Long-time Carnival Loyals try Royal—Oasis 2/4/18

[dmdiver]

Solarium on Oasis Class faces forward.

 

 

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot - the water theater is at the back. I guess I was confusing it with Enchantment's solarium. Anyway, it was a beautiful area!

[nutterbutter818]

Picking a cruise line definitely depends on the kind of trip I am taking. We do Carnival when value is more important to us and then we choose RCI or NCL when we want something a little more upscale. When we decide to get married, we will probably splurge and go NCL for our honeymoon(I like having a butler in the suites). I have always had good experiences while cruising but I tend to be more laid back and don't let the little things get to me. We are on the Freedom in May but RCI Serenade of the Seas next year out of Copenhagen. I love that we have so many options for cruising!

[CarolinaGirl2010]

Thanks for the great review. We normally cruise Carnival too, but I had wanted to cruise on Oasis since I saw it alongside the Carnival Dream. It was huge. We cruised her in December 2017 and loved her. I especially loved Central Park, and I loved seeing all the Christmas decorations.

[Joebucks]

Thanks for the great review. We normally cruise Carnival too, but I had wanted to cruise on Oasis since I saw it alongside the Carnival Dream. It was huge. We cruised her in December 2017 and loved her. I especially loved Central Park, and I loved seeing all the Christmas decorations.

 

Now that would cool to see during Christmas! I'll have to make note of that one. That sounds like a great memory.

 

I though the review of the ship was very good. I am excited to do an Oasis class cruise sooner than later. Regardless of which line you prefer, you are missing out if you never try (reasonably priced) competition. I'll admit, I gravitate towards Carnival every time. Carnival is definitely cheaper, and that's what initially got me in the door. Cheaper allows for me to take more and longer cruises. In the end, if I can vacation to nice ports, eat good food, have access to bars, comedy, hot tubs, pools, etc for longer than anything else for the same price, it's tough to justify that I need more shopping, restaurants, bigger venues, etc.

 

Carnival is also getting into the mega ship game in two years which will be interesting. I fear for these ports. Imagine you go to one that has multiple mega ships at it. Ugh.

[jimbo5544]

When we were on the Allure four years ago, I went up to the buffet at dinner to just see what they had and they had...t bone steaks!

 

Never saw that on CCL!

 

I was able to have grilled mushroooms, properly cooked turkey bacon on rcl. I liked the vita water that’s free, the roast beef sandwiches, Starbucks , and better mdr food.

 

Two years ago, they had salad with king crab legs; our waiter fetched us extra legs.

 

CCL has better seafood? Really? Never seen a crab leg in the mdr.

 

Only thing better on CCL was the steak house.

 

Entertainment was incredible- don’t miss the parades, ice show, plus on pool days, you really can get a lounger next to the pool. The ship spreads everyone out so it doesn’t feel crowded.

 

If you have sailed RCL but not on one of their oasis type ships, then you are missing out on their best ships.

 

 

 

I have sailed on both an older ship and Oasis and was frankly not wowed.

 

 

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[meatloafsfan]

We were also surprised at the food. We've heard nothing but how RCCL's food is so much better than Carnival's when in our experience, it was not. Some was better, some was worse. The drinks did seem less sugary which was nice since some of Carnival's are just too sweet and fake tasting (they've gotten much better over the last few years though too). The fun ship vibe was definitely missing; there wasn't even music at the pool when we got on the ship which we though was weird. That could vary on itinerary/ship as well too.

 

All in all, we'd give Royal another go if the price was right but we didn't see the experience as being worth more.

 

I prefer Carnival's food over Royals. But I put that down to not being a "meat and potatoes" person. My dad who literally orders, shrimp cocktail appetizer, steak entrée and cake dessert, likes Royal's food. I prefer to order more unique dishes (or stuff that's different) and I have had more misses than hits on Royal and more hits than misses on Carnival.

 

We sail Royal when it's cheaper than Carnival - The Voyager and Freedom class have a few interior accessible cabins that sleeps 3 and they can often be a good deal for us. I don't go in with great expectations - just that it's a cheap getaway.

 

When I want a cheap getaway, I go with Royal;

When I really need a fun vacation, I go with Carnival;

When I want quiet, good food and coffee, I go with Celebrity;

When I want something special (Like Star Wars or Marvel) I go with Disney;

And when I find a great deal, I go with Princess.

