Diamond Princess passenger "tested positive for Wuhan coronavirus"

[phil the brit]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The air vents outside the cabins are merely a return vent that provides the path for the overpressure in the cabin to relieve itself into the passageway.  The passageway has its own recirculation air system, separate from the cabins.  As I've said before, the cabins are kept at a higher pressure than the passageways to prevent smoke from a fire from travelling down the passageway and filling the rest of the cabins with smoke.  So, in an abundance of caution, since both the WHO and CDC don't believe the virus can be transmitted through an AC duct system, but can be transmitted over about 6 feet by droplets, these direct vents from the cabin to a public space are taped over, forcing the excess pressure to vent out below the door, hence further from someone who might inhale just after someone in the cabin sneezed at the vent.

 

Do you believe that each room in a hospital, even in anything short of a level 3 biohazard lab has separate air conditioning systems for each room?  They don't.

You are wrong I'm afraid, not all of the air is fresh on the ship. In a biohazard lab ALL of the air is fresh. Fact.

[fragilek]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But, just looking at your first link, use of bleach, peroxide, or even ethanol can kill coronavirus with only a one minute contact time.  So, since corona is an enveloped virus, unlike noro, alcohol is effective in killing it, and the concentrations in the sanitizing agents used on ships like Virkon, meet the concentrations needed to quickly kill the virus.  Interestingly, the link also states that benzalkonium chloride (which many manufacturers claim as effective against other coronaviruses) has shown "conflicting" results.

 Yip I know all that (kind of hope I do lol I was a research pharmaceutical scientist all my working life, and some of my ex- collages are working on this virus right now)- Virus survival - how long it survives without treatment.  Not important once the ship is treated, but it will be important to the crew still on it and the passengers still to disembark.  People branding numbers about with out the support of science is not a good idea. 

[Colo Cruiser]

24 minutes ago, AlyssaJames said:

 

This article can be summed up as "we have no idea".

Nobody on this thread has any idea except for @chengkp75 who has the training, knowledge, and years of first hand experience to back it up. 

 

Everyone else is an expert.  Not.   🙄

[bluesea321]

11 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

From chengkp75, who posted this a few weeks ago:

"One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler."

 

And from Rai Calouri, Executive Vice President of Princess Cruises in charge of Ship Operations:

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, phil the brit said:

You are wrong I'm afraid, not all of the air is fresh on the ship. In a biohazard lab ALL of the air is fresh. Fact.

I believe you misread me.  I did not say that all air on a ship is fresh air, and I did say that in a level 3 biohazard lab all the air is fresh.  What I have been saying is that 20% of the air in a ship's cabin is continuously supplied fresh air, and 20% is exhausted to the outside.  The remaining 80% is recirculated, but for cabins, that air is only recirculated within that cabin.

[K.T.B.]

35 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

 

I'm sure it's a great article but unfortunately like many,, you need to pay to subscribe to read the full article. 

 

Oops.  I always forget my browser at work allows me to see WSJ articles since my company pays for it.

 

Basically, the ship is going to undergo a very DEEP cleaning, not just on the surface.  All surfaces, air ducts, etc.  All linens and towels completely replaced.  And then back in service in April.

Edited February 20, 2020 by K.T.B.

[sunshine 229]

10 minutes ago, fragilek said:

 Yip I know all that (kind of hope I do lol I was a research pharmaceutical scientist all my working life, and some of my ex- collages are working on this virus right now)- Virus survival - how long it survives without treatment.  Not important once the ship is treated, but it will be important to the crew still on it and the passengers still to disembark.  People branding numbers about with out the support of science is not a good idea. 

And possibly also a consideration when handling items removed from the ship shortly after contact with an infected person. No one has reliable information yet on how long this virus can survive on inanimate objects outside a host. Better to err on the side of caution rather than bandying about time frames like 30 minutes.

[bluesea321]

11 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I did. That was the first video the VP did and it is accurate in that some air in cabins is recirculated through the in cabin cooler to allow the cabin temperature to be adjusted to suit. However in subsequent videos he reiterated the fresh air aspect, noting the the flow had been increased.

 

And personally I believe chengkp75's facts over your opinion.

 

I believe Rai Calouri, Executive Vice President of Ship Operations over chengkp75. He knows his ships, chengkp75 is not on the Diamond or any Princess ships.

