Child Suffered Due to Lack of Passports

[Hlitner]

This has been a long time issue here on CC.  Many of us who are frequent international travelers have long advised that anyone going out of the USA have valid Passports.  There are also a group of folks who insist it is not necessary because a closed loop cruise does not require a Passport.   Many of us have pointed out, for years, that in the case of an emergency.....having a Passport is vital. We do understand that getting Passports is expensive and a hassle.  On the other hand, not having a Passport can become a lot more expensive and even a bigger hassle.  The choice and risk is all yours.  Personally, with more then fifty years of extensive international travel under our belts, we would not consider leaving the USA without a valid Passport.

 

Hank

[clo]

11 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We do understand that getting Passports is expensive and a hassle.

No. If you can afford a cruise you can certainly afford a passport. Hassle? If you have a post office....

[mayleeman]

Plus, the kid in me (who never got to travel 60 years ago) thinks it is cool to have one. Literally allows me to go virtually anywhere on earth. 

 

Not that I do! But it is a step toward crossing off things on the bucket list.

[sparks1093]

9 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

They have travel insurance.  It covers medical evacuation.  BUT, without passports, they cannot be medically evacuated.  

 

Medical care onboard the ship is charged to the onboard account.

 

The option if they stayed in Mexico, was to wait 3 days for a passport, so that the medical evacuation coverage would cover it.  And during that time the child is running up a bill in the Mexican hospital.  But their credit card is already maxed out.  Travel insurance (health coverage) isn't like health coverage in the US.  You pay up front for any charges, and then submit for reimbursement, once back home.  The report is foreign hospitals will not allow people to "check out" if they have an outstanding bill.  Since their credit card was maxed out, they had no way to pay any hospital bill (or hotel bill, either).

 

Since the ship would be returning back to the US at the same time that the 3 day wait for passports would get them back, they opted to remain onboard.  The ship continued medical care for (I forget) 1 or 2 days, there's now an outstanding amount they have to pay the cruise line.  Once the agreement to pay is legally covered, they are free to go.

 

 

I honestly doubt any "overages" in the amounts of money they receive will be repaid to anyone.

 

There are provisions in the regulations that allow the waiver of the passport requirement so medical evacuation is certainly possible without one. The thing is, this wasn't a medical emergency and the child wouldn't have needed a medevac flight, commercial air would have done the trick.

[sparks1093]

12 hours ago, mayleeman said:

And I just hope people on here who constantly tell newbie US cruisers "You don't need passports! Whst're the odds?" will think twice about the consequences of their advice for someone who, despite the odds against it, desperately needs one.

Nope, doesn't change my position at all- consider your own personal risk factors and your own travel needs and choose accordingly. Traveling with a young child does increase one's risk and the younger the child the higher the risk. I will be traveling with my step-granddaughter in August and she will be six. We will be getting her a passport because 1) she's not my child and 2) traveling with her presents a higher risk. 

[sparks1093]

6 hours ago, clo said:

No. If you can afford a cruise you can certainly afford a passport. Hassle? If you have a post office....

It's not just a question of affordability. It would have cost $850 to obtain passports for our first cruise which was only 4 days (family of 7). I did my research and examined our risk and determined that given the uncertainty of our future travel plans that we could forego the passports. There are many who would look at the same situation and make the opposite determination and that's fine. I personally did not see the value in them at that time.

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Read some of the posts on these threads -  a cheap three day cruise might cost just a few hundred $ per - adding $100 or so for a passport they think they will never use makes the cruise not affordable.  With cruising being the bargain vacation it has become, it attracts people on very tight budgets who are not in a position to pay any additional $.

 

The cruise lines effectively lobbied Congress to permit the “closed loop” concept - knowing that the money people would save if they did not have to get passports would wind up being spent on cruises.

