Diamond Princess passenger "tested positive for Wuhan coronavirus"

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

The air is partially recirculated, not all fresh.  Princess has confirmed this.  However, it has not been determined if this is spreading the virus.

 

9 hours ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

He is incorrect.  See post 2497 a few pages back.

 

9 hours ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

Look at post 2497.  

 

9 hours ago, cruiserchuck said:

 

https://www.facebook.com/PrincessCruises/videos/783739805479528/

 

Beginning at 1:46, he discusses that the air is partially recirculated in cabins and public areas.  If the air was only recirculated with air from the same cabin, I am confident he would have said so.  So I believe the Executive Vice President of Princess over chengkp75 or you.

I have always said that there is recirculated air in the cabins, just as this VP said.  I, however, stated that the air is recirculated strictly within that cabin, while he did not specify anything.  He says that the fresh air is "maximized", but does he say how this is done?  No, he does not provide any technical details.  And, I have always said that the public spaces have recirculated air, some being from multiple public spaces.  So, believe who you will, but think about the amount of ducting that would be required to supply and return cabin recirculation air, and the large fans, air handlers and filters that would be needed, over a single cabin recirculation system where the duct is only from that cabin and back to that cabin, and the air handler and fan can fit under a bathroom vanity.  Which way do you think the cruise lines would design?  More wasted space for ducting and larger air handling rooms, or more cabins?

[Host CJSKIDS]

16 minutes ago, voljeep said:

so, as the final passengers are now or soon to be departed … what happens to the Diamond Princess , and also the staff and crew ?

 

 

The staff and crew will be starting their own two week quarantine on the ship and then all are being given two months off with pay.  

 

Not quite sure that Princess has actually released the full plans for the ship, but one would assume that things may be replaced and the ship will need a massive cleaning and scrub down. As the rooms have had people in them for weeks without being really cleaned and there was the virus on boards, it's got to be a daunting task for sure. 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, phil the brit said:

 

 

So why are they now taping up the air vents outside each room. i don't buy the air con is not part of the problem.

The air vents outside the cabins are merely a return vent that provides the path for the overpressure in the cabin to relieve itself into the passageway.  The passageway has its own recirculation air system, separate from the cabins.  As I've said before, the cabins are kept at a higher pressure than the passageways to prevent smoke from a fire from travelling down the passageway and filling the rest of the cabins with smoke.  So, in an abundance of caution, since both the WHO and CDC don't believe the virus can be transmitted through an AC duct system, but can be transmitted over about 6 feet by droplets, these direct vents from the cabin to a public space are taped over, forcing the excess pressure to vent out below the door, hence further from someone who might inhale just after someone in the cabin sneezed at the vent.

 

Do you believe that each room in a hospital, even in anything short of a level 3 biohazard lab has separate air conditioning systems for each room?  They don't.

[Bollycats]

7 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

 

The staff and crew will be starting their own two week quarantine on the ship and then all are being given two months off with pay.  

 

Not quite sure that Princess has actually released the full plans for the ship, but one would assume that things may be replaced and the ship will need a massive cleaning and scrub down. As the rooms have had people in them for weeks without being really cleaned and there was the virus on boards, it's got to be a daunting task for sure. 

We see how well (not) the quarantine went for passengers so now they're putting the crew in the passenger rooms? And then the crew leaves for their home countries for 2 months paid leave. I'm thinking this isn't such a good idea.....

[PoohUnderstands]

8 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

 

The staff and crew will be starting their own two week quarantine on the ship and then all are being given two months off with pay.  

 

Not quite sure that Princess has actually released the full plans for the ship, but one would assume that things may be replaced and the ship will need a massive cleaning and scrub down. As the rooms have had people in them for weeks without being really cleaned and there was the virus on boards, it's got to be a daunting task for sure. 

Definitely needs a very thorough cleaning, but you have to remember that this virus can only in its best environment(i.e. best humidity levels and temperature) live 30 minutes tops outside of a host (human or animal).  So really, basically, they just need to take everyone off the ship they can and the virus will die.  Then come back in and clean away!!