 

If you watch Calouri's video he made it pretty clear, the air is partially recirculated through the ship and in the cabins. While they did increase the percentage of fresh air, recirculated air still continues. He referred to hotels, resorts and casinos as a comparison and in those buildings typically 20% of the air is fresh, 80% is recirculated.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=783739805479528

 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

And from Rai Calouri, Executive Vice President of Princess Cruises in charge of Ship Operations:

 

Sigh.  As I've said, over and over.  There is recirculated air in the cabins, just as he says.  It goes through a filter, just as he says.  What he does not say, but what I am specifying is that the recirculated air in a cabin is only recirculated within that cabin.  In the "technical locker" outside your cabin, where the toilet flush mechanism is (that small door in the passageway wall), there is a small duct and fan that takes air from the cabin sends it through a filter, passes it through a chiller, and returns it to the cabin.  This is the air conditioning that is controlled by the cabin thermostat.  The thermostat merely turns this fan on or off, at the set temperature.  How do you suppose that a large AC system that would handle many cabins would control the temperature of each cabin?  The only way would be to have a damper that is controlled by the thermostat that opens or closes based on the temperature.  This would impede the overpressure in the cabin, which is provided for safety reasons, by reducing the air flow into the cabin, and would also result in increased air flow to other cabins, or you would need to have an infinitely variable speed fan to make micro-adjustments to overall air flow as some cabins shut off air when they are cold, and others open the air flow when they are warm.  This ain't gonna happen.

 

And, while I stipulate that Mr. Calouri is qualified to direct Ship Operations (since he holds that position in a major corporation), I don't know that Mr. Calouri holds any engineering degree, let alone one in HVAC.  And, if you believe that his statement was not vetted by corporate legal to say the minimum necessary, then I've got a bridge to sell.

[fragilek]

6 minutes ago, Colo Cruiser said:

Nobody on this thread has any idea except for @chengkp75 who has the training, knowledge, and years of first hand experience to back it up. 

 

Everyone else is an expert.  Not.   🙄

 I would agree completely that @chengkp75 is exceptionally knowledgeable in his field and I have always looked forward to his input in all the threads he contributes too.

 However, some others on here also work in fields related to this issue, doctors have contributed as well as other scientists , I worked on developing antifungal & antiviral treatments among other more interesting tablets 😉 - hope your happy enough to trust using them.

[em-sk]

1 hour ago, voljeep said:

 

 

We will see if the Canadian flights gets off as scheduled.   It is scheduled to depart in 1 hour.

 

Tracking can be found at:  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/MMZ771/history/20200220/1800Z/RJTT/CYTR 

[phil the brit]

32 minutes ago, AlyssaJames said:

Yep, journalists need paychecks too. 🙂

 

Well unless we are all going to subscribe to all of these sources then i really can't see the point in putting up the links. I'm fed up with continually ending up in dead ends.

[JennAngel9]

2 hours ago, phil the brit said:

The Diamond Princess whistleblower professor has pulled his youtube video

 

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/02/4bbd92cd4f91-breaking-news-japan-scholar-removes-videos-blasting-situation-on-virus-hit-ship.html?fbclid=IwAR0JLxGKc8tkXcMBQFfrPFTXK7kcdmhXGjp5tJShH28VYoAgIlmL9mwfc0s

 

Make of that what you will.

 

Wow, he did a lot of media and appeared clearly credentialed (and all of the other ID docs who heard the information seemed to agree with him).  My first instinct would be to assume that he was threatened with libel or some sort of more serious legal threat by local authorities--but that is rank speculation on my part.

[nutensteve]

Your expertise is much appreciated Chengkp75

[phil the brit]

29 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As I said, if this charity were distributing the meals onboard, rather than just delivering them to the ship, that would be breaking quarantine in the worst fashion, and would make the entire quarantine a farce.

It already is a farce, can it get any worse. I wouldn't trust "the beaurocrats who are allegedly running the show" to run me a bath.

[fragilek]

2 minutes ago, phil the brit said:

 

Well unless we are all going to subscribe to all of these sources then i really can't see the point in putting up the links. I'm fed up with continually ending up in dead ends.

 agreed its a pain - but we are not allowed to cut out sections and post up on here it's against cc guidelines and gets deleted.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, phil the brit said:

It already is a farce, can it get any worse. I wouldn't trust "the beaurocrats who are allegedly running the show" to run me a bath.

Again, you do not understand what a quarantine is.  Here is the definition in Merriam-Webster:

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quarantine

 

You will notice in neither the noun or verb definitions any mention of preventing spread of disease within the quarantine.

 

And, okay, you don't trust bureaucrats.  Who else don't you trust, scientists, doctors, professionals of any field?  I guess we all need to put our tin foil hats on and go into isolation.