[bougiet]

Thanks for the review! Agree Royal is not always more. I often find prices just as good or better. Oasis class is an awesome experience, highly recommended over Vista class.

 

In all of my years of cruising I have NEVER found Royal to be cheaper than Carnival and I look all of the time. . It is NOT cheaper than carnival lol. Not even close.

 

Isn't this a Carnival Forum where we learn about Carnival?

[Djptcp]

Thanks so much for the review BooBooMonkey. DH and I have been on 44 cruises, including just one on RCCL a long time ago. 33rd on Carnival coming up next week on the Miracle. I have tried to book a RCCL cruise over the years, but have found them to be much more expensive than Carnival (we try to sail when school is in session, so not during holiday times, summer, etc.). I was surprised to read that others have found that not to be true for them. Oh well, our last 4 cruises since Nov., including the Miracle cruise next week, have either been free or deeply discounted as bounce back offers from the casino. Hard to pass them up. I have also received extremely discounted casino offers from Holland America which gave us Neptune Suites on four cruises. I was surprised that last night on our Jan. Carnival cruise that a woman with 29,000 points received the same bounce back offer that I did with 5000 points - hardly seemed fair to her. We like to sail from Tampa because we live just 45 minutes from the Port of Tampa and there is a RCCL ship that sails from there - maybe I'll try again to book one.

[mdin]

Very good review, thanks for sharing.

 

My wife and I have only been on 5 cruises, all with Carnival. Fortunately all of our cruises have been great and we've had no complaints, one of the main reasons we have continued to sail with Carnival.

 

We do plan to maybe someday sail with both NCL and RC, if not for anything else just to experience those lines. We've watched videos and seen pictures online and Royal Caribbean' s large ships are very impressive. I would definitely have a lot of fun on the flo-rider.

 

My one critic (and it may not be accurate since I haven't sailed them) from what I've seen seems that RC ships are the main attraction of the trip, while Carnival makes the sea the main attraction.

 

We both work in cities so we try to avoid the "city" atmosphere when on vacation. Also, not huge on malls, which RC seems to have an actual mall on the ship lol. Minor stuff that I'm 100% sure we can get over though

[BNBR]

Very good review, thanks for sharing.

 

My wife and I have only been on 5 cruises, all with Carnival. Fortunately all of our cruises have been great and we've had no complaints, one of the main reasons we have continued to sail with Carnival.

 

We do plan to maybe someday sail with both NCL and RC, if not for anything else just to experience those lines. We've watched videos and seen pictures online and Royal Caribbean' s large ships are very impressive. I would definitely have a lot of fun on the flo-rider.

 

My one critic (and it may not be accurate since I haven't sailed them) from what I've seen seems that RC ships are the main attraction of the trip, while Carnival makes the sea the main attraction.

 

We both work in cities so we try to avoid the "city" atmosphere when on vacation. Also, not huge on malls, which RC seems to have an actual mall on the ship lol. Minor stuff that I'm 100% sure we can get over though ��

 

The promenade doesn't feel like a mall to me any more than an atrium on the Carnival ships. It's just bigger and nicer with more venues.

[AmBear]

This isn't always true. I booked Allure for October this year and it was cheaper than Glory for a similar balcony cabin. Oasis is often cheaper than Allure. It's not true that Carnival is much cheaper than Royal anymore.

 

The drink packages on Royal, simple answer is "it depends" - which brings me back to the cruise fare also. Royal runs all sorts of different sales all the time that drastically change the prices. As I mentioned, Allure was cheaper than Glory, but I also picked up the ultimate beverage package for $48/day vs $51.95 or whatever Cheers cost... you just have to (annoyingly) watch for sales on all this stuff.

 

Glad you enjoyed Oasis. It seems you did a good job exploring, too. I love the casino on Oasis class because it feels like it's own venue, if that makes sense. It's part of the entertainment deck - jazz club, comedy, theater, casino, nightclub, ice theater, and it's all themed very well together. It's not thrown onto the promenade deck like other ship designs.

 

Not sure if you knew this, but Johnny Rockets is complimentary for breakfast - made to order diner stuff, and the Solarium Bistro is a great alternative to the Windjammer buffet.

 

Nah, Carnival is usually lower.

