ComPensation

[sail7seas]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I see several sides to this issue.  I agree with the general theme of the OP's that folks are often seeking compensation when it is not appropriate.  A good example is expecting a cruise line to give out OBCs because of bad weather or because the "flu" is going around the ship.  That is nutz.  And there is no reason to expect compensation for a missed port (if the miss was for circumstances beyond the control of the cruise line) other then a refund of related port charges/fees (this is now the rule after a class action settlement in Florida).

 

But there are also times I think customers should be given substantial compensation.  One of my favorite examples is a cruise that is cancelled because the cruise line decides to charter the ship (after having excepted bookings for the scheduled cruise) or bumps many passengers because the cruise line decides to contract with a large group.  In those cases I believe cruisers should receive a hefty settlement, perhaps double the price of the booking plus any expenses (such as for previously booked flights).  In fact, I would like to see the cruise industry voluntarily agree to a "Passenger Bill of Rights" which delineates the right of the passenger.  Many may think this is nutz, but they should take the time to read all the fine print in the passenger contract which gives the cruise line every right under the stars/sun and few rights to the passenger.  

 

One of my pet negative peeves about HAL are their so-called "dark nights" that sometimes happen on longer cruises.  They are called dark nights because the main theater remains dark (unused) and there is little to no other entertainment on the ship (they will usually offer some kind of movie).  When I book a cruise I do not expect to be paying for "dark nights."  I expect reasonable entertainment every night of a cruise....and in my world seeing an old movie is not reasonable.  I do not expect "dark nights" any more then I expect a "dark night" in the MDR if a cruise line decides, "we have served enough meals so there will be no dinner tonight!"   On one such "dark night" which happened on the Prinsendam (our favorite HAL vessel) I mentioned to the CD that HAL should

13 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

I don't know you but your reply says sufficient about you. Later.

 

I'll try to type my response with no typo as I  try hard to not offend:

 

Ditto.

 

There, I suceeded  (I think 🙂 )

 

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

 

ireimburse part of the daily per-diem charge on days when there was no entertainment.  The CD tactfully agreed and told us that his attempts to have more "Guest Entertainers" on the cruise were rebuffed by corporate.   They actually ran out of entertainers and contractual obligations limited the CD's ability to over schedule the entertainers who were onboard.

 

When HAL started their "EXP" cruises they did make it clear that there was going to be very limited entertainment on those cruises (mostly on the Maasdam).  This was fine since it was disclosed and folks could make their own decision if they wanted to book that kind of cruise.  But when there is inadequate entertainment on a normal cruise there should be compensation because this is something under the control of the cruise line and happens because of a deliberate decision.

 

Hank

 

[sail7seas]

7 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

Careful, Hank or we may start having a 'guest ..  " non-talent  "  night 

 

Yikes. 

 

That will get rid  of dark nights.  🙂

 

 

[Hlitner]

Sail7Seas,

No worries about ever offending me here on CC :).   

 

Hank

[sail7seas]

Thank you,   third Generation , for commenting about my issue with typing.  I know  my left hand has healed as much as it  is going to   and if typos  are  the worst   I suffer, oh well,         Who of us are perfect and absolutely error free?    Given a choice I prefer  to be the one making   the error rather than the person mocking an 'obvious mistake       Says more about  the one mocking than the  person who made the  error.  I shall write the following for the umpteenth time.  I try to correct my errors but    i t is exhausting  because I make so many.   Anyone who remains offended by my errors can put me on   their   ignore list and not have to be   disturbed  by my left hand 'typos. G asp ,  .   Or there is always the choice to sail  on past any  message or thread.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

12 hours ago, jimmy2x said:

Sail, just wanted you to know that I appreciate the invaluable information I’ve gotten from you over the years. As I recall, we both migrated to CC about the same time when another board shut down. As a newbie, I knew very little except that I was looking forward to being back at sea. You and a few other long time HAL cruisers never failed to help. 

Jimmy,

such a nice message    Thank you

 

There really are many very nice people here on the CC/HAL forum

 

 

[sail7seas]

18 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Sail7Seas,

No worries about ever offending me here on CC :).   

 

Hank

I shall try hard to not offend  you or anyone  🙂

 

Judy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VennDiagram]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

But there are also times I think customers should be given substantial compensation.  One of my favorite examples is a cruise that is cancelled because the cruise line decides to charter the ship (after having excepted bookings for the scheduled cruise) or bumps many passengers because the cruise line decides to contract with a large group.  In those cases I believe cruisers should receive a hefty settlement, perhaps double the price of the booking plus any expenses (such as for previously booked flights).  In fact, I would like to see the cruise industry voluntarily agree to a "Passenger Bill of Rights" which delineates the right of the passenger. 