[Taseko]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I believe you misread me.  I did not say that all air on a ship is fresh air, and I did say that in a level 3 biohazard lab all the air is fresh.  What I have been saying is that 20% of the air in a ship's cabin is continuously supplied fresh air, and 20% is exhausted to the outside.  The remaining 80% is recirculated, but for cabins, that air is only recirculated within that cabin.

We are asked not to leave patio doors open.  I would appreciate your explanation of how leaving this door open for long periods of time would affect the make up of cabin air, considering it is pulling air in from the alley. Why were some door vents taped over and how effective is this when air can still be drawn between the bottom of the door and the carpet?  Thanks

[phil the brit]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Ah, now we come to the rub.  Does that separate air conditioning system use all fresh air, or does it recirculate some of that air back to the room.  You are correct that they will have a separate system for each room, and I did misspeak, but only at level 3 is air not allowed to be recirculated.  Now, just because the air is recirculated within a single room in the lab, does this make this not "recirculated" air, as others have tried to claim?  Why can the lab have a separate AC system that recirculates air, and a cruise ship cabin cannot?

 

NOW we agree.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Taseko said:

We are asked not to leave patio doors open.  I would appreciate your explanation of how leaving this door open for long periods of time would affect the make up of cabin air, considering it is pulling air in from the alley. Why were some door vents taped over and how effective is this when air can still be drawn between the bottom of the door and the carpet?  Thanks

The balcony door does not affect the cabin AC (that system that recirculates the air within the cabin, and is controlled by the cabin thermostat).  The balcony door affects the separate AC system that provides fresh air into the cabins.  There is a system of AC that takes outside air in, cools it, and supplies it to many cabins (typically all the cabins in one fire zone (the area between the doors in the passageway) on one or two decks, so about 40-50 cabins).  This fresh air will increase the pressure in the cabins, since it is coming from outside (think of a fan blowing into a room from an open window, and no other windows or doors are open in the room).  Some of this overpressure is relieved via the bathroom exhaust fan, which takes air from the cabin (via the gap under the bathroom door) and exhausts it outside the ship.  However, the system is designed so that the fresh air delivered to the cabin is more than that exhausted by the bathroom fan, so the cabin is at slightly higher pressure than either the outside or the passageway.  This is done so that air flows out of the cabin into the passageway, to prevent the spread of smoke from the passageway into all the cabins during a fire.

 

So, unlike a hotel or home, make up fresh air is not drawn from the passageway, it is drawn from outside, and the vents into the passageway, and the gap under the door are designed to let air out of the cabin.

 

Now, throw in the balcony door.  Opening this large area (compared to the ventilation duct size) to the lower pressure outside, causes the pressure in the cabin to drop to outside pressure.  Now, air will flow from the passageway into the cabin under the door.  This will also cause a much larger flow of fresh air through the fresh air duct into this cabin as the system attempts to rebuild the overpressure.  This will cause the other 40-50 cabins on that fresh air system to get less fresh air, under normal conditions causing those cabins to heat up from the reduced flow of cool air, but in a quarantine, it will cause them to lose overpressure as well, and air will flow from the passageway into those cabins as well.

 

The passageways have their own AC systems, both a recirculation system, and a supply and exhaust system, but here the size of the supply and exhaust are reversed to those for the cabins, meaning that the exhaust fan removes more air than the supply fan does, so the passageway is under a slight underpressure.  Again, for smoke control.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, JennAngel9 said:

Thanks for trying (several times!) to clear up the confusion on air pathways in the cabins. 

 

In light of your comment above, do you think it's dangerous for the passengers from *quarantine* as it was carried out on DP to be released back into Japan public spaces, hotels, mass transit?

I'm assuming (I haven't followed the details of release from quarantine too closely) that those released were tested and found to be negative, and if so, then yes.

[fragilek]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The balcony door does not affect the cabin AC (that system that recirculates the air within the cabin, and is controlled by the cabin thermostat).  The balcony door affects the separate AC system that provides fresh air into the cabins.  There is a system of AC that takes outside air in, cools it, and supplies it to many cabins (typically all the cabins in one fire zone (the area between the doors in the passageway) on one or two decks, so about 40-50 cabins).  This fresh air will increase the pressure in the cabins, since it is coming from outside (think of a fan blowing into a room from an open window, and no other windows or doors are open in the room).  Some of this overpressure is relieved via the bathroom exhaust fan, which takes air from the cabin (via the gap under the bathroom door) and exhausts it outside the ship.  However, the system is designed so that the fresh air delivered to the cabin is more than that exhausted by the bathroom fan, so the cabin is at slightly higher pressure than either the outside or the passageway.  This is done so that air flows out of the cabin into the passageway, to prevent the spread of smoke from the passageway into all the cabins during a fire.