Just checked one of the largest cruise online booking sites, this is what they had,,,,balconies,,,,

Glory 10/6=$674. pp Allure 10/7=$896 pp,,,Glory is $122x2=$244 less!

Glory 10/13=$689. pp Allure 10/14=$847 pp,,,Glory is $158x2=$316 less!

Glory 10/20=$674 pp Allure 10/21=$829 pp,,,Glory is $155x2=$310 less!

Glory 10/27=$689 pp Allure 10/28=$722,,,Glory is $33x2=$66 less!

And don't forget those eastern Allure/Oasis are 3 port cruises, while the Glory is 4 port east and west!

Food, RCL is the worst, except for their extra pay rests. which are good!

Entertainment on the larger ships is where RCL shines, if you can get in, and as the reviewer stated, you aren't late cause you won't get in! The show rooms can't handle the HUGE numbers of passengers!

The mall area is just a shopping mall at sea during a sale, people everywhere, not my idea of a vacation!

[AmBear]

Solarium on Oasis Class faces forward.

 

 

 

Thank you for your report. 54 cruises across 7 lines and Oasis Class is still the class that has amazed me the most. :)

 

Agreed, amazed me why anyone would want to vacation on a floating shopping mall full of people!:D

[AmBear]

The promenade doesn't feel like a mall to me any more than an atrium on the Carnival ships. It's just bigger and nicer with more venues.

 

lolololol, its a shopping mall at sea!:D

[BNBR]

Nah, Carnival is usually lower.

Just checked one of the largest cruise online booking sites, this is what they had,,,,balconies,,,,

Glory 10/6=$674. pp Allure 10/7=$896 pp,,,Glory is $122x2=$244 less!

Glory 10/13=$689. pp Allure 10/14=$847 pp,,,Glory is $158x2=$316 less!

Glory 10/20=$674 pp Allure 10/21=$829 pp,,,Glory is $155x2=$310 less!

Glory 10/27=$689 pp Allure 10/28=$722,,,Glory is $33x2=$66 less!

And don't forget those eastern Allure/Oasis are 3 port cruises, while the Glory is 4 port east and west!

Food, RCL is the worst, except for their extra pay rests. which are good!

Entertainment on the larger ships is where RCL shines, if you can get in, and as the reviewer stated, you aren't late cause you won't get in! The show rooms can't handle the HUGE numbers of passengers!

The mall area is just a shopping mall at sea during a sale, people everywhere, not my idea of a vacation!

 

I clearly said it depends when you book with RCL as they run sales all the time. I have posted the side by side rates on CC for this exact sailing, I'm not going to go look for the screen grabs. Allure was cheaper than Glory when I booked. But again, as I said, "this isn't ALWAYS true"....

 

My Allure sailing is a 4 port western. You are wrong again. Your other mentions about the huge numbers for the shows and a shopping mall at sea are just kind of ridiculous and inaccurate. But whatever. I'd also take the Windjammer over the awful Lido buffet any day and Allure is much less crowded than Glory even with all those passengers.

 

That said, I like Carnival, too - and have a Carnival booking coming up.

 

For what it's worth, if I go to Carnivals site for the Glory 10/6 sailing, 4, balcony, with gratuities I get $2616.20. For Allure on the 7th, with gratuities, we paid $2449.56 plus we got a $225 credit and a sale on the drink packages making them cheaper than Cheers.

 

Anyways, I'm adding you to my ignore list. Post away.

Edited March 15, 2018 by BNBR

[arpie05]

This isn't always true. I booked Allure for October this year and it was cheaper than Glory for a similar balcony cabin. Oasis is often cheaper than Allure. It's not true that Carnival is much cheaper than Royal anymore.

 

The drink packages on Royal, simple answer is "it depends" - which brings me back to the cruise fare also. Royal runs all sorts of different sales all the time that drastically change the prices. As I mentioned, Allure was cheaper than Glory, but I also picked up the ultimate beverage package for $48/day vs $51.95 or whatever Cheers cost... you just have to (annoyingly) watch for sales on all this stuff.

.

 

Let's be honest please... The original poster was. I totally agree with the original poster about the shows and reservation system. Shows were really good but that's not my thing. I can go to those things at home and I choose not to. Also the reservations - too much. I do not think a newbie could handle. I think of all the things I don't know about a cruise - or have learned over the years - Royals is complicated - and there were things I missed doing on Royal...