 

I think a Passenger Bill of Rights is a great idea, especially for people bumped from cruises because the ship has been chartered.  I definitely agree with you that airfare reimbursement should be required.

 

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

One of my pet negative peeves about HAL are their so-called "dark nights" that sometimes happen on longer cruises.  They are called dark nights because the main theater remains dark (unused) and there is little to no other entertainment on the ship (they will usually offer some kind of movie).  When I book a cruise I do not expect to be paying for "dark nights." 

 

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I mentioned to the CD that HAL should reimburse part of the daily per-diem charge on days when there was no entertainment. 

 

We don't do long cruises, and seldom frequent the theatre.   So for us, we don't really care whether there is entertainment there or not.  I think it would be difficult to quantify how many people care as much, or to a similar degree, as you do about those "dark nights".  I can see benefit to people who hold the same perspective on this that you do, but I expect there would be a reasonable number of people who have little concern about a few "dark nights".  So then, HAL would be reimbursing some people for stuff that doesn't matter to them.  And then that develops a slippery slope -- do people who use the hot tubs daily get reimbursed if the hot tub fails? Or if the saunas need to be closed for some reason? Or if (horrors!) there's no romaine lettuce?

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, VennDiagram said:

 

I think a Passenger Bill of Rights is a great idea, especially for people bumped from cruises because the ship has been chartered.  I definitely agree with you that airfare reimbursement should be required.

 

 

 

We don't do long cruises, and seldom frequent the theatre.   So for us, we don't really care whether there is entertainment there or not.  I think it would be difficult to quantify how many people care as much, or to a similar degree, as you do about those "dark nights".  I can see benefit to people who hold the same perspective on this that you do, but I expect there would be a reasonable number of people who have little concern about a few "dark nights".  So then, HAL would be reimbursing some people for stuff that doesn't matter to them.  And then that develops a slippery slope -- do people who use the hot tubs daily get reimbursed if the hot tub fails? Or if the saunas need to be closed for some reason? Or if (horrors!) there's no romaine lettuce?

You have a point.  But one wonders how advertising "we have dark nights" would impact the decision of some to book HAL.  I have been cruising, extensively, for over forty years and HAL is the ONLY cruise line where we have run into the "dark night" thing.  In fact, I never even heard the term "dark night" except on HAL.

 

Hank

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

 

 

But there are also times I think customers should be given substantial compensation.  One of my favorite examples is a cruise that is cancelled because the cruise line decides to charter the ship (after having excepted bookings for the scheduled cruise) or bumps many passengers because the cruise line decides to contract with a large group.  In those cases I believe cruisers should receive a hefty settlement, perhaps double the price of the booking plus any expenses (such as for previously booked flights).  In fact, I would like to see the cruise industry voluntarily agree to a "Passenger Bill of Rights" which delineates the right of the passenger.  Many may think this is nutz, but they should take the time to read all the fine print in the passenger contract which gives the cruise line every right under the stars/sun and few rights to the passenger.  

 

 

 

Hank

 

 

I trimmed this to the one paragraph I want to answer.

 

I have been very lucky in that I haven't been bumped by a charter, but I've seen many threads about it. So much so that I won't book a 1-week cruise or a B2B made up of two 1-week cruises because those are the ones most often chartered. I tend to book early, and so there's time for a group to swoop in and mess up my plans. 

 

You're right that the cruise line has all the rights. In some cases, it makes sense, like cancelled ports. Weather, strikes, all kinds of things the line can't control come into play. Other things, like entertainment, are under their control, but not guaranteed so I don't see compensation as necessary there. That opens a whole can of claims. I hate Rock Room and BB King because they're so loud that I can't go there. I hate that the Neptunes are gone from the Ocean Bar on most ships. But even if those changes were made when I was on the ship, I don't think I'd be entitled to compensation. 

