Crown & Anchor Diamond Plus cutbacks continue!

[Ocean Boy]

....and Adventure is safely tucked in at pier 29.....

[xpcdoojk]

6 hours ago, QueenofKrakatoa said:

whinge

Dictionary result for whinge

/(h)winj/

INFORMAL•BRITISH

verb

gerund or present participle: whinging

1. complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way.

   "stop whingeing and get on with it!"

   synonyms:

   complain, grouse, grouch, grumble, whine, moan, carp, mutter, murmur, whisper; More

 

Exactly

 

jc

[Joebucks]

On 2/21/2019 at 12:33 AM, xpcdoojk said:

Then I hear there are too many diamonds, and too many pinnacles, what are we going to do... O My.  I think that proves that what they are doing is working to get repeat business, why would they throw away the secret to their success.  It takes on average over a dozen cruises for a typical cruiser to make Diamond.  Sure there are those who sail in suites, who make it in 6 or 7, but they are paying a massive premium.  So we give them realistically, assuming they have 3 drinks in the lounge and 3 glasses of wine while having dinner, if they can manage all of that in the free drinks window, what might cost them $20, I think we can safely say they would happily give $20 a day to make $300, without adding in the drinks in the day time or excursions.  

 

If it was such a success secret, every business would do this. Think about it. I've come across plenty of hotels getting rid of their executive lounge. Everyone cries and yells that the hotel has doomed itself, but they still continue to sell out all of their rooms. I can't recall seeing a hotel add one because it is such a great business model. Keep in mind that there is already plenty of costs associated with cruising. Gluttonous consumption of alcohol from someone who is probably not buying other drinks, is not a model that is going to stay around forever. 

 

People say they would leave RCCL over it, but that amount would actually be minuscule. There are plenty of those who don't utilize this perk. There are plenty that would be fine with a few vouchers. 

[xpcdoojk]

I am pretty certain it is not a secret success, but it would be silly to call it failure.  RCI stock is up about 10X its value a decade ago when I became a diamond.

 

RCI is turning 50 this year I believe, do I think at the 100th birthday the C&A program will look like it does today.  That is highly unlikely so much so that I will say no.  Change is part of life, nothing stays the same.  That said, rumors of it changing significantly are as common as starlings, and the amount of change actual is virtually nil.

 

jc

Edited February 24, 2019 by xpcdoojk

[Paulette3028]

13 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

I am pretty certain it is not a secret success, but it would be silly to call it failure.  RCI stock is up about 10X its value a decade ago when I became a diamond.

 

RCI is turning 50 this year I believe, do I think at the 100th birthday the C&A program will look like it does today.  That is highly unlikely so much so that I will say no.  Change is part of life, nothing stays the same.  That said, rumors of it changing significantly are as common as starlings, and the amount of change actual is virtually nil.

 

jc

As many new Diamonds join that rank there are members of C&A that die off every year.  Do they do any analysis of various tier members and their cruising history to determine if frequency of cruising is changing or ceasing altogether?  That could keep a marketing executive busy quite a bit....but it would be more accurate that a 'raw number head count'.

[xpcdoojk]

While it is possible that RCI does an Actuarian data analysis, my guess based on my experience on the ships, is that it is doubtful.  My guess is they do what they are doing and then in some boardroom meeting they say let’s do this, then several weeks of chaos follows, then another boardroom meeting with MB replying to thousands of unhappy emails and he says what we did was completely wrong... then the board says lets do this.

 

I would like to think there is some science involved but I suspect there isn’t.🤡

 

jc

[cruisegirl1]

On 2/23/2019 at 10:12 PM, xpcdoojk said:

 

 

On the Quantum class they still have the awesome Concierge lounges, isn’t it just Oasis class that has the Suite lounges?  

 

Mariner has a suite Lounge. 

 

M

[rimmit]

7 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

While it is possible that RCI does an Actuarian data analysis, my guess based on my experience on the ships, is that it is doubtful.  My guess is they do what they are doing and then in some boardroom meeting they say let’s do this, then several weeks of chaos follows, then another boardroom meeting with MB replying to thousands of unhappy emails and he says what we did was completely wrong... then the board says lets do this.

