Child Suffered Due to Lack of Passports

[Elaine5715]

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Actually I believe that you need a travel document issued by the Mexican government to do that. Had this been an emergency it is more likely than not that the authorities would have waived the passport requirement and they would have been allowed to fly back (although where they would have gotten the money for that is an open question).

No, they would not 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/before-you-go/travelers-with-special-considerations/cruise-ship-passengers.html

[Underwatr]

31 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

 

Apples and oranges. Look closer.

[ducklite]

16 hours ago, clo said:

I think it was Suze Orman on the Oprah Winfrey Show a million years ago who said "if you lease a car it means you can't afford to buy that car." (Or something like that.) I suppose there are still business reasons to do it but not otherwise.

There are a very few business reasons to lease a car for tax purposes, but they aren't the norm and typically are only for business owners, not employees.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

Those people entered Canada with a valid passport or other appropriate border identification.  They would not have admitted without it.  That is nowhere near the same  as not having the appropriate documentation already vetted.   

Ah, but your paperwork is vetted during the cruise (and at the border your paperwork isn't vetted until your present yourself at the crossing).

[ducklite]

7 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I doubt that you represent a typical traveler (that is not meant as an insult).

Unfortunately many "typical travelers" for the most part shouldn't be traveling.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

No, they would not 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/before-you-go/travelers-with-special-considerations/cruise-ship-passengers.html

When the Carnival ship made all of the passengers disembark in St Marten because of a mechanical issue those without passports were issued letters from CBP (in coordination with the State Department) to board flights directly to the US. I have also read of individual passengers receiving similar clearance in ports without a State Department presence. The regulations do exist to help such people whether you want to believe it or not.

Edited February 15, 2020 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

3 minutes ago, ducklite said:

Unfortunately many "typical travelers" for the most part shouldn't be traveling.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean they "shouldn't". And as I've said before if the "typical traveler" waited until everything lined up just right before taking a trip the travel industry would collapse. 

[Elaine5715]

28 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

When the Carnival ship made all of the passengers disembark in St Marten because of a mechanical issue those without passports were issued letters from CBP (in coordination with the State Department) to board flights directly to the US. I have also read of individual passengers receiving similar clearance in ports without a State Department presence. The regulations do exist to help such people whether you want to believe it or not.

What I posted is from the Department of State.  What you have claim to be exemptions are fables posted here.  

[sparks1093]

Just now, Elaine5715 said:

What I posted is from the Department of State.  What you have claim to be exemptions are fables posted here.  

So you claim it's a fable that a Carnival ship made everyone disembark in St Marten? Well documented both here and in the regular media. You are of course free to believe what you want just as anyone is who needs to make the decision whether or not to obtain a passport for a closed loop cruise. 

[Elaine5715]

34 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Ah, but your paperwork is vetted during the cruise (and at the border your paperwork isn't vetted until your present yourself at the crossing).

That has nothing to do with Canadian Border Officials who release US Citizens back into the US at a shared land border after Canadian Border Officers permitted entry and scanned their entry documents.  A birth certificate is not vetted at boarding.  The non-law enforcement person at the terminal is simply checking that the same name is on all documents

[LoriPhil]

Just my opinion, but if I or a family member was ill enough to require local hospitalization before a flight home, the last thing I would want is be tasked with seeking some type of governmental waiver authorizing a flight without passport, or piling the person in a vehicle for a 30-hour drive back to the use through an unfamiliar country.  For family members without passports, what a great Christmas or Birthday gift - a passport that is good for 10 years, rather than some item that will be out of style or broken within a year or two.

[Elaine5715]

1 minute ago, sparks1093 said:

So you claim it's a fable that a Carnival ship made everyone disembark in St Marten? Well documented both here and in the regular media. You are of course free to believe what you want just as anyone is who needs to make the decision whether or not to obtain a passport for a closed loop cruise. 

There is a difference between the US State Department, St Maarten and Carnival creating an one time means to return 4000 guests to the US and a single family who ignored best practices and is out of the US without a passport.  Give us one example of a solo cruiser or family was exempt from obtaining an emergency passport to return by air to the US?

[2wheelin]

32 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean they "shouldn't". And as I've said before if the "typical traveler" waited until everything lined up just right before taking a trip the travel industry would collapse. 

If they are consistently living in debt (and we have established that your primary residence does not factor in), they shouldn’t—at least not spending what a cruise costs. I think the travel industry will do just fine when you realize the higher discretionary spending now allowed by people who did not spend their lives on borrowed funds.

[Toofarfromthesea]

20 hours ago, celoplyr said:

I didn't read the whole thread but... if you don't have passports, you can get home from Mexico JUST FINE.  You don't need a passport to go through a land border.  You can get from Cozumel to Texas in like 30 hours of driving time, they have buses I'm sure.  