 

But your example of the cancelled cruise definitely should be looked at. I don't know if double the price is appropriate, seems a bit high, but certainly the cruise lines should do more for people whose cruises are cancelled. A wider choice for rebooking than we sometimes see, for example. With the possibility of NA having to cancel a cruise, several people pointed out that vacation time must be arranged well in advance. These people can't just say, "OK, I'll go next month." So if the cruise line gives future cruise credit money, it should have a long enough life to fit into people's plans and it should be applicable to a cruise already booked but not past final payment.  Yes, cover airline already booked and paid for--and not just booked through HAL. If you can show proof you bought plane tickets, HAL should cover that. Of course, if you have insurance, you're already covered, but a lot of people don't buy the insurance until final payment (not me, I buy it right away, but that's a whole other issue).

 

HAL was very generous with the NA cancelled cruise. I wonder if that's because the cancellation was due to a mechanical problem, which would be covered to some extent by their insurance? 

 

 

[Hlitner]

The issue with Chartered or Large Group cruises bumping folks has become all too common, especially with certain cruise lines.  This is simply a "greedy" decision by the cruise lines and shows their total disregard for their customers.  The penalties for such a decision should be punitive, hence my idea of double damages.  I would even suggest higher penalties if the Charter is done within 330 days of a cruise.

 

Hank 

[kazu]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

 

I have been very lucky in that I haven't been bumped by a charter, but I've seen many threads about it. So much so that I won't book a 1-week cruise or a B2B made up of two 1-week cruises because those are the ones most often chartered. I tend to book early, and so there's time for a group to swoop in and mess up my plans. 

 

You can be “chartered out” on cruises other than a 1 week or a B2B.

 

A few years ago I had an Asia cruise planned for 30 days.  It was chartered out.  Apparently the same company did it for several years !  They only chartered one segment but since it was part of our cruise we were in effect cancelled.

 

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

 

But your example of the cancelled cruise definitely should be looked at. I don't know if double the price is appropriate, seems a bit high, but certainly the cruise lines should do more for people whose cruises are cancelled. A wider choice for rebooking than we sometimes see, for example. With the possibility of NA having to cancel a cruise, several people pointed out that vacation time must be arranged well in advance. These people can't just say, "OK, I'll go next month." So if the cruise line gives future cruise credit money, it should have a long enough life to fit into people's plans and it should be applicable to a cruise already booked but not past final payment.  Yes, cover airline already booked and paid for--and not just booked through HAL. If you can show proof you bought plane tickets, HAL should cover that. Of course, if you have insurance, you're already covered, but a lot of people don't buy the insurance until final payment (not me, I buy it right away, but that's a whole other issue).

 

 

In my case IIRC HAL gave us $900 OBC pp to be applied to our next cruise as long as it was booked within the same time frame and the same length of time (or more).

 

Airfares were not affected as this was more than a year out so I thought it was fair as we had the time to look.  In fact when the notice came, I was cruising and my TA asked HAL to extend my booking deadline because of it and they did.  It worked out well since I found the Prinsendam’s Black Sea itinerary.  Turns out a lot of those ports would not be available again so for us, all was well that ended well.

[sail7seas]

9 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

I just want to expand on what I said. From my point of view, someone came in aggressively and did not assume good faith on my part, without any cause, to gain a rhetorical advantage.  In other words, going after someone else personally to make a point on a comment board. Such things are regrettable, and today, with the increasing prevalence of cell phone cameras, tend to backfire. I now return you to your previously scheduled thread.

 

The connection  which makes cell phone cameras   pertinent to the flow of this conversation is  ?     What do cell phone cameras have to do with any of this? 

 

Sorry but I  cannot find the 'tie in'.

 

 

 

 

sail.noordam@gmail.com

 

[sambamama]

When I booked my first TA, HAL had just launched Lincoln Center. I was really looking forward to it, and it was a major factor in my booking that cruise. I boarded the ship to find out there was no Lincoln Center as there was a problem with the stage, and they didn't hire a classical duo or trio to replace them. There was another HAL  ship doing a TA I could have sailed on that had Lincoln Center. So a cruise with 7 straight sea days had no classical music as advertised! 

[VennDiagram]

On 12/28/2019 at 11:20 AM, Hlitner said:

The issue with Chartered or Large Group cruises bumping folks has become all too common, especially with certain cruise lines.  This is simply a "greedy" decision by the cruise lines and shows their total disregard for their customers.  The penalties for such a decision should be punitive, hence my idea of double damages.  I would even suggest higher penalties if the Charter is done within 330 days of a cruise.

 

Hank 

 

I can't agree that it is a "greedy" decision.  A charter is usually a very good business decision.  The entire ship is sold out at an agreed-upon price which adds to the bottom line, right?  And that makes shareholders happy. 