 

I would like to think there is some science involved but I suspect there isn’t.🤡

 

jc

 

Yes,  I agree.   I do not think RCI is advanced enough to be doing advanced metrics on their c&a program.  I am sure they know through some basic analysis that the onboard spend is notably higher for a non c&a member than a Diamond and above,  but I doubt they break it down much after that.   They do minimal market research for any changes they make.  I am not aware of any surveys they send out before the implemented the Key program, Suite Lounges, their failed attemp to remove the free day of internet in favor of a discount coupon, or other large changes in ships.  If so I must have missed it.

 

Disney is constantly having teams on the ground at their theme parks with iPads asking guests their opinions on potential new experiences.  The cost they would be willing to pay for it,  what they would expect out of it, etc.   The only mid cruise survey I have ever done was on the Grandeur was asking about the WJ staff and I believe that was entirely internal to the ship.  It did not feel like it was coming from corporate.

 

RCI is just a little behind in the advanced metrics dept it seems,  but ironically enough I feel they are a little ahead of the game for the “millennial” crowd and their preferences compared to many other lines.

Edited February 25, 2019 by rimmit

[A&L_Ont]

12 hours ago, Paulette3028 said:

As many new Diamonds join that rank there are members of C&A that die off every year.  Do they do any analysis of various tier members and their cruising history to determine if frequency of cruising is changing or ceasing altogether?  That could keep a marketing executive busy quite a bit....but it would be more accurate that a 'raw number head count'.

 

I don’t there will be negative growth in the C&A numbers for some time. My suspicion/speculation would be 2/3 of the way on the plateau of the baby boomers. Once the boomers can no longer cruise the numbers will decline. Now if they aren’t tracking it how will they ever know. 🤔

 

7 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

While it is possible that RCI does an Actuarian data analysis, my guess based on my experience on the ships, is that it is doubtful.  My guess is they do what they are doing and then in some boardroom meeting they say let’s do this, then several weeks of chaos follows, then another boardroom meeting with MB replying to thousands of unhappy emails and he says what we did was completely wrong... then the board says lets do this.

 

I would like to think there is some science involved but I suspect there isn’t.🤡

 

jc

 

Agreed, no head count IMO. Perhaps a dartboard and a blindfold? 🎯 

[rimmit]

13 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

I don’t there will be negative growth in the C&A numbers for some time. My suspicion/speculation would be 2/3 of the way on the plateau of the baby boomers. Once the boomers can no longer cruise the numbers will decline. Now if they aren’t tracking it how will they ever know. 🤔

 

 

Agreed, no head count IMO. Perhaps a dartboard and a blindfold? 🎯 

 

It feels that way,  given the lack of any research that I have seen.  No surveys on new programs.   

 

I am definitely appreciative of their success as someone who bought stock in 2009,  but a lot of it I feel stems that they were ahead of the curve a little bit and now many lines are playing catch-up.   RCI starting with the Voyager class really started to cater to families.   Families and especially millennial families have only recently discovered cruising a family vacation as the marketing of the 90’s when many were growing up was that cruising was a more high end chill vacation.  Not really family friendly.   RCI having built a fleet of family friendly ships was really in prime position to capitalize on the millennial social media trend of not buying material possessions and spending their money on experiences and vacations.   

 

Rarely do millennials post that they bought a new house, or new car or jewelry.  Sometimes but rarely.   It’s taboo to show off that insane house.   However,   It’s totally acceptable to be in Santorini and Iceland and post about that.

 

Disney has been the biggest winner due to Facebook and instagram.  If you are a parent with kids these days the guilt in not taking them to Disney is immense given the sheer bombardment on social media of Disney trips.

[Paulette3028]

1 hour ago, rimmit said:

 

Yes,  I agree.   I do not think RCI is advanced enough to be doing advanced metrics on their c&a program.  I am sure they know through some basic analysis that the onboard spend is notably higher for a non c&a member than a Diamond and above,  but I doubt they break it down much after that.   They do minimal market research for any changes they make.  I am not aware of any surveys they send out before the implemented the Key program, Suite Lounges, their failed attemp to remove the free day of internet in favor of a discount coupon, or other large changes in ships.  If so I must have missed it.