 

Pooh

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

 

The staff and crew will be starting their own two week quarantine on the ship and then all are being given two months off with pay.  

 

Not quite sure that Princess has actually released the full plans for the ship, but one would assume that things may be replaced and the ship will need a massive cleaning and scrub down. As the rooms have had people in them for weeks without being really cleaned and there was the virus on boards, it's got to be a daunting task for sure. 

Not sure what would need to be replaced, other than some items like menus.  Both soft and hard surfaces will get several foggings with Virkon, they may steam clean the carpeting.  Even mattresses will get treated with Virkon, the same chemical used to treat for noro outbreaks.  I have the feeling that most of the time out of service will be simply to have a significant time period without viable hosts onboard, so the virus can be killed by sanitizing agents without possible recontamination.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, Bollycats said:

We see how well (not) the quarantine went for passengers so now they're putting the crew in the passenger rooms? And then the crew leaves for their home countries for 2 months paid leave. I'm thinking this isn't such a good idea.....

By placing crew in pax cabins, they can separate them into individual quarantines, rather than 2-4 living together.

[K.T.B.]

14 minutes ago, Host CJSKIDS said:

 

 

The staff and crew will be starting their own two week quarantine on the ship and then all are being given two months off with pay.  

 

Not quite sure that Princess has actually released the full plans for the ship, but one would assume that things may be replaced and the ship will need a massive cleaning and scrub down. As the rooms have had people in them for weeks without being really cleaned and there was the virus on boards, it's got to be a daunting task for sure. 

 

I posted this link on the previous page:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-cruise-ship-will-set-sail-again-in-aprilafter-a-thorough-cleaning-11582195707

 

Sharing it here for those who missed it.

[Hotdog 52]

So an inside or ov cabin would be best for quarantines.  Easiest to maintain the small positive pressure, until you open the cabin door.

[dog]

17 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

By placing crew in pax cabins, they can separate them into individual quarantines, rather than 2-4 living together.

Agree!

 

Let's hope they only use the cabins where all occupants tested negative at the time of disembarking.

 

Who will bring the crew their meals that are now being made off the ship?

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, dog said:

Agree!

 

Let's hope they only use the cabins where all occupants tested negative at the time of disembarking.

 

Who will bring the crew their meals that are now being made off the ship?

This is where most people's understanding of quarantines break down.  You will not have people breaking the quarantine to deliver meals.  They will be placed in an "airlock" chamber by uninfected people in the uninfected "outside" environment, who will then be decontaminated before being allowed out into the outside environment.  Inside the quarantine, there will still be crew who will deliver these meals to the rest of the crew.  There will also be engineers who will be working, and moving around the ship to keep the ship running.  Quarantine is not about protecting those within the quarantined environment, it is about keeping the infection from spreading to the outside environment.  Anyone caught in a quarantine situation should know from history that there is a significant chance of them becoming infected.  By limiting the social interaction of crew by placing them in single cabins, you reduce their risk of infection, and use of basic protocols (masks, gloves, etc) reduces this further, but there is always a chance of those within a quarantine environment of becoming infected, and epidemiologists know this.

[maryann2]

Another update from David and Sally. He posted 8 hours ago with a lovely photo of Sally smiling. They are in the same room and have had EKG blood work and Xrays done.

[fragilek]

27 minutes ago, PoohUnderstands said:

Definitely needs a very thorough cleaning, but you have to remember that this virus can only in its best environment(i.e. best humidity levels and temperature) live 30 minutes tops outside of a host (human or animal).  So really, basically, they just need to take everyone off the ship they can and the virus will die.  Then come back in and clean away!!