SO Beverage package - you managed to get the Ultimate package $3 per day cheaper - BUT you neglect to include the fact that Royal it is actually $65 a day PLUS 18% while Carnival only charges 15% gratuity. Also - the daily per drink charge is much less on Royal vs Carnival ($13 vs $50) (I just looked Royal says the Deluxe costs between $$44 - $55 per guest, per night. The price will be higher if purchased onboard, usually around $65 per guest, per night.)

 

I do love the fact Royal offers the Refreshment package for $26 per day and everyone in the room does not have to purchase.

 

I did not like the buffet on Harmony but that's because it was up on deck like 15 or 16 which was WAY too high for me and way too much movement. I loved the shower in our room. The shower was the only thing spacious about the room. (and we were in a balcony room) A tall person would have trouble closing the bathroom door while sitting down because it was so close to the door.

 

We also had issues with our cabin steward. We didn't have good service (no soap to wash hands, shower missing soap dispenser but never given soap) I did not like how they split the work - they had One head steward and then he had his assistants. What amazed me is how they didn't even know all the stewards on their hallway (I was in a big group and needed to put something in another cabin)

 

And the Harmony has the worst spa I've ever been in. I would think it was a 20 year old ship and they added the feature where they could find some space. Because it was tiny! And the gym smelled like the casino which was one floor down (? or up).

[AmBear]

When we were on the Allure four years ago, I went up to the buffet at dinner to just see what they had and they had...t bone steaks!

Never saw that on CCL!

I was able to have grilled mushroooms, properly cooked turkey bacon on rcl. I liked the vita water that’s free, the roast beef sandwiches, Starbucks , and better mdr food.

Two years ago, they had salad with king crab legs; our waiter fetched us extra legs.

CCL has better seafood? Really? Never seen a crab leg in the mdr.

Only thing better on CCL was the steak house.

Entertainment was incredible- don’t miss the parades, ice show, plus on pool days, you really can get a lounger next to the pool. The ship spreads everyone out so it doesn’t feel crowded.

If you have sailed RCL but not on one of their oasis type ships, then you are missing out on their best ships.

 

Went to the buffet one night on a RCL cruise, and everything not a salad was Indian, and I don't mean American Indian!:D

[AmBear]

I clearly said it depends when you book with RCL as they run sales all the time. I have posted the side by side rates on CC for this exact sailing, I'm not going to go look for the screen grabs. Allure was cheaper than Glory when I booked. But again, as I said, "this isn't ALWAYS true"....

 

My Allure sailing is a 4 port western. You are wrong again. Your other mentions about the huge numbers for the shows and a shopping mall at sea are just kind of ridiculous and inaccurate. But whatever. I'd also take the Windjammer over the awful Lido buffet any day and Allure is much less crowded than Glory even with all those passengers.

 

That said, I like Carnival, too - and have a Carnival booking coming up.

 

For what it's worth, if I go to Carnivals site for the Glory 10/6 sailing, 4, balcony, with gratuities I get $2616.20. For Allure on the 7th, with gratuities, we paid $2449.56 plus we got a $225 credit and a sale on the drink packages making them cheaper than Cheers.

 

Anyways, I'm adding you to my ignore list. Post away.

 

Ignore list, wow, hurt!:D

BTW The Allure/and all Oasis sailing East visit only one port!

BTW those are the 4 in the same month you mentioned, so,,,,,,you got lucky! Good for you, but Carnival is almost always less!

And drink packages are almost always less on Carnival, so are drink prices!

[BNBR]

Let's be honest please... The original poster was. I totally agree with the original poster about the shows and reservation system. Shows were really good but that's not my thing. I can go to those things at home and I choose not to. Also the reservations - too much. I do not think a newbie could handle. I think of all the things I don't know about a cruise - or have learned over the years - Royals is complicated - and there were things I missed doing on Royal...

SO Beverage package - you managed to get the Ultimate package $3 per day cheaper - BUT you neglect to include the fact that Royal it is actually $65 a day PLUS 18% while Carnival only charges 15% gratuity. Also - the daily per drink charge is much less on Royal vs Carnival ($13 vs $50) (I just looked Royal says the Deluxe costs between $$44 - $55 per guest, per night. The price will be higher if purchased onboard, usually around $65 per guest, per night.)