 

Disney is constantly having teams on the ground at their theme parks with iPads asking guests their opinions on potential new experiences.  The cost they would be willing to pay for it,  what they would expect out of it, etc.   The only mid cruise survey I have ever done was on the Grandeur was asking about the WJ staff and I believe that was entirely internal to the ship.  It did not feel like it was coming from corporate.

 

RCI is just a little behind in the advanced metrics dept it seems,  but ironically enough I feel they are a little ahead of the game for the “millennial” crowd and their preferences compared to many other lines.

For a company that is 50 years old they have to be doing some type of analytics to make very expensive business decisions for the build of new ships.  How extensive is my wonder.  You don't need customer surveys/questionnaires because unfortunately those don't necessarily bring you the most honest answers.  Tracking a customers cruise history and reaching out to that particular cruiser when changes in their cruising pattern changes would be more valuable....and more difficult.

[A&L_Ont]

8 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

For a company that is 50 years old they have to be doing some type of analytics to make very expensive business decisions for the build of new ships.  How extensive is my wonder.  You don't need customer surveys/questionnaires because unfortunately those don't necessarily bring you the most honest answers.  Tracking a customers cruise history and reaching out to that particular cruiser when changes in their cruising pattern changes would be more valuable....and more difficult.

 

If they have any program, I suspect it runs C&A members against their last cruise to see how long ago it was. They’d be foolish not to correlate it to age as well.  The general program numbers will never drop, because I doubt an executer will call them to let them know that a member has passed. However, they could safely speculate that a member that hasn’t sailed in 10 years, who is 88, will most likely never sail again. 

[rimmit]

38 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

For a company that is 50 years old they have to be doing some type of analytics to make very expensive business decisions for the build of new ships.  How extensive is my wonder.  You don't need customer surveys/questionnaires because unfortunately those don't necessarily bring you the most honest answers.  Tracking a customers cruise history and reaching out to that particular cruiser when changes in their cruising pattern changes would be more valuable....and more difficult.

I agree.  That is ENTIRELY what you’d expect.   But what I have discovered recently, through mergers of large companies,  some of which have been around 100+ years,  you can’t assume anything.  Just cu they’ve been around along time doesn’t mean they are making smart decisions.   We assume that when building a billion dollar ship they would be analyzing everything about it. 

 

You are absolutely right in that surveys are not entirely accurate.  New Coke came about because it beat classic coke in blind taste tests (and coke was losing ground to Pepsi at the time). While surveys don’t always yield true honesty they can definitely ball park what people are expecting. Although if you put out a survey to at least survey patterns for what people want to do on board,   You can at least try and ball park the size of the venues.    At this point they are 4 ships into Oasis and are still tweaking the design a little.

 

We would assume they would have a large analytics division analyzing every purchase, age of person buying,  likelihood to make a purchase based on day of week,  previous purchase patterns, time of day, etc, much in the same way Facebook and google is able to predict everything you do,  but based on the RCI website and APP and the history of their IT dept in general....    I make no assumptions they are doing advanced analytics.

 

Ultimately, I doubt RCI will ever survey the C&A crowd for any loss of benefits or exchange of benefits as that would set a wild fire through the internet.  They just make them and see how bad the backlash is.

Edited February 25, 2019 by rimmit

[grapau27]

38 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

For a company that is 50 years old they have to be doing some type of analytics to make very expensive business decisions for the build of new ships.  How extensive is my wonder.  You don't need customer surveys/questionnaires because unfortunately those don't necessarily bring you the most honest answers.  Tracking a customers cruise history and reaching out to that particular cruiser when changes in their cruising pattern changes would be more valuable....and more difficult.

When you check in online they ask how many cruises you have done.

[Paulette3028]

2 minutes ago, rimmit said:

 While surveys don’t always yield true honesty they can definitely ball park what people are expecting. 