 

Pooh

 Can you say where you got that 30 mins info from as I have not seen any papers on this virus and it's survival time.  At the moment I was under the impression that most calls on this are being made from previous similar viruses.  If I have missed a paper then can you direct me as I will be very interested to read it.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronaviruses-how-long-can-they-survive-on-surfaces

 

https://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html

 

The is no actual info verified for this virus the scientists are working at the moment with the assumption it will behave in a similar manner to other similar viruses.

 

Note that how long it survives for is not the only factor to take into account.  Most viruses that do survive for longer periods of time loose some (and that can be most) of their potency way before the die off, again we do not have the info to know if it will apply to this virus or not.  There are a few that do not follow the same path.

[sunshine 229]

39 minutes ago, PoohUnderstands said:

Definitely needs a very thorough cleaning, but you have to remember that this virus can only in its best environment(i.e. best humidity levels and temperature) live 30 minutes tops outside of a host (human or animal).  So really, basically, they just need to take everyone off the ship they can and the virus will die.  Then come back in and clean away!!

 

Pooh

Seems some scientists would disagree with your "30 minutes tops" estimate. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/17/health/novel-coronavirus-surfaces-study/index.html

Given long enough, of course, they will die but I think it will take a lot longer than a few minutes to be sure that all the virus on board is non-viable. I'm all for a positive attitude but underestimating the seriousness of this doesn't, in the long run, help anybody.

[fragilek]

26 minutes ago, dog said:

Agree!

 

Let's hope they only use the cabins where all occupants tested negative at the time of disembarking.

 

Who will bring the crew their meals that are now being made off the ship?

 crew where no longer doing the making the meals it was a company (may be a charity) I have not heard of in the UK. They started a few days ago

Edited February 20, 2020 by fragilek

[Host CJSKIDS]

38 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure what would need to be replaced, other than some items like menus.  Both soft and hard surfaces will get several foggings with Virkon, they may steam clean the carpeting.  Even mattresses will get treated with Virkon, the same chemical used to treat for noro outbreaks.  I have the feeling that most of the time out of service will be simply to have a significant time period without viable hosts onboard, so the virus can be killed by sanitizing agents without possible recontamination.

 

Thanks for the information chengkp75, always appreciate your knowledge on all of these subjects.

 

 

[AlyssaJames]

1 minute ago, sunshine 229 said:

Seems some scientists would disagree with your "30 minutes tops" estimate. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/17/health/novel-coronavirus-surfaces-study/index.html

Given long enough, of course, they will die but I think it will take a lot longer than a few minutes to be sure that all the virus on board is non-viable. I'm all for a positive attitude but underestimating the seriousness of this doesn't, in the long run, help anybody.

 

This article can be summed up as "we have no idea".

[mking8288]

Latest news coming out of HK's SCMP - 2nd. airlift for Hongkongers currently still on DP delayed until Friday at the earliest, for # of reasons - among them, based on additional news sources (Sing Tao Daily) - that Canada is currently doing a large scale evacuation of their citizens/nationals, and authorities not allowing other countries to do the same concurrently. 

 

Article also cited backlash against one of the HK'er that posted while onboard in "roaming" freely in Japan and risk endangering others, given the negative test results and able to leave DP yesterday.  Additional infections confirmed - up to 56 DP pax from HK, including an elderly woman, conditions critical under care in an area hospital, not improving.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3051499/coronavirus-nightmare-cruise-finally-over-diamond

 

News, rumors & chats are fast paced and nearly impossible to catch up ... some of news from medical circles on the Wuhan/Hubei frontlines claiming that health workers, without fully protected PPE, can risk being infected in as little as 2 seconds, not 15 seconds when in contact/close proximity ... not confirmed/validated.  Frightening just to imagine, especially when we haven't seen red/green zones, Decon & clean/transition and change areas - at least not in those "field" hospitals settings on the mainland.  Trying to visualize how & what could be done onboard the Princess  ... sorry for speculating here.   I know that I was in primary/ambulatory health care years ago with SARS & MERS, the triage & exam rooms have negative air flow filtration; and, engineering subsequently added infrared systems for good measures, as we dealt with at/high-risk walk-in immigrant population from the community, some with unknown recent travel history & could only rely on their self-reporting ... no access to passport pages.  We did had measles cases in the neighborhood that showed up at the nearby ER. 