I just took one of my sons to get his first passport and all in it cost $160. For a family of 4 that's $640. One can afford that and at the same time realize that it's not necessarily the best expenditure of money, for them and their circumstances. Congress didn't write the regulations, DHS did and as I understand it they continued a practice that existed prior to the regulations being written. They determined that a US citizen on a closed loop cruise presents a low risk to the National Security and that is why the exception exists (and it's only 1 exception of 12, IIRC, so there are other times when something other than a passport may be used), had they concluded otherwise I doubt that any amount of "lobbying" would have made a bit of difference.

[Joebucks]

Always victims. We weren't allowed to skate law. We didn't want to buy passports. We don't want to pay these bills. We chose to cruise, therefore the cruise should own our problems.

[Underwatr]

20 hours ago, Mike981 said:

No insurance,

The article says they bought travel insurance. If they're perseverant they should get most or all of the medical expense back, but it will take a few months.

[Mike981]

I saw that they had no insurance on the Facebook link. Glad to hear they can get their money back, I'm still confused on why they need a funding drive. Admittedly I am a bit sensitive to possible abuse of peoples generosity and how it hurts those truly in need.

I'm sure it's like the old saying, there are three sides to the conversation. What she said, what was told to her, and what was really said between all parties.

[ducklite]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Read some of the posts on these threads -  a cheap three day cruise might cost just a few hundred $ per - adding $100 or so for a passport they think they will never use makes the cruise not affordable.  With cruising being the bargain vacation it has become, it attracts people on very tight budgets who are not in a position to pay any additional $.

 

The cruise lines effectively lobbied Congress to permit the “closed loop” concept - knowing that the money people would save if they did not have to get passports would wind up being spent on cruises.

The problem is that people think they are entitled to vacations--particularly the people who really shouldn't be taking them based on their finances.

[ducklite]

9 hours ago, mayleeman said:

Plus, the kid in me (who never got to travel 60 years ago) thinks it is cool to have one. Literally allows me to go virtually anywhere on earth. 

 

Not that I do! But it is a step toward crossing off things on the bucket list.

I get a little thrill looking through the various stamps--many from countries I didn't think I'd ever be able to visit in my wildest dreams.  This year I'll have my feet on the ground in Russia, Lithuania, Cuba, and Estonia.  This Cold War kid who had air raid drills in school gets goosebumps thinking about it!  🙂 🙂 🙂 

[sparks1093]

7 minutes ago, ducklite said:

The problem is that people think they are entitled to vacations--particularly the people who really shouldn't be taking them based on their finances.

You can say the same thing about owning an expensive car or owning a house. Our society has been a "do it now, pay for it later" one for decades so this is nothing new.

[mayleeman]

@sparks1093 The problem is that most responses to questions from newbies do not give any advice about what the risks of not having passports might be. I have seen people then try to inform the questioner about med evacs, etc, and in reply there is a deluge of posts about how the odds are so low, never had a problem, etc. 

 

I agree people can and should assess the risks to make the decision, but it is very hard to have any idea what that means without reading extensively on CC for example. Percentage odds against needing it are meaningless in and of themselves (not saying that is how you do it; speaking generally). 

 

Here, the ability to use her travel insurance medical evac policy was useless--a novice like her might have no idea.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by mayleeman

[ducklite]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

You can say the same thing about owning an expensive car or owning a house. Our society has been a "do it now, pay for it later" one for decades so this is nothing new.

I think owning a house is a different story. Very, very few people can pay cash for a first home.  It absolutely makes sense to have an affordable mortgage on a home. Typically the equity earned over the years is far more than you'd earn paying rent while trying to save to buy a home outright.  I'm not advocating buying a home that eats up over 25% of wages, but a home well within ones means is typically a very good investment.

[sparks1093]

1 minute ago, mayleeman said:

@sparks1093 The problem is that most responses to questions from newbies do not give any advice about what the risks of not having passports might be. I have seen people then try to inform the questioner about med evacs, etc, and in reply there is a deluge of posts about how the odds are so low, never had a problem, etc. 