 

Customers only want what is 'best for them' or 'good for them' from their POV.  They never want to hear, 'Oh that is not our policy' because the customer response is always 'You can make an exception for me'.   There in lies the big problem.  Everyone reading this has probably said that in some situation, even if it was a retail return at a local store.

 

Royal had a policy years ago that special pricing and C&A discounts were combinable and you could be given multiple discounts on a cruise booking.....long gone.  That was very good for cruisers, but Royal at some point saw it as financially poor policy for them.  

 

 

[Paulette3028]

12 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

When you check in online they ask how many cruises you have done.

That one question tells you tells them very little.....it is what investigation they do after that with 'cruiser history' that helps them determine anything.

 

I have 27 cruises right now, over the last 15 years.  Were more of those cruises in the early years, or have they been more recent? Have my cruises become longer, or shorter over time?  Have I been booking my cruises only when on sale or have they been only during 'holiday seasons'?  Do I primarily book onboard?  

 

So that question asked at checkin is ONLY a starting point for discovery of patterns to the cruisers sailing.   

[rimmit]

30 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

That one question tells you tells them very little.....it is what investigation they do after that with 'cruiser history' that helps them determine anything.

 

I have 27 cruises right now, over the last 15 years.  Were more of those cruises in the early years, or have they been more recent? Have my cruises become longer, or shorter over time?  Have I been booking my cruises only when on sale or have they been only during 'holiday seasons'?  Do I primarily book onboard?  

 

So that question asked at checkin is ONLY a starting point for discovery of patterns to the cruisers sailing.   

 

I honestly thought the poster was making a point that RCI is so bad in tracking data, that while they can’t track how many cruises you do total,  they can definitely count your RCI cruises.  The fact they ask if you have cruises before, yet you are diamond shows you are a crown and anchor member shows that they are not terribly advanced.   

 

I am well aware of the lack of combo ability.  As a stock holder that used to get 200 credit from next cruise and 200 from stock holder for an inside cabin back in the day, that now gets nothing from stock holder and next cruise,  I am painfully aware.

46 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

Customers only want what is 'best for them' or 'good for them' from their POV.  They never want to hear, 'Oh that is not our policy' because the customer response is always 'You can make an exception for me'.   There in lies the big problem.  Everyone reading this has probably said that in some situation, even if it was a retail return at a local store.

 

Royal had a policy years ago that special pricing and C&A discounts were combinable and you could be given multiple discounts on a cruise booking.....long gone.  That was very good for cruisers, but Royal at some point saw it as financially poor policy for them.  

 

 

 

Of course surveys directly asking “how would you feel if we took away free alcohol?” Would go poorly.  That is a bad survey.  Same with “would you leave RCI if we took away the happy hour?”  “If we eliminated combinability of discounts would that effect your travel patterns”

 

If they survey,  it’s things like “if we offered a new program call “The Key” that allowed exclusive access to certain things how much would you pay?”  Also “What would you expect out of the Key program?” And questions like that.  Also surveys probing for alternative solutions.  “How would you feel if instead of the DL we gave 4 vouchers to use throughout ship?”   “How would you feel making Diamond a diamond plus and above lounge and giving  4 vouchers to use throughout the ship at any venue during diamond hour.  Those are more reasonable and people are more likely to give an honest response.   I am diamond and I would go for the 4 drinks anywhere and be ok losing the DL until i hit D+.   Many would as well i bet.  Also maybe expanding the drink menu while kicking Diamonds out.  Those are all surveys that would yield reasonable results

 

I am a huge sci if collector.  I get surveys all the time about if this toy hit the market, how much would I pay,  what would I expect it to come with, what type of materials should it be constructed out off,  Etc.  Of course I could put the lowest possible price but that is not helpful.  You have to respond honestly as they are a company and they have to make money.  They can’t give out toys for free.  

[rimmit]

One example where they should’ve done the survey, was when they changed the Internet benefit. When they started giving percentage discounts for your entire cruise for an Internet package, instead of your free day or two days of Internet for diamond and diamond plus.  This caused mass out rage. I was on a cruise when the change happened last March. At the beginning of the cruise I had a free day of Internet, I had not used it and went to use it and the coupon was gone.