 

So, unlike a hotel or home, make up fresh air is not drawn from the passageway, it is drawn from outside, and the vents into the passageway, and the gap under the door are designed to let air out of the cabin.

 

Now, throw in the balcony door.  Opening this large area (compared to the ventilation duct size) to the lower pressure outside, causes the pressure in the cabin to drop to outside pressure.  Now, air will flow from the passageway into the cabin under the door.  This will also cause a much larger flow of fresh air through the fresh air duct into this cabin as the system attempts to rebuild the overpressure.  This will cause the other 40-50 cabins on that fresh air system to get less fresh air, under normal conditions causing those cabins to heat up from the reduced flow of cool air, but in a quarantine, it will cause them to lose overpressure as well, and air will flow from the passageway into those cabins as well.

 

The passageways have their own AC systems, both a recirculation system, and a supply and exhaust system, but here the size of the supply and exhaust are reversed to those for the cabins, meaning that the exhaust fan removes more air than the supply fan does, so the passageway is under a slight underpressure.  Again, for smoke control.

 That was very interesting, but I am no engineer.  So would that mean that on the Princess Diamond the people who were leaving their Balcony opened as much as possible to get fresh air could of actually pulled recycled air from the corridor into their cabins.  

[phil the brit]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The balcony door does not affect the cabin AC (that system that recirculates the air within the cabin, and is controlled by the cabin thermostat).  The balcony door affects the separate AC system that provides fresh air into the cabins.  There is a system of AC that takes outside air in, cools it, and supplies it to many cabins (typically all the cabins in one fire zone (the area between the doors in the passageway) on one or two decks, so about 40-50 cabins).  This fresh air will increase the pressure in the cabins, since it is coming from outside (think of a fan blowing into a room from an open window, and no other windows or doors are open in the room).  Some of this overpressure is relieved via the bathroom exhaust fan, which takes air from the cabin (via the gap under the bathroom door) and exhausts it outside the ship.  However, the system is designed so that the fresh air delivered to the cabin is more than that exhausted by the bathroom fan, so the cabin is at slightly higher pressure than either the outside or the passageway.  This is done so that air flows out of the cabin into the passageway, to prevent the spread of smoke from the passageway into all the cabins during a fire.

 

So, unlike a hotel or home, make up fresh air is not drawn from the passageway, it is drawn from outside, and the vents into the passageway, and the gap under the door are designed to let air out of the cabin.

 

Now, throw in the balcony door.  Opening this large area (compared to the ventilation duct size) to the lower pressure outside, causes the pressure in the cabin to drop to outside pressure.  Now, air will flow from the passageway into the cabin under the door.  This will also cause a much larger flow of fresh air through the fresh air duct into this cabin as the system attempts to rebuild the overpressure.  This will cause the other 40-50 cabins on that fresh air system to get less fresh air, under normal conditions causing those cabins to heat up from the reduced flow of cool air, but in a quarantine, it will cause them to lose overpressure as well, and air will flow from the passageway into those cabins as well.

 

The passageways have their own AC systems, both a recirculation system, and a supply and exhaust system, but here the size of the supply and exhaust are reversed to those for the cabins, meaning that the exhaust fan removes more air than the supply fan does, so the passageway is under a slight underpressure.  Again, for smoke control.

 

So, two questions about air from contaminated areas that gave probable infection to cabins.

 

1/  Air from a cabin vents to outside. Some of the cabins are stacked in a way that one level overlooks the balcony below. Their exhausted air (containing micro organisms carried in the air from different cabins above) and this then falls onto the balconies below.

2/  If guests left their balcony door open (as many did) and then opened the hall door then all the air in the hall (which probably is contaminated) will send particles into a room.

 

Both of these scenarios will spread airborn infection from cabin to cabin, Yes?

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, fragilek said:

 That was very interesting, but I am no engineer.  So would that mean that on the Princess Diamond the people who were leaving their Balcony opened as much as possible to get fresh air could of actually pulled recycled air from the corridor into their cabins.  

Yes.  And if you've ever done this, you know that when you open the passageway door when the balcony door is open, the wind tunnel created will blow every scrap of paper right out the balcony door.

[fragilek]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes.  And if you've ever done this, you know that when you open the passageway door when the balcony door is open, the wind tunnel created will blow every scrap of paper right out the balcony door.

 Only had a balcony twice - the last on the Edge and what I did notice was if the window was down it was very hard to push open the door to the room from corridor to in cabin

Edited February 20, 2020 by fragilek