 

For the clinical mindsets & med pros - this is just a pathology snapshot, FWIW ...  

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3051582/man-killed-coronavirus-had-organ-damage-similar-caused-sars

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by mking8288

[Host CJSKIDS]

39 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I posted this link on the previous page:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-cruise-ship-will-set-sail-again-in-aprilafter-a-thorough-cleaning-11582195707

 

Sharing it here for those who missed it.

 

 

I'm sure it's a great article but unfortunately like many,, you need to pay to subscribe to read the full article. 

[AlyssaJames]

Yep, journalists need paychecks too. 🙂

[Host CJSKIDS]

4 minutes ago, fragilek said:

 crew where no longer doing the meals it was a company (may be a charity) I have not heard of in the UK. They started a few days ago

 

 

The company that is cooking the meals for the passengers and crew on the Diamond Princess is indeed a Non-profit started by Chef Jose Andres.  It's an amazing organization  and they were invaluable after the devastation in the Bahamas from Hurricane Dorian.  

 

Princess is very fortunate that they were able  to help both passengers and crew and I'm sure it provided much relief to those crew members who were cooking. 

 

https://wck.org

 

 

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, fragilek said:

 Can you say where you got that 30 mins info from as I have not seen any papers on this virus and it's survival time.  At the moment I was under the impression that most calls on this are being made from previous similar viruses.  If I have missed a paper then can you direct me as I will be very interested to read it.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronaviruses-how-long-can-they-survive-on-surfaces

 

https://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html

 

The is no actual info verified for this virus the scientists are working at the moment with the assumption it will behave in a similar manner to other similar viruses.

 

Note that how long it survives for is not the only factor to take into account.  Most viruses that do survive for longer periods of time loose some (and that can be most) of their potency way before the die off, again we do not have the info to know if it will apply to this virus or not.  There are a few that do not follow the same path.

But, just looking at your first link, use of bleach, peroxide, or even ethanol can kill coronavirus with only a one minute contact time.  So, since corona is an enveloped virus, unlike noro, alcohol is effective in killing it, and the concentrations in the sanitizing agents used on ships like Virkon, meet the concentrations needed to quickly kill the virus.  Interestingly, the link also states that benzalkonium chloride (which many manufacturers claim as effective against other coronaviruses) has shown "conflicting" results.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, fragilek said:

 crew where no longer doing the meals it was a company (may be a charity) I have not heard of in the UK. They started a few days ago

As I said, if this charity were distributing the meals onboard, rather than just delivering them to the ship, that would be breaking quarantine in the worst fashion, and would make the entire quarantine a farce.

[fragilek]

9 minutes ago, AlyssaJames said:

 

This article can be summed up as "we have no idea".

  They have a rough idea of the window from other similar viruses but you are correct no-one knows for definite that's why quoting figures is a bad idea especially if you are way under estimating the window that science is sure it will fall in (again that can be wrong- that's science for you.  Its here to surprise  & is probably why people like me got wrapped up in it for life.).

In my previous post I linked 2 of the best summaries I could find this.  There is a lot more info in the papers that these quote if your interested.   

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, fragilek said:

  They have a rough idea of the window from other similar viruses but you are correct no-one knows for definite that's why quoting figures is a bad idea especially if you are way under estimating the window that science is sure it will fall in (again that can be wrong- that's science for you.  Its here to surprise  & is probably why people like me got wrapped up in it for life.).

In my previous post I linked 2 of the best summaries I could find this.  There is a lot more info in the papers that these quote if your interested.   

Very true.  This is shown by all the agents that the EPA lists as "effective against norovirus" are actually all tested on feline calicivirus, a close cousin to noro, since it is virtually impossible to cultivate noro outside a human host.