 

I want to the loyalty ambassador, and she explained to me that the coupon had changed. She said she had heard a lot of complaints about it. By the end of the cruise due to numerous complaints the royal somehow got their act together, and change the coupon back and we still have our free day of Internet. If they are willing to change something back after they make a change, they should survey before.

 

However unlike the room service charge, where they hard line and said there is a 7.95 charge regardless of complaints, in that situation a survey would not have been helpful As they were making the change regardless of customer feedback.

[Paulette3028]

8 minutes ago, rimmit said:

 

I honestly thought the poster was making a point that RCI is so bad in tracking data, that while they can’t track how many cruises you do total,  they can definitely count your RCI cruises.  The fact they ask if you have cruises before, yet you are diamond shows you are a crown and anchor member shows that they are not terribly advanced.   

 

I am well aware of the lack of combo ability.  As a stock holder that used to get 200 credit from next cruise and 200 from stock holder for an inside cabin back in the day, that now gets nothing from stock holder and next cruise,  I am painfully aware.

 

Of course surveys directly asking “how would you feel if we took away free alcohol?” Would go poorly.  That is a bad survey.  Same with “would you leave RCI if we took away the happy hour?”  “If we eliminated combinability of discounts would that effect your travel patterns”

 

If they survey,  it’s things like “if we offered a new program call “The Key” that allowed exclusive access to certain things how much would you pay?”  Also “What would you expect out of the Key program?” And questions like that.  Also surveys probing for alternative solutions.  “How would you feel if instead of the DL we gave 4 vouchers to use throughout ship?”   “How would you feel making Diamond a diamond plus and above lounge and giving  4 vouchers to use throughout the ship at any venue during diamond hour.  Those are more reasonable and people are more likely to give an honest response.   I am diamond and I would go for the 4 drinks anywhere and be ok losing the DL until i hit D+.   Many would as well i bet.  Also maybe expanding the drink menu while kicking Diamonds out.  Those are all surveys that would yield reasonable results

 

I am a huge sci if collector.  I get surveys all the time about if this toy hit the market, how much would I pay,  what would I expect it to come with, what type of materials should it be constructed out off,  Etc.  Of course I could put the lowest possible price but that is not helpful.  You have to respond honestly as they are a company and they have to make money.  They can’t give out toys for free.  

Data collection is a very difficult process.....people lie all the time....on everything....so sad, but true.  Royal also worries that severe changes would anger existing loyal cruisers and that the money generated from newbies can't make up for that possible lost revenue....so they have to be slow to change and careful in what they choose to do.

 

I believe the 4 drinks (including specialty coffees) on your set sail pass, used at anytime of the day and anywhere would be a good option and then have the lounge be D+ and it isn't a dramatic change.  I just overeat at the lounge anyway, is my feeling.  

 

I was on a recent sailing on Symphony with people who bought the Key program and all said, never again....not enough value for the $$.  When Royal rolled out Dynamic Dining, that bombed.....and maybe the Key program will as well.....time will tell.

[John&LaLa]

2 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

I don’t there will be negative growth in the C&A numbers for some time. My suspicion/speculation would be 2/3 of the way on the plateau of the baby boomers. Once the boomers can no longer cruise the numbers will decline. Now if they aren’t tracking it how will they ever know. 🤔

 

 

At 56, I'm a tail end Baby Boomer, and definitely on the young end of the Pinnacle age range.  Most bbn of the new Pinnacles I am aware of are typically 10 years older than us.  However, I know tons of folks my age in the 340 - 525 range. Many of them will become Pinnacle in the next 5 years or so.

[rimmit]

36 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

I was on a recent sailing on Symphony with people who bought the Key program and all said, never again....not enough value for the $$.  When Royal rolled out Dynamic Dining, that bombed.....and maybe the Key program will as well.....time will tell.

 

Dynamic dining was a disaster and garnered awful reviews.  We did experience it on the Ovation when it launched,  I am not sure if it is still around in the Asian market.   We were initially super against against it,  but after 16 nights on the ovation the idea had warmed up to us and we enjoyed it and was actually sad to hear it discontinued.