 

I do love the fact Royal offers the Refreshment package for $26 per day and everyone in the room does not have to purchase.

 

I did not like the buffet on Harmony but that's because it was up on deck like 15 or 16 which was WAY too high for me and way too much movement. I loved the shower in our room. The shower was the only thing spacious about the room. (and we were in a balcony room) A tall person would have trouble closing the bathroom door while sitting down because it was so close to the door.

 

We also had issues with our cabin steward. We didn't have good service (no soap to wash hands, shower missing soap dispenser but never given soap) I did not like how they split the work - they had One head steward and then he had his assistants. What amazed me is how they didn't even know all the stewards on their hallway (I was in a big group and needed to put something in another cabin)

 

And the Harmony has the worst spa I've ever been in. I would think it was a 20 year old ship and they added the feature where they could find some space. Because it was tiny! And the gym smelled like the casino which was one floor down (? or up).

 

I'm always honest!

 

I don't understand one bit the complaints about the reservations for shows on Harmony. Why would anyone complain about this? It's optional. You can go standby and get seats, too. The reservations are more like a Fast Pass. You get to avoid the line and get a great seat. If you want to wait in line, have at it. We have waited standby and got good seats no problem as well. On Carnival, you just wait in a long line, that's it. When we were on Glory, the line for Comedy was so long and ridiculous, we skipped the adult show. Being able to show up 10 - 15 minutes before a show, skip the line and get a great seat is bad, why!? :confused:

 

Royal has a $13 per drink price compared to Carnival with the $50. Carnival limits you to 15 drinks. Truth be told, I would rate the drink packages equal. Royal would pour me anything I wanted. My father and I were practically making a game out of seeing what we could get. Patron Anejo? Sure! Pour it a double, please? Yeah, no problem! That low limit was new at the time so I was a little worried but turned out to be trivial. I drink a lot and still haven't managed to hit 15 on Carnival. As for it being more expensive because of 18% vs 15%... I think it should be 20%, so that makes no difference to me, personally.

 

I don't really know any ships where the buffet isn't up on the higher decks. That seems like an odd complaint but you are entitled to it. Harmony is a huge, stable ship, and ship movement is almost never a "thing" let alone because you are a couple decks higher. Heck, that's where they put their best suites.

 

I'm 6' 3" tall. I was in a regular ocean balcony cabin and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with the space being too tight for a tall person. Maybe you or your partner is 7' tall? The staterooms on Harmony are stellar, more than spacious and well designed with a ton of closet space. It's a welcome improvement over Oasis and Allure, actually. If the buffet being too high up and a bathroom door being slightly too close are your major complaints, then I'd say that was one heck of a cruise! Glad you loved it.

 

I never visited the spa for services but walked through to the gym. Didn't smell smoke and the walking track is the best at sea with a cool entrance right from the gym floor. They have a nice Vitality Cafe there, too. Not sure how you managed to dislike it so much but that's ok. If you like spas, I'd suggest you sail on NCL Escape.

[Aquahound]

Agreed, amazed me why anyone would want to vacation on a floating shopping mall full of people!:D

 

I would imagine the same reason people would want to cruise on Carnival's newest and largest ships, or NCL's newest and largest ships. What I will say is, having cruised RCI, NCL and Carnival, is that Oasis was the least crowded and had the best entertainment. But you'd actually have to be on board to know that.....that and not be blinded by loyalty to any particular cruise line. ;)

[lcpagejr]

Is this a RCL or Carnival forum??? If I want info on RCL...I know where to go....but I am not not getting into a tit for tat comparison on this board!! Each line has their "Cheerleaders" and that will never change. Loyalist's will continue to become defensive and dig in their heels to prove their points. Bottom line... there are many choices out there that offer similar experiences. Just cruise and enjoy

[KG1924]

Ignore list, wow, hurt!:D

BTW The Allure/and all Oasis sailing East visit only one port!

BTW those are the 4 in the same month you mentioned, so,,,,,,you got lucky! Good for you, but Carnival is almost always less!

And drink packages are almost always less on Carnival, so are drink prices!