 

Although I think this mother only cared about doing things the way she wanted, not finding solutions so that this didn't get this bad!

 

I'm not sure 30 hours on a Mexican bus with a sick/injured kid is a great solution.

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Liar loans....   lenders were required to accept undocumented documents for people who claimed they owned their own business to boost unserved demographics..  People bought houses in hopes of turning and burning.  They found smart buyers would not pay inflated prices on crappily rehabbed houses as suggested on tv shows and were stuck with houses they could not afford.

 

Yup.  The problem with the 'greater fool' theory is that you can't always find one.

[sparks1093]

20 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

That has nothing to do with Canadian Border Officials who release US Citizens back into the US at a shared land border after Canadian Border Officers permitted entry and scanned their entry documents.  A birth certificate is not vetted at boarding.  The non-law enforcement person at the terminal is simply checking that the same name is on all documents

It's not Canadian Border Officials releasing US citizens anywhere, when you enter the US you are dealing with Customs and Border Protection. You are right, the folks in the terminal are only verifying names but CBP does verify everyone's documents while the cruise is ongoing.

[sparks1093]

22 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

There is a difference between the US State Department, St Maarten and Carnival creating an one time means to return 4000 guests to the US and a single family who ignored best practices and is out of the US without a passport.  Give us one example of a solo cruiser or family was exempt from obtaining an emergency passport to return by air to the US?

And the same regulations that work for the 4000 work for the 1 (and no, it isn't a one time thing). You choose not to believe any example that I give because it's not reliable. Again, you believe what you want to. I have quoted the extant regulations before in discussions with you. If you want me to quote them again, I can. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

18 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

If they are consistently living in debt (and we have established that your primary residence does not factor in), they shouldn’t—at least not spending what a cruise costs. I think the travel industry will do just fine when you realize the higher discretionary spending now allowed by people who did not spend their lives on borrowed funds.

I believe that the number of people who are consistently living in debt is quite high in today's society and they still do all the day to day things that those who have no debt do, including travel. Heck there are people that borrow money to travel.😵

[Elaine5715]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

And the same regulations that work for the 4000 work for the 1 (and no, it isn't a one time thing). You choose not to believe any example that I give because it's not reliable. Again, you believe what you want to. I have quoted the extant regulations before in discussions with you. If you want me to quote them again, I can. 

You haven't ever given one verified   example other then entire ship incidents.  I have presented State Department policy and your response is "They will make an exception" .  They won't.  

[ducklite]

2 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

What I posted is from the Department of State.  What you have claim to be exemptions are fables posted here.  

That actually was the case with that ship.  It's my understanding that people were taken directly to the airport on buses and kept within a sterile concourse if they didn't have a passport.  Those with passports who wanted to stay longer were not required to go directly to the airport.

[ducklite]

3 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

You haven't ever given one verified   example other then entire ship incidents.  I have presented State Department policy and your response is "They will make an exception" .  They won't.  

They will also make the exception to airlift a person without a passport back to a US hospital for treatment in a dire emergency where there isn't suitable treatment available else where.  ONLY the patient can be removed, no family, friends, parents--even if the patient is a minor.  The receiving hospital works with State to obtain a passport which is retroactive.  (That is according to a friend in administration at a level one trauma center in Miami.  I actually called her to ask how it works.)

[Charles4515]

44 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

You haven't ever given one verified   example other then entire ship incidents.  I have presented State Department policy and your response is "They will make an exception" .  They won't.  

In individual situations they will issue emergency passports. If you want you can say that is not an exception. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Charles4515

[2wheelin]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I believe that the number of people who are consistently living in debt is quite high in today's society and they still do all the day to day things that those who have no debt do, including travel. Heck there are people that borrow money to travel.😵

Absolutely true. Does that mean they should? Lots of people never pay their bills. File bankruptcy and move on. Live off our taxes when they get old. It costs us all when people don’t have sufficient retirement funds to support themselves.

Yup. A few people have learned how to turn things around after being up to their ears in debt but as you said the number living in debt is quite high. I guess I have just seen too many people I grew up around being supported by the state in retirement homes while my parents saved enough to be able to pay the nursing home before they spent on extras. Apparently they were the dumb ones. Self respect is worth a lot.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

You haven't ever given one verified   example other then entire ship incidents.  I have presented State Department policy and your response is "They will make an exception" .  They won't.  

But that ship incident contradicts exactly what the State Department says. Again, in past discussions with you I have quoted the language in the regulations that controls this situation because they are the regulations that apply to closed loop cruises. That language says that the passport requirement can be waived for emergencies or for humanitarian reasons. DHS and the State Department wrote the regulations together and DHS is the one that implements them. You don't accept anything as verified so that's a moot point. People in other threads have given first hand accounts and you disbelieved them.

[Underwatr]

Did we just move the credit card debt discussion into this thread? They closed the last one for drift...