 

I question if RCI did any market research prior to implementation.  This is a case where the demographic they are chasing “millennials” was not the demographic primarily sailing on the boat “baby boomers.”   With some research on the demographic that fills probably 80% of their berths at least,  they maybe should have not tried something so dramatic.

 

10 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

At 56, I'm a tail end Baby Boomer, and definitely on the young end of the Pinnacle age range.  Most bbn of the new Pinnacles I am aware of are typically 10 years older than us.  However, I know tons of folks my age in the 340 - 525 range. Many of them will become Pinnacle in the next 5 years or so.

 

In short we are a ways away from hitting steady state for pinnacles.  

 

I am 37 and am 10 points from D+ set to hit this March on the Grandeur.  It really doesn’t take much other than a couple cruises a year to move up quickly.  Me and the DW tried to cruise more exclusively on RCI starting 2007 (although still hop around in Disney, NCL, Celebrity, and HA in during that time) and despite the lack of total loyalty will hit D+ without too much trouble only sailing in a jr suite once to hit D and a VO this March sailing to hit D+.

 

I do not believe Diamond will ever hit a steady state,  due to the ever increasing number of berths and the much lower age of a D.

Edited February 25, 2019 by rimmit

[A&L_Ont]

15 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

At 56, I'm a tail end Baby Boomer, and definitely on the young end of the Pinnacle age range.  Most bbn of the new Pinnacles I am aware of are typically 10 years older than us.  However, I know tons of folks my age in the 340 - 525 range. Many of them will become Pinnacle in the next 5 years or so.

 

LOL, I'm about 10 years younger and am in that range.  I think when that range hits it will keep the numbers steady VS a negative growth in numbers.

[grapau27]

2 hours ago, Paulette3028 said:

That one question tells you tells them very little.....it is what investigation they do after that with 'cruiser history' that helps them determine anything.

 

I have 27 cruises right now, over the last 15 years.  Were more of those cruises in the early years, or have they been more recent? Have my cruises become longer, or shorter over time?  Have I been booking my cruises only when on sale or have they been only during 'holiday seasons'?  Do I primarily book onboard?  

 

So that question asked at checkin is ONLY a starting point for discovery of patterns to the cruisers sailing.   

I agree.

Our cruise in May will be our 50th.

Normally I get asked to tick which cruise companies we have cruised with and how many but I think their maximum if my memory is correct is 10+.

We have a P&O cruise in August and I got a survey from them asking all sorts of questions about who we booked with, itinerary,length of cruise what type of cruise do we prefer, entertainment we like etc,etc,etc.

[rimmit]

4 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

We have a P&O cruise in August and I got a survey from them asking all sorts of questions about who we booked with, itinerary,length of cruise what type of cruise do we prefer, entertainment we like etc,etc,etc.

 

And this is why I doubt RCI is in the business of advanced metrics of any kind. They do some basic analysis in that they discovered that the more you spend precruise, the more you spend during your cruise so it’s a win win for them.  But I question how deep there analysis goes.  

 

I feel RCI was one of those companies that just happened to luck into being in the right place at the right time to take advantage of the changing tastes of the consumer.    They are very forward thinking in some areas as well, which has allowed them to continue their lead as most family friendly cruise line that doesn’t have a mouse as a mascot.

[nelblu]

2 hours ago, Paulette3028 said:

That one question tells you tells them very little.....it is what investigation they do after that with 'cruiser history' that helps them determine anything.

 

I have 27 cruises right now, over the last 15 years.  Were more of those cruises in the early years, or have they been more recent? Have my cruises become longer, or shorter over time?  Have I been booking my cruises only when on sale or have they been only during 'holiday seasons'?  Do I primarily book onboard?  

 

So that question asked at checkin is ONLY a starting point for discovery of patterns to the cruisers sailing.   

 

RCL has historical cruise info by individual which provides ability to extract any statistics.  Remember, when they converted to C&A # of nights, there was an issue with my # of points, and resolved when the details was examined/compared.