 

But what you are saying just isn't true. The Allure and the Oasis do not have any 7 day sailings that visit only one port...at least none that I have seen. I will say that the itineraries are a bit boring since they can't fit in many ports, but their expanding their stops and a St. Thomas, St. Martin, and Bahamas itinerary is still a good week :)

 

We've always bought drink packages since they were introduced on both lines. To compare my most recent/upcoming sailings (Liberty of the Seas last spring break, Vista this upcoming spring break) We got RC's for $47/day and the Vista is $51 and some change/day. Personally, I really like that there is no limit on Royal. I've never ordered a drink that wasn't included, so I can't say if the price limit is a big deal or not. However, we have hit the 15 limit on Carnival sometimes...and it's annoying. So, yes, the drink packages can be more on Carnival but even if they're the exact same, I still much prefer the unlimited drink total.

 

Price wise, we are spending around $2k for our ocean view balcony on the Vista for 6 days, and we got that rate as booked in a group booking. To compare to our Liberty sailing last year, same week, was $1900 for 7 days. Now the Vista is much newer than the Liberty, so my closest comparison is the Allure back in May of 2016 for 7 days, just under $2k.

 

Also, you are comparing the Glory to the Oasis/Allure....that's just not the same or even similar. Compare the Vista or at least the Breeze/Dream/Magic for at least a somewhat similar comparison when looking at price.

[ryano]

But what you are saying just isn't true. The Allure and the Oasis do not have any 7 day sailings that visit only one port...at least none that I have seen. I will say that the itineraries are a bit boring since they can't fit in many ports, but their expanding their stops and a St. Thomas, St. Martin, and Bahamas itinerary is still a good week :)

 

We've always bought drink packages since they were introduced on both lines. To compare my most recent/upcoming sailings (Liberty of the Seas last spring break, Vista this upcoming spring break) We got RC's for $47/day and the Vista is $51 and some change/day. Personally, I really like that there is no limit on Royal. I've never ordered a drink that wasn't included, so I can't say if the price limit is a big deal or not. However, we have hit the 15 limit on Carnival sometimes...and it's annoying. So, yes, the drink packages can be more on Carnival but even if they're the exact same, I still much prefer the unlimited drink total.

 

Price wise, we are spending around $2k for our ocean view balcony on the Vista for 6 days, and we got that rate as booked in a group booking. To compare to our Liberty sailing last year, same week, was $1900 for 7 days. Now the Vista is much newer than the Liberty, so my closest comparison is the Allure back in May of 2016 for 7 days, just under $2k.

 

Also, you are comparing the Glory to the Oasis/Allure....that's just not the same or even similar. Compare the Vista or at least the Breeze/Dream/Magic for at least a somewhat similar comparison when looking at price.

 

Oasis of the Seas was definitely less expensive than Carnival Magic for the same type of cabin for our last cruise in October. My next cruise will be on one of these ships but it will probably be about the time Allure arrives to Port Canaveral.

[ryano]

I would imagine the same reason people would want to cruise on Carnival's newest and largest ships, or NCL's newest and largest ships. What I will say is, having cruised RCI, NCL and Carnival, is that Oasis was the least crowded and had the best entertainment. But you'd actually have to be on board to know that.....that and not be blinded by loyalty to any particular cruise line. ;)

 

Someone just brought logic to this discussion! How dare you! :cool:;p

[skiingj]

In all of my years of cruising I have NEVER found Royal to be cheaper than Carnival and I look all of the time. . It is NOT cheaper than carnival lol. Not even close.

 

Isn't this a Carnival Forum where we learn about Carnival?

 

You don't know what you are talking about. Go look at November 2019. Compare Horizon to Symphony. I realize Horizon is a 6 or 8 day but if you look at prices and pay attention you will see Horizon is MORE!!! Balcony to Balcony I compared. Carnival is $52 dollars more a day.

 

You're travel investigative skills are not good. I can find cheaper Royal rates all over the place. Who is laughing now??? HAHA LOL

 

You just learned Carnival can be MORE so add that you your Carnival forum I've learned something experience.

Edited March 16, 2018 by skiingj

[skiingj]

Agreed, amazed me why anyone would want to vacation on a floating shopping mall full of people!:D

 

I guess you won't be sailing the very large Carnival ships that are coming out in a few years? I'm sure some Carnival cheerleaders will say they are the best after trashing Oasis class. Oasis class is far less crowded than Vista. You don't have to look to far on the Carnival board to figure that out.