[sail7seas]

On 12/28/2019 at 1:01 PM, VennDiagram said:

 

I think a Passenger Bill of Rights is a great idea, especially for people bumped from cruises because the ship has been chartered.  I definitely agree with you that airfare reimbursement should be required.

 

 

 

We don't do long cruises, and seldom frequent the theatre.   So for us, we don't really care whether there is entertainment there or not.  I think it would be difficult to quantify how many people care as much, or to a similar degree, as you do about those "dark nights".  I can see benefit to people who hold the same perspective on this that you do, but I expect there would be a reasonable number of people who have little concern about a few "dark nights".  So then, HAL would be reimbursing some people for stuff that doesn't matter to them.  And then that develops a slippery slope -- do people who use the hot tubs daily get reimbursed if the hot tub fails? Or if the saunas need to be closed for some reason? Or if (horrors!) there's no romaine lettuce?

 

 

 

 

Few issues we discuss here are  either black or white.

This is  one  that really is not  perfectly one way or the other.

        

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sail7seas]

On 12/28/2019 at 1:01 PM, VennDiagram said:

 

I think a Passenger Bill of Rights is a great idea, especially for people bumped from cruises because the ship has been chartered.  I definitely agree with you that airfare reimbursement should be required.

 

[/quote]

Quote

 

 

We, the Passengers, have  the ultimate Bill of Rights. 

Our choice   to not sail HAL ,     not sail at all or  sail a different cruise line..............  Yes, Stating the Obvious.

 

 

  Maybe I just didn't read the threads  but I do not recall seeing hardly a tiny number o f charters mentioned   here when a booked cruise got cancelled for a charter.

  We used to see  such threads on a fairly regular basis.

 

 

 

 

 

If  that is accurate, does that say something about the

status of those very  profitable charters  ?  Why are  there  so many fewer charters, If, Indeed, tha t IS the case?

 

There used to be a great many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

We don't do long cruises, and seldom frequent the theatre.   So for us, we don't really care whether there is entertainment there or not.  I think it would be difficult to quantify how many people care as much, or to a similar degree, as you do about those "dark nights".  I can see benefit to people who hold the same perspective on this that you do, but I expect there would be a reasonable number of people who have little concern about a few "dark nights".  So then, HAL would be reimbursing some people for stuff that doesn't matter to them.  And then that develops a slippery slope -- do people who use the hot tubs daily get reimbursed if the hot tub fails? Or if the saunas need to be closed for some reason? Or if (horrors!) there's no romaine lettuce?

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by sail7seas

[DeeniEncinitas]

35 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

 

[/quote]

 

We, the Passengers, have  the ultimate Bill of Rights. 

Our choice   to not sail HAL ,     not sail at all or  sail a different cruise line..............  Yes, Stating the Obvious.

 

 

  Maybe I just didn't read the threads  but I do not recall seeing hardly a tiny number o f charters mentioned   here when a booked cruise got cancelled for a charter.

  We used to see  such threads on a fairly regular basis.

 

 

 

 

 

If  that is accurate, does that say something about the

status of those very  profitable charters  ?  Why are  there  so many fewer charters, If, Indeed, tha t IS the case?

 

There used to be a great many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

Sails!

I am here to change the subject just for a moment!!

To my friend on CC!! 
HAPPY NEW YEARS Sails! Over the years I have enjoyed the valuable information, 

how passionate you are, your great candor, and most of all your friendship!

May 2020 bring us all health, friendships, happiness and most of all CRUISING!!

I raise a glass of bubbly this morning in San Diego at our brunch here at home

to you!

Denise😊

[strickerj]

On 12/31/2019 at 5:03 PM, VennDiagram said:

 

I can't agree that it is a "greedy" decision.  A charter is usually a very good business decision.  The entire ship is sold out at an agreed-upon price which adds to the bottom line, right?  And that makes shareholders happy. 

I struggle to come up with a better word than "greed" for going back on a deal (in this case, confirmed, paid-for reservations) because a better offer came up. That it's the best business decision and makes your shareholders happy doesn't really prove it isn't greed. (In fact I'd say it comes close to the opposite.)

[tkwbear]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:46 PM, Copper10-8 said:

 

A bit younger future Captain Bart (center, as officer cadet) 

Who is the officer on the right? He looks very familiar.

[Copper10-8]

42 minutes ago, tkwbear said:

Who is the officer on the right? He looks very familiar.

 

Capt. Johannes "Hans" van Biljouw