 

I agree people can and should assess the risks to make the decision, but it is very hard to have any idea what that means without reading extensively on CC for example. Percentage odds against needing it are meaningless in and of themselves (not saying that is how you do it; speaking generally). 

 

Here, the ability to use her travel insurance medical evac policy was useless--a novice might have no idea.

 

 

I have participated in many, many threads on this topic and I assure you that posters do a very good job of informing them of the risks. Yes, analyzing one's risk (realistically) is a time consuming process but it is what needs to be done. Fortunately the risk is low for the majority of passengers and even if someone doesn't do the proper due diligence it still works out for them.

[sparks1093]

1 minute ago, ducklite said:

I think owning a house is a different story. Very, very few people can pay cash for a first home.  It absolutely makes sense to have an affordable mortgage on a home. Typically the equity earned over the years is far more than you'd earn paying rent while trying to save to buy a home outright.  I'm not advocating buying a home that eats up over 25% of wages, but a home well within ones means is typically a very good investment.

I'm not talking about people buying homes within their means, I'm talking about people who are stretched to the max in order to buy a home.

[Charles4515]

11 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Read some of the posts on these threads -  a cheap three day cruise 

 

The cruise lines effectively lobbied Congress to permit the “closed loop” concept - knowing that the money people would save if they did not have to get passports would wind up being spent on cruises.

 

Carnival had and may still have up a web page touting that a passport is not needed to cruise. 

[RocketMan275]

33 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I'm not talking about people buying homes within their means, I'm talking about people who are stretched to the max in order to buy a home.

Realtors often say, oh you can buy a much larger house, up to 35% of your income.

Had friends who used to ask, why are you driving that car, you could be driving a Mercedes.  

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Carnival had and may still have up a web page touting that a passport is not needed to cruise. 

No skin off Carnival's nose.

[sparks1093]

Just now, Charles4515 said:

 

Carnival had and may still have up a web page touting that a passport is not needed to cruise. 

Carnival, like other travel providers, recommends a passport. They do however provide a list of alternate documents that may be used.

From their FAQ:

Proper travel documentation is required at embarkation and throughout the cruise. Even though a guest has completed registration using Online Check-in, it is still the responsibility of the guest to present the required travel documents at the time of embarkation. Guests should check with their travel agent and/or government authority to determine the travel documents necessary for each port of call. Any guest without proper documents will not be allowed to board the vessel and no refund of the cruise fare will be issued. Carnival assumes no responsibility for advising guests of proper travel documentation.

 

Carnival highly recommends that all guests travel with a passport valid for at least six months beyond completion of travel. This will enhance the debarkation experience as delays may be expected upon return to the United States for those without one. Additionally, this will enable guests to fly from the United States to meet their ship at a foreign port should they miss their scheduled port of embarkation and allow guests who must disembark the ship before their cruise ends due to an emergency to fly back to the United States without significant delays and complications.

[Charles4515]

Here is a link to the Carnival web page I mentioned.
 

https://www.carnival.com/awaywego/cruising-fun/how-to-plan/places-to-cruise-without-a-passport

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Charles4515

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Here is a link to the Carnival web page. 
 

https://www.carnival.com/awaywego/cruising-fun/how-to-plan/places-to-cruise-without-a-passport

 

I wouldn't even know where to go to find that had you not provided a link and I've never seen it before, the FAQ is accessible from their home page.

[Charles4515]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I wouldn't even know where to go to find that had you not provided a link and I've never seen it before, the FAQ is accessible from their home page.

 

It comes up if you google "can you cruise without a passport" or something like that. It is the top hit that comes up for me.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Charles4515

[mayleeman]

@Charles4515  @sparks1093

 

Certainly no warning from Carnival. In fact, the page cited by Charles specifically excludes cruises from the idea that passports are recommended! Wow, the effect is to say no need at all. Certainly no discussion of any risks. 

 

When traveling outside of the U.S. a passport is always recommended, but cruises are the exception to the rule.