope. Some travelers/cruisers don't get the obvious.

[Elaine5715]

How do you know it wasn't sugar-free ice cream? :)

 

I wonder if we're overly conditioned to think that dogs assisting with disability are all like guide dogs - big, business-like and on duty most of the time in public. The general public doesn't seem to take small dogs with less frequent duties seriously. I suppose there's no reason why a diabetes alert dog can't wear frou-frou ribbons or share a snack with his owner. Hopefully that dog only has to do his job every once in a while. I can see why the cruiselines feel that they have to take a passenger's word for it.

 

Working service dogs are NEVER fed when on duty. It is the red flag that identifies a fraudulent service dog.

[Ex techie]

I was responding to another poster's comment about the challenges of accommodating a service dog on a ship. As a practical matter, it really isn't difficult.

 

Obviously the first "A" in ADA is Americans and that does limit the scope of the law. It seems equally obvious that vessels flagged in other countries and not sailing from US ports are outside its scope. Some travelers/cruisers don't get the obvious.

 

The part of the court case is that cruise ships from US ports regardless of flag status are required to "make reasonable accommodation and changes that do not affect the operation of ship services" to paraphrase.

 

So they do have to follow reasonable ADA set guidelines.

The problem is it does not define the use of the word "reasonable".

That is left open to interpretation, and because of the staunch I have rights people, the fear of litigation for admonishing someone with a clear violation of the definition of a service animal is too large that it is easier to let it go or weather the impending sh*t storm of outcry from them or organizations (which I think are mostly too vocal) in defense of that persons "rights".

 

The ADA legislation was made with great and good intentions, however it was made with so many flaws and loopholes that it is laughable because it allows people to easily exploit its purpose and demean the facilities and access it provided to those that need it, for which it was intended.

 

Now which government will stand up and say this is not OK, and put it back on the table for debate and reform?

One that will never be elected. The gate was left open and the horse has bolted from the stables.

 

ex techie

Edited August 7, 2016 by Ex techie

[GUT2407]

I read about this a lot, but only recall one that I thought, nope no way a service animal.

 

And when wife and I tried to engage the lady in conversation about the dog (we have been engaged in the pedigree dog world for over 30 years and are true dog lovers) she was, to say the least defensive about the dog and what it did.

[CPT Trips]

The ADA regulations for public accommodations do define "readily achievable." It just dawned on me that this is the term that applies to a cruise ship. "Reasonable accommodation" applies to employers and is also defined.

 

IIRC the case I think ex techie refers to held that cruise ships are subject to elements of ADA in certain circumstances.

 

.

[CapeCodCruiser]

Working service dogs are NEVER fed when on duty. It is the red flag that identifies a fraudulent service dog.

 

Except a dog that detects diabetic issues is always working as is a seizure alert animal

[GUT2407]

Except a dog that detects diabetic issues is always working as is a seizure alert animal

 

Also true of seizure alert dogs.

[navybankerteacher]

We're reading that differently, I cannot believe they won't allow a seeing guide dog onboard regardless of port of embarkation.

 

Nothing different to read - it just seems to indicate that ADA applies only when a ship embarks, disembarks or stops at a US port. By what stretch of imagination should a US statute apply to a ship which has no connection whatsoever with a US port?

[horseymike]

I love animals. I do not want to see all these pets in the grocery store when I am food shopping ect... Seeing eye dogs , no problem. Emotional support ???? different story. Saw a picture of a turkey on a delta flight...emotional support.

by the way I do not park in handicapped parking spots, they are a great thing for people who truly need them. If people would not trying to keep scamming the "system" things might be a little better for everyone.

[sparks1093]

Nothing different to read - it just seems to indicate that ADA applies only when a ship embarks, disembarks or stops at a US port. By what stretch of imagination should a US statute apply to a ship which has no connection whatsoever with a US port?

 

As I stated in my reply to Flatbush Flyer above the policy appears to not apply to dogs that are used for a disability, such as blindness, so I read it that no matter where in the world you embark if you use a seeing guide dog you would be allowed to sail Oceania. At least I really hope that Oceania doesn't prohibit seeing guide dogs on their ships.

[chengkp75]

As I stated in my reply to Flatbush Flyer above the policy appears to not apply to dogs that are used for a disability, such as blindness, so I read it that no matter where in the world you embark if you use a seeing guide dog you would be allowed to sail Oceania. At least I really hope that Oceania doesn't prohibit seeing guide dogs on their ships.

 

This can go back and forth forever, but I'll weigh in on navybankerteacher side here, sparks.

 

The way I read it is:

 

"No pets or other animals, except for certain necessary service animals of a disabled Guest, are allowed on board the Ship" meaning no pets at any time.

 

And:

 

"certain necessary service animals of a disabled Guest, are allowed on board the Ship, and only allowed when Cruise embarks, disembarks or stops at a United States port" meaning service animals are only allowed for US cruises.

 

Believe me, many countries do not have protections for disabled people who use service animals like we do in the US. Viking and other European river cruise lines do not allow guide dogs onboard.

 

I did a quick research of European access laws, here:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiw9MDnpa_OAhXJ6IMKHVFrA3gQFggpMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.egdfed.org%2Foutput%2F1%2Fimages%2Ffiles%2FGuide%2520Dogs%2520report%2520from%2520EPRS.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHfNYMhlagbmOdiLLaJdCX54zpe7A

 

and found, for example, that Austrian law:

 

"The federal law does however not contain any provisions on access rights for guide dogs."